Philharmonic Audio - 3-way open back ML-TQWTs designed by Dennis Murphy

[KEW]

I'm just inquiring if it's possible to complement the philharmonic 3 (setting to large) with additional 1 or 2 subs without sacrificing the scans. *SR6005 is capable of 5.2 if I bi-amp the philharmonic 3. *

If you set the subs for ~30Hz crossover, that follow the Old school approach.
Since the bass signal to your mains is not being diminished in any way, adding the subs with crossover at 80Hz would be adding bass (from the sub) to an already balanced system (the Phil3's). This should result in too much bass in the 30-80Hz range. However, it never hurts to try - We can (and do) talk theory all day!

 

[Tomorrow]

Since its conception, this issue has been a source of audio user confusion and puzzled many of us for a long time.

The LFE is the separate digital channel (e.g. the .1 in 5.1), originally invented by Dolby engineers for movie theaters. This LFE signal is separate and distinct from "low bass"...the low frequency information (non-LFE) sent to the mains when they are set to "large".

When you have your receiver set to "Both" or "LFE+Bass", that means only that the receiver is sending the LFE channel and the "low bass" ("redirected bass") signal (below the receiver's crossover setting) to the subwoofer. LFE NEVER goes to the mains unless your system has a capability that allows for sending both the full-range and LFE to the mains...typically an arrangement where the mains have built-in powered subwoofers and an rca input jack.

 

[Irvrobinson]

If you set the subs for ~30Hz crossover, that follow the Old school approach.
Since the bass signal to your mains is not being diminished in any way, adding the subs with crossover at 80Hz would be adding bass (from the sub) to an already balanced system (the Phil3's). This should result in too much bass in the 30-80Hz range. However, it never hurts to try - We can (and do) talk theory all day!

It depends on the room, the bass extension of the mains, placements of the mains, output level of the sub(s), and placement of the sub(s). Running the mains full-range doesn't always result in too much bass when you add subs.

 

[fuzz092888]

Please explain why this setting would put the main speakers at risk.
Nowhere in Ed's comments does it mention LFE going to the mains (which would, indeed, be dangerous).

I have to believe that in "Pure Direct" the LFE+Main setting sends the full range signal to the subs without any DSP crossover, which I see as a very useful feature! This fits the "old school" model and allows you to set the crossover at the sub to complement your mains (~30Hz for the Phil3's).

I stand corrected on the LFE, but that still doesn't change the fact that by running your mains as large they are getting the full range of content. The phils aren't designed to run full range at reference levels in large rooms and possibly even some medium rooms. Obviously this depends on room, content, and power supply, but I'll still make the argument that running them large and playing loudly won't end well. Now I'd like to point out that my position has been at least somewhat specific. More or less Phils + Large + Loud = (possibly) Bad. I never said it was always a bad idea or that it sounds bad (although I did say it could lead to overwhelming bass) or anything like that, but I can tell you from experience that running the Phils full range and creeping the volume too high could damage the woofers.

If you don't believe me set them to large and play Transformers or something else with a ton of deep, low content and see what happens to the scans. This is especially true if you have them hooked up to a potent power supply that's capable of sending hundreds of watts of power into the speakers when they call for it. Try the 1812 overture with those digitally recorded cannons at near or at reference. There is risk there when running full range.

The Phils produce tremendous bass with the 8" scan and thanks to the TL, but in the end it is an 8" driver. At moderate volumes there shouldn't be any issues running full range, at higher volumes it seems like an unnecessary risk to me, but to each his own.

My only point was and has been that IMO when you set the Phils to large and run LFE+Main, you gain an increased chance of damaging the woofers because as you start to increase the volumes to near reference or reference you have an 8" woofer trying to blast <15Hz all the way up to its crossover point. Again, this is specific in the sense that it only applies to people who like to listen loudly.

Hope that cleared everything up and thanks to Tomorrow for a better explanation of LFE

 

[ahblaza]

Since its conception, this issue has been a source of audio user confusion and puzzled many of us for a long time.

The LFE is the separate digital channel (e.g. the .1 in 5.1), originally invented by Dolby engineers for movie theaters. This LFE signal is separate and distinct from "low bass"...the low frequency information (non-LFE) sent to the mains when they are set to "large".

When you have your receiver set to "Both" or "LFE+Bass", that means only that the receiver is sending the LFE channel and the "low bass" ("redirected bass") signal (below the receiver's crossover setting) to the subwoofer. LFE NEVER goes to the mains unless your system has a capability that allows for sending both the full-range and LFE to the mains...typically an arrangement where the mains have built-in powered subwoofers and an rca input jack.

Thank you Tomorrow for this very useful and easily understood explanation, that really helps.
Jeff

 

[KEW]

I had this exact discussion with Ed at SVS last week. Our discussion was in reference to the Phil3's, but could apply to any full range speakers (with flat FR through the bass region). The following are key points I took away from our conversation:

1) Old School - No AVR (or equivalent) performing bass management and want to add sub(s) to full range speakers. Set the sub's low pass filter at 25-30Hz (or as close as your sub allows). If your subwoofer amp has the ability, you should match your speakers natural low frequency roll-off for both frequency and rate (order) of roll-off.
He said transmission-line speakers like the Phils normally have a forth order roll-off, but check with Philharmonic Audio to confirm.

2) No School - blindly adding subs without any bass management (or, at least, lowering the crossover point on the sub to ~30Hz) - the bass will be way overblown. If you turn the sub volume down enough to have smooth FR, you are essentially removing the sub from the system.

3) New School - with AVR. Set the main speakers to small and set the crossover point approximately 30Hz above the natural roll-off frequency of the speakers (55-60Hz for the Phil3). This allows the AVR to roll off the bass without concern that the speakers natural roll off will interfere. It also prevents the woofer from having to perform near the limits of its ability (if loud). No matter how good it is, the scan is still an 8" woofer.
Ed feels Audyssey (at the level of MultEQ XT or XT 32) is a better product than any of the other mainstream Room EQ products.

4) The notion of adding two subs to give the node cancelling effect of having 4 subs is generally misguided because the speakers and the sub(s) should not both play the same frequency (except for overlap in the crossover region).

After I posted the above, I asked Ed to review it and make corrections and comments. He didn't recognize by the link I sent him that it was already posted. Here is the response he PM'ed to me:

Hi Kurt:

It's a bit convoluted right now. Try this...

No digital bass management:

determine roll-off frequency and slope of speaker
match the low pass frequency and slope for the subwoofer as closely as possible
physically time-align speakers and subwoofers

Digital bass management:

Almost all AVRs have a high pass and low pass slope disparity (12 dB/octave HPF and 24 dB/octave LPF) in the AVR.

Select a speaker/subwoofer crossover which most closely matches the natural roll-off of the speakers (possibly a bit higher).

Running the speakers on full-range and then selecting 'double bass' (i.e., sub gets a duplicate signal) results in heavy low-end because the speakers and sub are overlapping over a large portions of the speaker pass band.
__________________
Ed Mullen
Director - Technology and Customer Relations
SVSound
Sound Experts | High Performance Audio Products at Manufacturer Direct Prices - SVS
custservice@svsound.com

"What We Do In Life, Echoes In Eternity"

 

[frsimms]

My friend got Philharmonic 2s last winter he agreed to have them delivered to my house and I wrote a review of them at Audio Asylum. He liked them at my house but when he took them home he was not very happy with them. He said they didn’t move him like my Salk SoundScapes did. He would bug me to leave him my SoundScapes in my will. I felt a little responsible as I was the one that told him about the Phils. I remembered how well the Phils sounded with my cheap Panasonic XR70 receiver so I bought him a similar Panasonic XR50 off of Ebay and gave it to him to replace his old Onkyo. It made a tremendous difference. Like with the Onkyo, I ran his stuff through his TV into the receiver optically. He is very happy now. His system moves him now. I do think he would like it if I left him my Salks in a will, but I don’t think it would bother him if I didn’t.

If your Philharmonic system doesn’t move you then you may be like my friend. You might consider better sounding electronics. It doesn’t necessarily have to cost a lot of money. The used Panasonic was only a little over $100.

Bob

 

[PENG]

LFE NEVER goes to the mains unless your system has a capability that allows for sending both the full-range and LFE to the mains...typically an arrangement where the mains have built-in powered subwoofers and an rca input jack.

I wouldn't say never, if you set the mains to large and subwoofer to "NO", even the .1 LFE signal would be directed to the mains. Polk actually recommends that as the best way to hook up their sub (those that has speaker level inputs) + satellite speaker systems.

 

[fuzz092888]

Actually, I just came across an article from dolby which says that the LFE CAN be sent to the main speakers and is not a subwoofer only channel. So there you go, even more reason to fear speaker damage with LFE+Main.

http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/zz-_Shared_Assets/English_PDFs/Professional/38_LFE.pdf

 

[Tomorrow]

I wouldn't say never, if you set the mains to large and subwoofer to "NO", even the .1 LFE signal would be directed to the mains. Polk actually recommends that as the best way to hook up their sub (those that has speaker level inputs) + satellite speaker systems.

I stand corrected. Thanks for straightening this out, Peng. Fuzz, too. Told ya it was 'fusing.

I completely spaced the "NO SUB" setting. It just goes to prove that getting old really does suck.

 

[PENG]

I stand corrected. Thanks for straightening this out, Peng. Fuzz, too. Told ya it was 'fusing.

I completely spaced the "NO SUB" setting. It just goes to prove that getting old really does suck.

Buy you were absolutely correct about the sub 'yes/no' setting confusion. Even Polk anticipated people to be confused and skeptical about setting sub to 'No' in order to get more bass (go figure right..) as you can see it in the way they convey the message in their owners manual for their subs that offer speaker level input/outputs for best performance with those tiny RM series satellites.

Anyway, people who set their speakers to large just need to be careful not setting sub to "NO" accidentally at the same time. I doubt anyone would do that intentionally and those who do would likely have good reason and know exactly what they are doing.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

I hope you guys all caught my big speech at the Republican Convention. I thought the empty chair was a stroke of genius. The liberal press, of course, panned it. I may have to make their day. Remember now--I'm OLD. So no more confusing talk about subwoofer settings. I still haven't figued out why I have to press the Start button to turn Off my computer. Regards, Philharmonic Clint

 

[Irvrobinson]

I hope you guys all caught my big speech at the Republican Convention. I thought the empty chair was a stroke of genius. The liberal press, of course, panned it. I may have to make their day. Remember now--I'm OLD. So no more confusing talk about subwoofer settings. I still haven't figued out why I have to press the Start button to turn Off my computer. Regards, Philharmonic Clint

Actually, Clint, I was just reading in the newspaper this morning that the Republicans themselves are pointing fingers over who let you make that speech without a rehearsal. I liked it, but you came in #2 with me; I liked Condoleezza's speech better. In fact, I gotta say that as a registered Republican she made the only speech I was really proud of that night. I'll probably vote for these guys, but Ryan needs to get off the Ayn Rand alter, and he needs a better speech writer who can get his facts straight. Well, perhaps I'm being too harsh, every candidate needs that.

It would be nice, just once, to really vote *for* someone, rather than just against the other guy. Perhaps you can use your influential position, Clint, to give Romney some sage advice.

As for that start button, that's a good question for Steve Balmer. Of course, on my computer you power it down by clicking on an apple, or blindly reaching to the back of the monitor for the power button and feeling around until you find it. I can't decide which Steve needed an ergo course more.

 

[Adam]

I'd talk to a chair, but I'm not really sure where the voices are coming from.

 

[Tomorrow]

Anyway, people who set their speakers to large just need to be careful not setting sub to "NO" accidentally at the same time. I doubt anyone would do that intentionally and those who do would likely have good reason and know exactly what they are doing.

Ugh, no good reason. See, coming with advanced age is the notion that rules aren't made for us older...ah...gentlemen. Well, that and the fact that stupid also comes with that age.

I actually, on purpose, tried this setting when I first acquired my Aerial speakers. I was very disappointed in their bass performance. So I thought, "What the hey?! Let's see if these 7" woofers are broken."

WHOA!!! Nope. They weren't broken, but were about to be if I had continued my test very long. I don't recall (another gift of aging), but I think I had Riddick playing. I didn't realize that the drivers Aerial uses could travel quite that far! >--------------<

Once again, humbled....

Now, back to your regularly scheduled D. Murphy interrogation.

 

[GranteedEV]

Dennis, what would you say is the "key" to "making a speaker dissappear"?

 

[Adam]

Dennis, what would you say is the "key" to "making a speaker dissappear"?

Leaving your doors unlocked.

 

[Tomorrow]

Leaving your doors unlocked.

Got the soft toss, didn't you?!

 

[Adam]

Got the soft toss, didn't you?!

Just how I like it.

Wait...are you using a baseball metaphor?

 

[Adam]

Okay, I suppose that I've polluted this thread enough.

I am interested in the real answer to having speakers "disappear." I'm quite happy with my set up, but I've probably never heard a really good one before.