Philharmonic Audio - 3-way open back ML-TQWTs designed by Dennis Murphy

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Running the mains as large and the extra lfe crossed to a sub

Depends on the pre-pro or AVR. On my AVP, 5308, and 3310s, setting to Large and using subs will give me very little bass from the subs. I have to set to Small.

But on my 3312, I can set to Large and get great bass output from my subs.

 

[KEW]

I had this exact discussion with Ed at SVS last week. Our discussion was in reference to the Phil3's, but could apply to any full range speakers (with flat FR through the bass region). The following are key points I took away from our conversation:

1) Old School - No AVR (or equivalent) performing bass management and want to add sub(s) to full range speakers. Set the sub's low pass filter at 25-30Hz (or as close as your sub allows). If your subwoofer amp has the ability, you should match your speakers natural low frequency roll-off for both frequency and rate (order) of roll-off.
He said transmission-line speakers like the Phils normally have a forth order roll-off, but check with Philharmonic Audio to confirm.

2) No School - blindly adding subs without any bass management (or, at least, lowering the crossover point on the sub to ~30Hz) - the bass will be way overblown. If you turn the sub volume down enough to have smooth FR, you are essentially removing the sub from the system.

3) New School - with AVR. Set the main speakers to small and set the crossover point approximately 30Hz above the natural roll-off frequency of the speakers (55-60Hz for the Phil3). This allows the AVR to roll off the bass without concern that the speakers natural roll off will interfere. It also prevents the woofer from having to perform near the limits of its ability (if loud). No matter how good it is, the scan is still an 8" woofer.
Ed feels Audyssey (at the level of MultEQ XT or XT 32) is a better product than any of the other mainstream Room EQ products.

4) The notion of adding two subs to give the node cancelling effect of having 4 subs is generally misguided because the speakers and the sub(s) should not both play the same frequency (except for overlap in the crossover region).

 

[Dennis Murphy]

I had this exact discussion with Ed at SVS last week. Our discussion was in reference to the Phil3's, but could apply to any full range speakers (with flat FR through the bass region). The following are key points I took away from our conversation:

1) Old School - No AVR (or equivalent) performing bass management and want to add sub(s) to full range speakers. Set the sub's low pass filter at 25-30Hz (or as close as your sub allows). If your subwoofer amp has the ability, you should match your speakers natural low frequency roll-off for both frequency and rate (order) of roll-off.
He said transmission-line speakers like the Phils normally have a forth order roll-off, but check with Philharmonic Audio to confirm.

You can see woofer response plots for the Phil 1, 2, and 3 here:

Academic Education | Full Width

The Phil 3 roll off starts a smidge above 30 Hz and is basically 4th order. The Phil 2 begins its roll off higher, which starts out less than 4th order, but eventually transitions to 4th order.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I had this exact discussion with Ed at SVS last week. Our discussion was in reference to the Phil3's, but could apply to any full range speakers (with flat FR through the bass region). The following are key points I took away from our conversation:

1) Old School - No AVR (or equivalent) performing bass management and want to add sub(s) to full range speakers. Set the sub's low pass filter at 25-30Hz (or as close as your sub allows). If your subwoofer amp has the ability, you should match your speakers natural low frequency roll-off for both frequency and rate (order) of roll-off.
He said transmission-line speakers like the Phils normally have a forth order roll-off, but check with Philharmonic Audio to confirm.

2) No School - blindly adding subs without any bass management (or, at least, lowering the crossover point on the sub to ~30Hz) - the bass will be way overblown. If you turn the sub volume down enough to have smooth FR, you are essentially removing the sub from the system.

3) New School - with AVR. Set the main speakers to small and set the crossover point approximately 30Hz above the natural roll-off frequency of the speakers (55-60Hz for the Phil3). This allows the AVR to roll off the bass without concern that the speakers natural roll off will interfere. It also prevents the woofer from having to perform near the limits of its ability (if loud). No matter how good it is, the scan is still an 8" woofer.
Ed feels Audyssey (at the level of MultEQ XT or XT 32) is a better product than any of the other mainstream Room EQ products.

4) The notion of adding two subs to give the node cancelling effect of having 4 subs is generally misguided because the speakers and the sub(s) should not both play the same frequency (except for overlap in the crossover region).

5) Measure your in-room response at your listening position(s) with the mains located for best imaging. If your in-room response is roughly flat to 20Hz, forget subs altogether. If it isn't flat, position one or more subs in the room to achieve flat response in the three bass octaves (20-160Hz). Choose a low-pass filter frequency based on where the mains go uneven. Remeasure. If there's now too much bass overall, or the mains make the bass octaves lumpy, insert a high-pass filter. Choose the slopes for the filters based on what makes the response curves blend best in-room at the listening positions.

 

[Lee88]

I read through the replies and thank you all for your wonderful insight and expertise. Personally, I conclude it's possible to set the full range speakers to large and still cross to a sub without damaging the speakers at where the bass rolls off; ~40hz for philharmonic 1&2 and ~30hz for philharmonic 3. I don't know if my room would present a flat response to 20hz but I know they will be shoved into one corner due to restrictions, so the base would be naturally amplified. I may potentially need to use equalizer to reduce base output as highlighted by Dennis before.

The tradeoff would be if the cross over would be sufficient to justify the use of an additional sub (probably a good one too), price and that I have to enjoy and play pipe organ music all the time. Guess I'm sticking to 2.0, my original plan.

 

[Ricardojoa]

The phil 3 plays down low enough, a sub is not really require. But if you are going through the trouble, make sure you get the phase dial in. Another thing is, what kind a sub are you looking, i would think the SS should have pretty good quality bass.

 

[fuzz092888]

I read through the replies and thank you all for your wonderful insight and expertise. Personally, I conclude it's possible to set the full range speakers to large and still cross to a sub without damaging the speakers at where the bass rolls off; ~40hz for philharmonic 1&2 and ~30hz for philharmonic 3.

Not "at" the rolloff point. About an octave above it, at 55-60Hz (phil 3).

 

[KEW]

Not "at" the rolloff point. About an octave above it, at 55-60Hz (phil 3).

Lee is talking about running the mains as large, so no bass management is being applied. If you are mating to the natural roll-off of the Phills, I think he has it right.

 

[fuzz092888]

I'm confused then because if you wanted to mate a sub with the Phils then it makes sense to set the crossover above the rolloff point so the transition is seamless, no? Which is what you said earlier and isn't what Lee just said. I could be wrong, maybe I misinterpreted something

3) New School - with AVR. Set the main speakers to small and set the crossover point approximately 30Hz above the natural roll-off frequency of the speakers (55-60Hz for the Phil3). This allows the AVR to roll off the bass without concern that the speakers natural roll off will interfere. It also prevents the woofer from having to perform near the limits of its ability (if loud). No matter how good it is, the scan is still an 8" woofer.
Ed feels Audyssey (at the level of MultEQ XT or XT 32) is a better product than any of the other mainstream Room EQ products.

My impression of what Lee was talking about was that he wanted to run the Phils as large while still sending the LFE to the subs so there is some sort of bass management going on. This was not recommended due to power issues and over taxing the scan.

 

[KEW]

I conclude it's possible to set the full range speakers to large and still cross to a sub without damaging the speakers at where the bass rolls off

I assume this is a typo, but to make sure no one is misled. There is no risk of damage to the speakers, only damage to the sound quality if the sub is not properly implemented.

If you are listening to music and your room is not humongous, you will probably get plenty of bass down to 20Hz. There is an effect from room gain which enhances the low end extension. The reason subs and the low end of full range speakers are measured in an anechoic chamber (or some sort of replication thereof) is you would be measuring more room effect and not so much speaker, making it pointless to measure in-room. This is why Philharmonic's in-room measurements do not go below 200Hz.

Personally, I will rob subs from my other system and make the attempt to integrate them using both the "old school" and "new school" approach. However, if I had to buy subs, forget it. I really expect that adding subs to the Phil's is pointless. Additionally, a budget sub will not match the level of definition of the ScanSpeak/Phils.
If, sometime down the road, I re-purpose the Phil's to HT, then I will add subs.

 

[fuzz092888]

I assume this is a typo, but to make sure no one is misled. There is no risk of damage to the speakers, only damage to the sound quality if the sub is not properly implemented.

Not a typo, and yes there is plenty of room for destroying the woofers with settings like this.

Lee said:I have a Marantz sr6005 and looking through its manual, it has the "main+lfe" mode where the mains are run as large speakers with x-over frequencies to the additional subs.

If you are listening to music and your room is not humongous, you will probably get plenty of bass down to 20Hz. There is an effect from room gain which enhances the low end extension. The reason subs and the low end of full range speakers are measured in an anechoic chamber (or some sort of replication thereof) is you would be measuring more room effect and not so much speaker, making it pointless to measure in-room. This is why Philharmonic's in-room measurements do not go below 200Hz.

Personally, I will rob subs from my other system and make the attempt to integrate them using both the "old school" and "new school" approach. However, if I had to buy subs, forget it. I really expect that adding subs to the Phil's is pointless. Additionally, a budget sub will not match the level of definition of the ScanSpeak/Phils.
If, sometime down the road, I re-purpose the Phil's to HT, then I will add subs.

I get plenty of bass in room, but my phils pull double duty and for certain content I like crossing over the subs in stereo. Mostly I use them in direct for music though. For HT purposes, they're always crossed, otherwise I'd kill the woofers

 

[KEW]

I'm confused then because if you wanted to mate a sub with the Phils then it makes sense to set the crossover above the rolloff point so the transition is seamless, no? Which is what you said earlier and isn't what Lee just said. I could be wrong, maybe I misinterpreted something



My impression of what Lee was talking about was that he wanted to run the Phils as large while still sending the LFE to the subs so there is some sort of bass management going on. This was not recommended due to power issues and over taxing the scan.

Maybe you are right, but I had the impression he was talking "the old school" approach (albeit, with an AVR in the mix). This might make sense if you had an inexpensive sub which could fill in some LFE, but you wanted the Phils to handle anything they can?
Otherwise, I agree with you, not sure of the advantage if you have the AVR. Most people who will go the old school route want to entirely avoid DSP, either because they believe it compromises the sound, or because they see learning an AVR as a difficult task.

 

[fuzz092888]

Maybe you are right, but I had the impression he was talking "the old school" approach (albeit, with an AVR in the mix). This might make sense if you had an inexpensive sub which could fill in some LFE, but you wanted the Phils to handle anything they can?
Otherwise, I agree with you, not sure of the advantage if you have the AVR. Most people who will go the old school route want to entirely avoid DSP, either because they believe it compromises the sound, or because they see learning an AVR as a difficult task.

Nope if you see my post above you'll see he said something about a setting on his marantz receiver. I'm relatively sure my onkyo can do this as well. Not a good idea to have stuff like that for people who aren't totally sure what they're doing

I think most receivers these days are coming with either "direct" or "pure" settings which are supposed to avoid DSP, but that also means you have to learn everything else about the receiver which I know many people still have mixed feelings about.

 

[KEW]

Lee said:I have a Marantz sr6005 and looking through its manual, it has the "main+lfe" mode where the mains are run as large speakers with x-over frequencies to the additional subs.

That statement can be interpreted more than one way, so I checked the manual. On page 62 are the following statements:

Subwoofer Mode : Select low range signals to be reproduced by
subwoofer.
• LFE : The low range signal of the channel set to “Small” speaker size is
added to the LFE signal output from the subwoofer.
• LFE+Main : The low range signal of all channels is added to the LFE
signal output from the subwoofer.
• “Subwoofer Mode” can be set when “Speaker Config.” – “Subwoofer”
(vpage 61) is set to “Yes”.
• Play music or a movie source and select the mode offering the strongest
bass.
• Select “LFE+Main” if you want the bass signals to always be produced
from the subwoofer.

So, I think this means the normal signal is sent to the mains but any bass from the main's signal is sent to the sub in addition to LFE.

I'm becoming more understanding of people who think an AVR isn't worth the trouble (and I have three of them)!

Link to pdf for SR6005 Manual:
http://us.marantz.com/DocumentMaster/US/SR6005_U_EN_UG_v00.pdf

 

[fuzz092888]

When the LFE+main playback setting is selected, the low frequency signal signal range of channels set to large are produced simultaneously from those channels and the subwoofer channel.

Ergo, don't do this and play loudly or else you will most likely hurt your speakers

Also don't do this without full range speakers.

The purpose of this mode is to smooth bass response throughout the room. I'm guessing it's for those with less potent subs and full range front L/R to compensate for the subs.

 

[KEW]

When the LFE+main playback setting is selected, the low frequency signal signal range of channels set to large are produced simultaneously from those channels and the subwoofer channel.

I agree with this, but that doesn't mean the LFE is being sent to the mains.

Ergo, don't do this and play loudly or else you will most likely hurt your speakers

Also don't do this without full range speakers.

Can you please explain why you believe the LFE is being sent to the mains? I have searched the pdf manual and read every mention of LFE. Nowhere does it state the mains are ever fed the LFE signal.
Also note that the setting "LFE+Main" is found under the "Subwoofer Mode" heading.

Am I misinterpreting what you are saying?

 

[Lee88]

The phil 3 plays down low enough, a sub is not really require. But if you are going through the trouble, make sure you get the phase dial in. Another thing is, what kind a sub are you looking, i would think the SS should have pretty good quality bass.

Thanks for the insight. Original intend is to run 2.0. I actually factored the price of a sub into mains to justify buying the pricier phil 3. From what i have read and I would agree that it's probably not required.

A friend has upgraded to Svs sub (120lbs) and he is willing to lend me his Sunfire sub (30lbs) to play with. I studied the manual and found this interesting setup of LFE+main. I doubt I'll even try to borrow his Svs sub.

 

[Lee88]

Thanks for the interesting inputs. Instead of trying to multiple quote (newbie to forums), I'll just post a reply. *

I have double checked the manual. *Subwoofer settings are either "LFE" when mains are set to small or "LFE+main" where extra frequency is crossed to the sub. *The sub comes out of a pre-out hence, the Marantz amp is not driving the sub. *It will need external amplification for the subwoofer. *This potentially may not tax the scans, but I don't know and I don't see the connection in my application.

While I'm no audiophile expert, I find it pretty straight forward. *"LFE" is the new school and "LFE+main" is a version of the old school where base management is done by the receiver. *It also notes that if sub is set to LFE and front and center set to large, there may not be sound from the sub depending on the types of recording. *If mains are set to small, it defeats the purpose of going with the scan and the philharmonic's intended design. I can't comment until I receive (maybe for another month) and hook up my philharmonic 3 and tried it under LFE+main. *

I'm just inquiring if it's possible to complement the philharmonic 3 (setting to large) with additional 1 or 2 subs without sacrificing the scans. *SR6005 is capable of 5.2 if I bi-amp the philharmonic 3. *

 

[fuzz092888]

I agree with this, but that doesn't mean the LFE is being sent to the mains.



Can you please explain why you believe the LFE is being sent to the mains? I have searched the pdf manual and read every mention of LFE. Nowhere does it state the mains are ever fed the LFE signal.
Also note that the setting "LFE+Main" is found under the "Subwoofer Mode" heading.

Am I misinterpreting what you are saying?

I promise you I'm not pulling this information out of thin air. This is from Ed Mullen of SVS

1) The mains get a full range signal.

2) The subwoofer gets the LFE (".1") channel for DD/DTS DVDs.

3) The subwoofer gets redirected bass below the selected XO frequency from any other (e.g., center/surrounds) speakers set to Small.

4) The subwoofer also gets redirected bass below the selected XO frequency for the mains, despite them being set to Large. This in essence duplicates/doubles the bass in the main L/R channels.

Then I also found this from an old Denon receiver and as we all know Denon and Marantz are pretty similar, it's not a stretch to assume the setting would mean the same thing on both Denon and Marantz.

Sorry just click on the image and you should be able to see the whole thing.

Thanks for the interesting inputs. Instead of trying to multiple quote (newbie to forums), I'll just post a reply. *

Multi Quote is easy. When you want to experiment you just hit the little plus sign on all the posts you want to quote and then when they're all selected you hit quote.

I have double checked the manual. *Subwoofer settings are either "LFE" when mains are set to small or "LFE+main" where extra frequency is crossed to the sub. *The sub comes out of a pre-out hence, the Marantz amp is not driving the sub. *It will need external amplification for the subwoofer. *This potentially may not tax the scans, but I don't know and I don't see the connection in my application.

All subs need external amplification from the receiver, well all commercial subs anyways, which is why almost all commercial subs come with a built in plate amp.

While I'm no audiophile expert, I find it pretty straight forward. *"LFE" is the new school and "LFE+main" is a version of the old school where base management is done by the receiver. *It also notes that if sub is set to LFE and front and center set to large, there may not be sound from the sub depending on the types of recording. *If mains are set to small, it defeats the purpose of going with the scan and the philharmonic's intended design. I can't comment until I receive (maybe for another month) and hook up my philharmonic 3 and tried it under LFE+main. *

Call it whatever school you like, but I like to think of it this way. LFE is for when you set all your speakers to small and LFE+Main is for when you have your front L/R set to large, but you still want the LFE from those channels sent to the sub.

There won't be sound from the sub if the setting is LFE because if theres no LFE signal being sent to the surrounds then theres nothing being sent to the sub. Setting the center and front L/R to large means you want to run them full range. Setting the subwoofer setting to LFE means you only want the crossover you selected to kick in for speakers set to small.

I'll also mention that most conventional centers are in no way shape or form set up to run full range.

I disagree. You can set the crossover setting where you like (usually between 40-150Hz depending on receiver). As awesome as the ML-TL and the scan are, for larger rooms, movies and whatever else tickles your fancy you are much better off crossing the Phils over. YMMV, but I don't find anything wrong with crossing over a pair of Phil 3s. For classical type stuff I almost never do, but I will admit that if I've got some Beastie Boys or something else rockin' I'll switch from direct to stereo so that the Phils are crossed so I can tick the volume up just a wee bit more

I'm just inquiring if it's possible to complement the philharmonic 3 (setting to large) with additional 1 or 2 subs without sacrificing the scans. *SR6005 is capable of 5.2 if I bi-amp the philharmonic 3. *

Well that all depends. You may find the setting too bass heavy or you may love it. It really depends on and yes it is definitely possible. On the other hand, depending on what you're driving them Phils with and how loud you're playing it might not be a good idea.

 

[KEW]

Please explain why this setting would put the main speakers at risk.
Nowhere in Ed's comments does it mention LFE going to the mains (which would, indeed, be dangerous).

I have to believe that in "Pure Direct" the LFE+Main setting sends the full range signal to the subs without any DSP crossover, which I see as a very useful feature! This fits the "old school" model and allows you to set the crossover at the sub to complement your mains (~30Hz for the Phil3's).