AVR + External Amp VS Seperates

[Kleinst]

Agreed, but I think once someone has his/her mind thinking about the better specs, especially those keen of bench measurements, are prone to buyer's remorse, 2nd thought etc., if they ended up going for something less expensive but have lower specs/measurements. So, paying a couple thousand dollars more for the 6800 may keep him happier longer.

But this is a good one, is there anything the 6800 does that a 3800 with say a Monolith 7x and a Outlaw 7000x can't do?
Or if you were going to use AMPS for most to all channels in both, is there anything that would be different or is the software and outputs to the pre amps exactly the same?

This is a question I should know the answer to but am not sure. If you don't need more than a 5.2.4 setup then what's the difference?

Thanks

 

[Trell]

But this is a good one, is there anything the 6800 does that a 3800 with say a Monolith 7x and a Outlaw 7000x can't do?
Or if you were going to use AMPS for most to all channels in both, is there anything that would be different or is the software and outputs to the pre amps exactly the same?

This is a question I should know the answer to but am not sure. If you don't need more than a 5.2.4 setup then what's the difference?

Thanks

A minor one, unless you need/want it, is that the 6800 has a "dialogue lift" increasing the volume level of speech frequencies for the center channel while the "same" on the 3800 just increase the volume level.

Probably other differences as well, but you'll have to read the manuals for details.

 

[MysticLint]

@MysticLint mentioned a 7.1.6 speaker configuration down the road and a $4,000 budget. In the new Denon models, 13.4 channel processing starts with the X6800H. In the new Marantz models, 13.4 channel processing starts with the Cinema 30. Both units can power 11 channels.

@MysticLint mentioned getting the X6800H for a discounted $3,000. The Cinema 30 will be more expensive and the AV 20 and AV 10 will be much more expensive and require external amps for all channels.

Now, for those who want their AURO-3D cake and eat their Dolby Atmos too, The AV 10 supports 17.1 channel speaker connections for a 13.1(7.1.6) channel AURO-3D configuration and a 15.1(9.1.6) channel Dolby Atmos configuration and will switch the output speakers accordingly based on the audio format.

When wanting both an AURO-3D and Dolby Atmos speaker configurations, the AURO-3D configuration will be compromised as SHL and SHR speakers will be replaced with RHL and RHR speakers. Dolby Atmos Top(Ceiling) speakers will be limited to the TML and TMR speakers. The Front and Rear Height speakers will be FHL, FHR, RHL and RHR.

Marantz AV 10:
View attachment 73911

This is a pisser for those wanting matching sets. The AV 10 supports 17.1 connections but the Amp 10 powers 16 channels. Those wanting 13.1 channels using the AV 20 are also f#%cked as the Amp 20 powers 12 channels.

Now, for those wanting 13.1(7.1.6) for both AURO-3D and Dolby Atmos, the AV 20 supports 15.1 speaker connections. The same Height speaker limitations from the AV 10 would apply here.

Marantz AV 20:
View attachment 73912

In case anybody is wondering, while the Denon AVR-X6800H and Marantz Cinema 30 do process 13.4 channels, they do not support 15.1 connections like the AV 20 or 17.1 connections like the AV 10 and AURO-3D is compromised more still when configuring for both it and Dolby Atmos.

Finally, for those wanting separate AURO-3D and Dolby Atmos 13.1(7.1.6) speaker configurations and a pair of new Marantz components, the AV 20(15.4 channel processing) and Amp 10(16 channels of power) will get it done… for a hefty price.

Excellent points. However, I’m specifically choosing to put my height speakers at 30 degrees. This is within the Atmos ceiling angle specs. Honestly I think this makes more sense that 45degrees.

If you imagine the atmosphere encoded with object based source, that is laid out in a square box. If the sound engineer puts a sound where the side wall and ceiling meet, then that’s where the sound should originate. That’s where your speaker should go. If your speaker is off the wall in-ceiling, then the sound source is shifted away from the wall/ceiling intersection.

I found this video from TechnoDad that cooperates this perspective:

Is this going to be noticeable? Maybe not. But I suspect that the soundstage would be significantly wider if you put the speakers wider. Dolby even came out and said that 30 degrees was a fine angle for peek performance. I suspect the reason they pushed so hard for a steeper angle was because of the Atmos-Auro3D law suit.

However, I’m an Auro 3D fan, so that’s my plan. Also, my space doesn’t need Front Wides. Worst case I’ll miss out on rear in ceiling atmosphere speakers.

Next, if you look at my room map (below), you’ll see two rectangles behind the couch and to the left/right of the 2nd row seats. Those are support columns. They block the angles right where my rear surrounds want to go, therefore my rear surrounds ended up being much closer together. Also, the purple lines are a lowered ceiling (which adds to the difficulty of getting good acoustics). As such, rear in-ceiling or rear heights wouldn’t work well. Or at least not well enough to justify the expense/effort.

Last, I like the Denon x6800h because in the future, if I REALLY do go with separates, it has 2 enhanced modes:

Mode 1. Turns off all of the processing and run exclusively as an external amp for another AVR. Effectively giving me an 11 Channel external amp.

Mode 2. Turns off all amps, isolating the Pre-outs to pair with external amp(s). Similar to a Marantz separate. Granted the Denon 6800h has WAY less copper plating for isolation and grounding, but I suspect that it is minimal.

I do have concerns that if I got a Denon x4800h and external amps, I would have buyers remorse and want to add a VOG and front height speaker.

If I wasn’t getting the denon x6500h for $3k then I wouldn’t be considering it. Still open to other opinions if anyone can offer a good 13 channel pre-pro for under $2500, that I can pair with $2000 of external amps.

 

[lovinthehd]

Keep in mind if you go to amp separates that the Denon can output about 2v during max output before distortion starts to rise so you want a amp that can reach full output at something around 1.6v for synergy and clean sound.

I'm with Peng on the output voltage thing....but how does amp sensitivity translate to "synergy"? How do you define synergy?

 

[PENG]

Now that the AVR DAC topic is brought up I would suggest people don't go by one single SINAD number but look more careful on a curve such as the following:

There are quite a few published on ASR and also a few on Audioholics.com, as well as Masimo/Denon/Marantz:

Note: below are just links to some examples, if you search for more you will find more, regardless, we can see that there are plenty of evidence that indicate Denon, Marantz AVRs can output enough voltage to drive most power amps including those with relatively low gain, say even down to 23 dB (or less depending one's speaker sensitivity, seat distance, and their max spl needs). So, time to stop worrying about not high enough pre out voltage if your choice happen to be one of the recent mid range D+M AVRs.

Audioholics.com:

Denon AVR-X3300W 7.2 Atmos/DTS:X A/V Receiver Review

Denon AVR-X3300W Preamplifier Measurements

One thing I really love about Denon receivers is they NEVER skimp on their preamp out circuits. Like past models, the AVR-X3300W had an ample amount of drive. I measured a whopping 4.5Vrms unclipped output, which is more than double the voltage needed to make virtually any amplifier reach full rated power.

Marantz SR8015 11CH 8K DTS:X Pro AV Receiver Review:

When driven to 2Vrms, the SR8015 exhibited excellent distortion results via the preamp output. THD+N was below .003% for the entire audio band and I saw similar results even when driving the preouts to 3Vrms. This is a clean preamp with plenty of output drive.

Audiosciencereview.com:

Masimo:

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Back when I got the Denon AVR-5308 and later AVP-A1HDCI, it wasn’t about “need” or practicality.

So deciding among the AVR-A1 vs AVR-A10 vs X6800 vs X3800, etc., might not all be about need or practicality.

Pride of ownership, personal perception, possible other features, actual cost and deals are all factors.

 

[PENG]

Back when I got the Denon AVR-5308 and later AVP-A1HDCI, it wasn’t about “need” or practicality.

So deciding among the AVR-A1 vs AVR-A10 vs X6800 vs X3800, etc., might not all be about need or practicality.

Pride of ownership, personal perception, possible other features, actual cost and deals are all factors.

If it was for the "need", most can be very happy with the avr-x3800h, Cinema 50, RX-A6A, RZ30 (limited to 9.2, 7.1.2, 5
1.4).

 

[dlaloum]

If it was for the "need", most can be very happy with the avr-x3800h, Cinema 50, RX-A6A, RZ30 (limited to 9.2, 7.1.2, 5
1.4).

My logical side drove me to the DRX3.4 a few years back....
Wanting ART capabilities will drive an upgrade perhaps later this year or next year....

What I WANT is too expensive to justify easily... so there may end up being some compromise - in the past the balance between value equation and desired features/bling/etc... led to Onkyo SR876, Integra DTR70.4.... the equivalents for which are the DRX8.4/RZ70 (or Denon X6800).

CEDIA 2025 and then CES 2026 (september and january respectively) should be interesting!

 

[olddog]

I'm with Peng on the output voltage thing....but how does amp sensitivity translate to "synergy"? How do you define synergy?

Synergy is when you find two pieces of equipment produce a result more than the just the factor of their indivisible ability but a sound that you find very pleasing. Ever experienced that? I have. I always say they dance well and have a outstanding voice. It's like magic when it happens.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I define “Synergy” as when you hook up your speakers to your AVR or Amp, and they work and sound great like what you would expect.

 

[lovinthehd]

Synergy is when you find two pieces of equipment produce a result more than the just the factor of their indivisible ability but a sound that you find very pleasing. Ever experienced that? I have. I always say they dance well and have a outstanding voice. It's like magic when it happens.

Nah, that's an imaginary thing as far as I'm concerned, and with many many pieces of gear interchanged....they're components and generally quite interchangeable without character. Hard to know what triggers that response in you.

 

[PENG]

Nah, that's an imaginary thing as far as I'm concerned, and with many many pieces of gear interchanged....they're components and generally quite interchangeable without character. Hard to know what triggers that response in you.

People who believe such thing should also keep in mind at the end of the day, logic rules, that is, if it is as defined by them, such so called synergy would be by chance, even if true (always possible to a point..) chance of succeeding would be worse than online dating.

 

[olddog]

So I guess impedance matching, room correction, getting the right cart and needle for you turntable, or trying to find a set of speakers that you find pleasing are all snake oil then?

 

[Trell]

So I guess impedance matching, room correction, getting the right cart and needle for you turntable, or trying to find a set of speakers that you find pleasing are all snake oil then?

It's not what they meant.

 

[PENG]

So I guess impedance matching, room correction, getting the right cart and needle for you turntable, or trying to find a set of speakers that you find pleasing are all snake oil then?

I am not aware of anyone making such silly claim, or blanket statement.

 

[lovinthehd]

So I guess impedance matching, room correction, getting the right cart and needle for you turntable, or trying to find a set of speakers that you find pleasing are all snake oil then?

Impedance matching in what way? Room correction is a feature, not sure how that relates to "synergy" though. The right cartridge/stylus/tt for your needs is just what it is, not sure how that qualifies as synergy....more just the pain that tech is.