haraldo Audioholic Warlord Feb 25, 2008 7,914 0 113 63 Endor Sep 20, 2022 #21 Someone got out of bed on the wrong foot here I gotta hear this amp, test at home
Mikado463 Audioholic Warlord Feb 27, 2016 7,568 0 83 Sep 20, 2022 #22 buckchester said: Yes it matters. Why would I pay a premium for an audio product if I cannot hear what that premium provides? Click to expand... No, a premium is the price of the Levinson, $3400 is not a premium IMO but regardless, if for you it is then fine stick with what you are comfortable with ! Last edited: Sep 21, 2022 Reactions: PENG
buckchester said: Yes it matters. Why would I pay a premium for an audio product if I cannot hear what that premium provides? Click to expand... No, a premium is the price of the Levinson, $3400 is not a premium IMO but regardless, if for you it is then fine stick with what you are comfortable with !
B buckchester Junior Audioholic Apr 6, 2016 87 0 6 76 Sep 20, 2022 #23 Wow, touchy bunch some of you are! All I asked was whether those differences were audible or not. I think most would agree that's a relevant question for an audio product. Reactions: Danzilla31
Wow, touchy bunch some of you are! All I asked was whether those differences were audible or not. I think most would agree that's a relevant question for an audio product.
Steve81 Audioholics Five-0 Aug 9, 2012 5,045 0 113 45 Las Vegas Sep 20, 2022 #24 buckchester said: Wow, touchy bunch some of you are! All I asked was whether those differences were audible or not. Click to expand... It’s frowned upon to discuss other products in a review thread. In this case, it’s like bashing a Porsche because your Civic gets you to work just fine. Sure, there are differences, but you still have to drive the speed limit, so what’s the point??? Reactions: Golfx, cpp, PENG and 1 other person
buckchester said: Wow, touchy bunch some of you are! All I asked was whether those differences were audible or not. Click to expand... It’s frowned upon to discuss other products in a review thread. In this case, it’s like bashing a Porsche because your Civic gets you to work just fine. Sure, there are differences, but you still have to drive the speed limit, so what’s the point???
TLS Guy Audioholic Jedi Oct 30, 2007 27,280 0 113 79 Eagan MN Sep 20, 2022 #25 buckchester said: Would you mind elaborating a little? Because I read ASR's review of the 2220 and it looks similar to this Nad to me? Even where the Nad measures better, is that even audible? Click to expand... Over 80db improvement in Signal to noise ratio, will definitely be audible. This is especially true as the number of channels rise. At the moment these units are far too expensive for most to consider using in multichannel AV systems. At the moment development costs are being paid off. In the long run these amps should be much cheaper to produce. Even better they waste less power and don't make much heat. So we will progress to active speakers being the rule. Passive crossovers waste at least 50% of the amp power in most passive speakers. In addition, passive crossovers are highly limited in what you can achieve, for one thing you can only cut and not boost power. So if you have a dip in response, you can only cut either side and waste more power. They are also awash in time smear. The components are bulky and expensive if you use high quality low resistance inductors and avoid electrolytic caps. The real "pay dirt" from these class D amps, will be much improved speakers, and those differences will be highly obvious and glaring. Speaker deficiencies are so prevalent, it makes even significant improvements in power amps inaudible. We will see the death of the stand alone power amp, it will come eventually. Reactions: GO-NAD!, Danzilla31, buckchester and 2 others
buckchester said: Would you mind elaborating a little? Because I read ASR's review of the 2220 and it looks similar to this Nad to me? Even where the Nad measures better, is that even audible? Click to expand... Over 80db improvement in Signal to noise ratio, will definitely be audible. This is especially true as the number of channels rise. At the moment these units are far too expensive for most to consider using in multichannel AV systems. At the moment development costs are being paid off. In the long run these amps should be much cheaper to produce. Even better they waste less power and don't make much heat. So we will progress to active speakers being the rule. Passive crossovers waste at least 50% of the amp power in most passive speakers. In addition, passive crossovers are highly limited in what you can achieve, for one thing you can only cut and not boost power. So if you have a dip in response, you can only cut either side and waste more power. They are also awash in time smear. The components are bulky and expensive if you use high quality low resistance inductors and avoid electrolytic caps. The real "pay dirt" from these class D amps, will be much improved speakers, and those differences will be highly obvious and glaring. Speaker deficiencies are so prevalent, it makes even significant improvements in power amps inaudible. We will see the death of the stand alone power amp, it will come eventually.
Steve81 Audioholics Five-0 Aug 9, 2012 5,045 0 113 45 Las Vegas Sep 20, 2022 #26 TLS Guy said: We will see the death of the stand alone power amp, it will come eventually. Click to expand... They just need to make it happen with a single cable, something standardized that could transfer a digital signal and power over the same line. We do that already with some things (USB, PoE, etc), so not sure why they don’t do it here. Reactions: Danzilla31
TLS Guy said: We will see the death of the stand alone power amp, it will come eventually. Click to expand... They just need to make it happen with a single cable, something standardized that could transfer a digital signal and power over the same line. We do that already with some things (USB, PoE, etc), so not sure why they don’t do it here.
TLS Guy Audioholic Jedi Oct 30, 2007 27,280 0 113 79 Eagan MN Sep 20, 2022 #27 Steve81 said: They just need to make it happen with a single cable, something standardized that could transfer a digital signal and power over the same line. We do that already with some things (USB, PoE, etc), so not sure why they don’t do it here. Click to expand... The digital is no problem. The powering voltage will be 120 in the US and 240 volts in other jurisdictions. You could not have centralized DC supply as there are high and low voltage sections. So they will be code issues. This would not be like running speaker wire. In many case it will not be a huge problem to add AC outlets at speaker locations.
Steve81 said: They just need to make it happen with a single cable, something standardized that could transfer a digital signal and power over the same line. We do that already with some things (USB, PoE, etc), so not sure why they don’t do it here. Click to expand... The digital is no problem. The powering voltage will be 120 in the US and 240 volts in other jurisdictions. You could not have centralized DC supply as there are high and low voltage sections. So they will be code issues. This would not be like running speaker wire. In many case it will not be a huge problem to add AC outlets at speaker locations.
Steve81 Audioholics Five-0 Aug 9, 2012 5,045 0 113 45 Las Vegas Sep 20, 2022 #28 TLS Guy said: The digital is no problem. The powering voltage will be 120 in the US and 240 volts in other jurisdictions. You could not have centralized DC supply as there are high and low voltage sections. So they will be code issues. This would not be like running speaker wire. In many case it will not be a huge problem to add AC outlets at speaker locations. Click to expand... I wasn’t thinking a central DC supply, just a 120V run with the digital signal riding on top. The receiver would essentially be a glorified power strip at that point. Not workable?
TLS Guy said: The digital is no problem. The powering voltage will be 120 in the US and 240 volts in other jurisdictions. You could not have centralized DC supply as there are high and low voltage sections. So they will be code issues. This would not be like running speaker wire. In many case it will not be a huge problem to add AC outlets at speaker locations. Click to expand... I wasn’t thinking a central DC supply, just a 120V run with the digital signal riding on top. The receiver would essentially be a glorified power strip at that point. Not workable?
TLS Guy Audioholic Jedi Oct 30, 2007 27,280 0 113 79 Eagan MN Sep 20, 2022 #29 Steve81 said: I wasn’t thinking a central DC supply, just a 120V run with the digital signal riding on top. The receiver would essentially be a glorified power strip at that point. Not workable? Click to expand... It could be, but there would be red tape. You would need a combined Romex and Cat 6 cable. That would require regulatory approval and still need to be in wall.
Steve81 said: I wasn’t thinking a central DC supply, just a 120V run with the digital signal riding on top. The receiver would essentially be a glorified power strip at that point. Not workable? Click to expand... It could be, but there would be red tape. You would need a combined Romex and Cat 6 cable. That would require regulatory approval and still need to be in wall.
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,056 0 113 Sep 20, 2022 #30 buckchester said: Wow, touchy bunch some of you are! All I asked was whether those differences were audible or not. I think most would agree that's a relevant question for an audio product. Click to expand... It's not audible - THD+N of 0.0003% vs 0.003% vs 0.03%, especially at normal volume, distance and most environments. But we all have our reasons. Some will always stick to separates and some will always stick to big established brands, especially if the SINAD is more than 90dB or 100dB. But like Steve says, probably not a great idea to crash a party and ask these questions. Now if it were another separate thread, especially your own thread (and party), it would be just fine. Last edited: Sep 21, 2022 Reactions: Trell and Danzilla31
buckchester said: Wow, touchy bunch some of you are! All I asked was whether those differences were audible or not. I think most would agree that's a relevant question for an audio product. Click to expand... It's not audible - THD+N of 0.0003% vs 0.003% vs 0.03%, especially at normal volume, distance and most environments. But we all have our reasons. Some will always stick to separates and some will always stick to big established brands, especially if the SINAD is more than 90dB or 100dB. But like Steve says, probably not a great idea to crash a party and ask these questions. Now if it were another separate thread, especially your own thread (and party), it would be just fine.
Alex2507 Audioholic Slumlord Dec 29, 2006 18,125 0 113 Nunya Bidness Sep 20, 2022 #31 haraldo said: Someone got out of bed on the wrong foot here Click to expand... Looks like this sentence started off on the wrong foot and got out of bed on the wrong side. You're gonna make me dyslexic in English with the mixed metaphors. Reactions: panteragstk and Danzilla31
haraldo said: Someone got out of bed on the wrong foot here Click to expand... Looks like this sentence started off on the wrong foot and got out of bed on the wrong side. You're gonna make me dyslexic in English with the mixed metaphors.
gene Audioholics Master Chief Administrator Jul 1, 2002 10,224 0 120 52 Florida www.audioholics.com Sep 20, 2022 #32 buckchester said: OK, but how audible are those differences? Click to expand... Depends on the efficiency of your speakers and how closely you sit near them. I can hear hiss a few feet away with amps that measure like the Outlaw when connected to speakers > 90dB sensitivity at very low listening levels or just sitting in idle. Reactions: Cos, Golfx and Danzilla31
buckchester said: OK, but how audible are those differences? Click to expand... Depends on the efficiency of your speakers and how closely you sit near them. I can hear hiss a few feet away with amps that measure like the Outlaw when connected to speakers > 90dB sensitivity at very low listening levels or just sitting in idle.
D dlaloum Audioholic Chief Nov 18, 2021 908 0 16 61 Sep 20, 2022 #33 buckchester said: Yes it matters. Why would I pay a premium for an audio product if I cannot hear what that premium provides? Click to expand... There's a big gap between State of the Art, and individual audibility thresholds!! Premium kit, is almost always far beyond any audibility threshold.... a bit like the way Rolls Royce used to advertise the power of their engines "Adequate under any circumstances"... and Aston Martin : " More than Adequate under any circumstances". Sometimes it's just about having the confidence that audibility thresholds are far beyond where they would be a concern. Reactions: PENG and buckchester
buckchester said: Yes it matters. Why would I pay a premium for an audio product if I cannot hear what that premium provides? Click to expand... There's a big gap between State of the Art, and individual audibility thresholds!! Premium kit, is almost always far beyond any audibility threshold.... a bit like the way Rolls Royce used to advertise the power of their engines "Adequate under any circumstances"... and Aston Martin : " More than Adequate under any circumstances". Sometimes it's just about having the confidence that audibility thresholds are far beyond where they would be a concern.
B buckchester Junior Audioholic Apr 6, 2016 87 0 6 76 Sep 20, 2022 #34 gene said: Depends on the efficiency of your speakers and how closely you sit near them. I can hear hiss a few feet away with amps that measure like the Outlaw when connected to speakers > 90dB sensitivity at very low listening levels or just sitting in idle. Click to expand... I have Revel F208s with the Outlaw amps, sit about 8-9 feet. I play loud. I hear no hiss. Ever.
gene said: Depends on the efficiency of your speakers and how closely you sit near them. I can hear hiss a few feet away with amps that measure like the Outlaw when connected to speakers > 90dB sensitivity at very low listening levels or just sitting in idle. Click to expand... I have Revel F208s with the Outlaw amps, sit about 8-9 feet. I play loud. I hear no hiss. Ever.
D dlaloum Audioholic Chief Nov 18, 2021 908 0 16 61 Sep 20, 2022 #35 Steve81 said: I wasn’t thinking a central DC supply, just a 120V run with the digital signal riding on top. The receiver would essentially be a glorified power strip at that point. Not workable? Click to expand... We already have systems that allow ethernet network signals to pass over a power cable. No reason you couldn't run one of several Audio over Ethernet standards (streaming) over your power cable. The technology is there today - creating a standard and getting a consortium of sufficiently influential audio manufacturers involved, would be more of a challenge!
Steve81 said: I wasn’t thinking a central DC supply, just a 120V run with the digital signal riding on top. The receiver would essentially be a glorified power strip at that point. Not workable? Click to expand... We already have systems that allow ethernet network signals to pass over a power cable. No reason you couldn't run one of several Audio over Ethernet standards (streaming) over your power cable. The technology is there today - creating a standard and getting a consortium of sufficiently influential audio manufacturers involved, would be more of a challenge!
D dlaloum Audioholic Chief Nov 18, 2021 908 0 16 61 Sep 20, 2022 #36 gene said: Depends on the efficiency of your speakers and how closely you sit near them. I can hear hiss a few feet away with amps that measure like the Outlaw when connected to speakers > 90dB sensitivity at very low listening levels or just sitting in idle. Click to expand... Not saying this is the case here - but in many (most) cases where there have been hiss issues in a setup - I have found them to be related (or at least substantially exacerbated) by gain mismatches between pre and power
gene said: Depends on the efficiency of your speakers and how closely you sit near them. I can hear hiss a few feet away with amps that measure like the Outlaw when connected to speakers > 90dB sensitivity at very low listening levels or just sitting in idle. Click to expand... Not saying this is the case here - but in many (most) cases where there have been hiss issues in a setup - I have found them to be related (or at least substantially exacerbated) by gain mismatches between pre and power
gene Audioholics Master Chief Administrator Jul 1, 2002 10,224 0 120 52 Florida www.audioholics.com Sep 20, 2022 #37 buckchester said: I have Revel F208s with the Outlaw amps, sit about 8-9 feet. I play loud. I hear no hiss. Ever. Click to expand... then enjoy your amp and don't worry about it. Reactions: Tankini, Danzilla31, buckchester and 1 other person
buckchester said: I have Revel F208s with the Outlaw amps, sit about 8-9 feet. I play loud. I hear no hiss. Ever. Click to expand... then enjoy your amp and don't worry about it.
gene Audioholics Master Chief Administrator Jul 1, 2002 10,224 0 120 52 Florida www.audioholics.com Sep 20, 2022 #38 dlaloum said: Not saying this is the case here - but in many (most) cases where there have been hiss issues in a setup - I have found them to be related (or at least substantially exacerbated) by gain mismatches between pre and power Click to expand... It's all relative to where it's being amplified. Adding gain adds noise. Reactions: dlaloum
dlaloum said: Not saying this is the case here - but in many (most) cases where there have been hiss issues in a setup - I have found them to be related (or at least substantially exacerbated) by gain mismatches between pre and power Click to expand... It's all relative to where it's being amplified. Adding gain adds noise.
Out-Of-Phase Audioholic Field Marshall Dec 13, 2017 1,584 0 63 Sep 20, 2022 #39 buckchester said: I have Revel F208s with the Outlaw amps, sit about 8-9 feet. Click to expand... Those are very nice speakers. Reactions: Danzilla31
buckchester said: I have Revel F208s with the Outlaw amps, sit about 8-9 feet. Click to expand... Those are very nice speakers.
P PENG Audioholic Slumlord Oct 23, 2004 19,797 0 113 Ontario Sep 21, 2022 #40 buckchester said: I have Revel F208s with the Outlaw amps, sit about 8-9 feet. I play loud. I hear no hiss. Ever. Click to expand... So that's consistent with what Gene said, "when connected to speakers > 90dB sensitivity at very low listening levels or just sitting in idle." The F208's sensitivity is < 90 dB, not >90 dB as measured by Stereophile and you said you played loud, so the M2220's THD+N is good enough for your use but probably not good enough for someone who uses >92 dB speakers and listen mostly to classical music that has a lot of quiet passages and gaps between movements and does not want to hear any noise. Reactions: j_garcia, gene and buckchester
buckchester said: I have Revel F208s with the Outlaw amps, sit about 8-9 feet. I play loud. I hear no hiss. Ever. Click to expand... So that's consistent with what Gene said, "when connected to speakers > 90dB sensitivity at very low listening levels or just sitting in idle." The F208's sensitivity is < 90 dB, not >90 dB as measured by Stereophile and you said you played loud, so the M2220's THD+N is good enough for your use but probably not good enough for someone who uses >92 dB speakers and listen mostly to classical music that has a lot of quiet passages and gaps between movements and does not want to hear any noise.
