Sonos Amp or Integrated Amp for 2 channel Music w/bookshelf speakers

[AVUser001]

Sound & Vision just reviewed the Denon DRA-800H that was thrown (by me, admittedly) into your mix: https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-dra-800h-stereo-network-receiver-review

@John Parks , Thanks..,will look into this and contrast with others on the list.

Given I recently blew the transistors in Marantz SR7010 twice, I'm now more conscious of o/p power requirements into a pair of 4 Ohm speakers like my ML motion bookshelves.

 

[PENG]

Let me get this right.., 75 dB -> 22.5W, 78 dB-> 45 W, 81 dB -> 90W , 84 dB -> 180 W . The 10x (of 225W) for reference level is an approximation ?

My numbers are exact!! Your starting point of 75 dB -> 22.5W is incorrect. From the data you provided, I assume your actual average dB measured was 75 dB, and assuming you had two speakers on. May be I should have assumed just 1 speaker to error on the conservative side.

Let's start again, from the calculator, it should be 75 dB -> 0.225 W
Therefore: 78 dB-> 0.45 W, 81 dB -> 0.9 W , 84 dB -> 1.8 W, and 85 dB -> 2.25, 95 dB -> 22.5 W

That is, for 75 dB average, allowing for 20 dB peak, the calculator would tell you 22.5 WPC will do the job and it comes with a build in 3 dB reserve as the calculator is using peak wattage values and 22.5 W average has a peak of 45 W peak (that's 3 dB).

Now back to your initial 75 dB average that you seemingly need, the calculator shows you need only 2.25 W average. Your need at least 100 X that to ensure your amp doesn't clip on those rare 20 dB peak short moments. 100X0.225 = 22.5 WPC. 10X ->10 dB, and 20X ->20 dB

If you were to target the so called THX ref level, then you need another 10 dB increase, and you power requirement would therefore rise another 10X, that is 225 WPC.

You can see why the how much power do I need and do I need an external amp is such an loaded question.. Every 2X the power output only get you 3 dB more SPL, and for 10 dB more you need 10X the output.

So you'd still favor a X3400(or 3600h) or even X4500( with price reduced) over something like Marantz PM7000N or Denon PMA-1600NE ? I do like the compacts in my office , but the prices are not attractive..

I have no use for those PM and PMA models, no idea why they even bothered.. The AVR-X3600H is such as great deal right now but too bad only in Canada. In the US, I would wait for the SR7013 or X4500H to drop below the $999 mark. It's been there before so I firmly believe it will be back.

Also, saw this note on NAD support for Airplay2 on certain models Airplay2 support on NAD devices. One thing I noticed on these NAD amps is the lower distortion on 4 ohms.. , while the D&M amps have atleast 0.7% THD at 4Ohms with 2 channels driven.

I don't know which NAD devices you referred to. If you look at the ranking over at ASR, the T758 V3's THD+N currently ranked at the bottom of the chart, the T777 did a little better, still rank below D&M's iirc. For those brands that often get promoted by their fans (I guess they paid more relatively speaking so easy for them to hear better sound quality..) such as NAD and Anthem, you practically have pay more for less.

 

[AVUser001]

Let's start again, from the calculator, it should be 75 dB -> 0.225 W
Therefore: 78 dB-> 0.45 W, 81 dB -> 0.9 W , 84 dB -> 1.8 W, and 85 dB -> 2.25, 95 dB -> 22.5 W

That is, for 75 dB average, allowing for 20 dB peak, the calculator would tell you 22.5 WPC will do the job and it comes with a build in 3 dB reserve as the calculator is using peak wattage values and 22.5 W average has a peak of 45 W peak (that's 3 dB).

Now back to your initial 75 dB average that you seemingly need, the calculator shows you need only 2.25 W average. Your need at least 100 X that to ensure your amp doesn't clip on those rare 20 dB peak short moments. 100X0.225 = 22.5 WPC. 10X ->10 dB, and 20X ->20 dB

If you were to target the so called THX ref level, then you need another 10 dB increase, and you power requirement would therefore rise another 10X, that is 225 WPC.

@PENG , Thanks for that clarification. Makes me feel a lot better!

I have no use for those PM and PMA models, no idea why they even bothered.. The AVR-X3600H is such as great deal right now but too bad only in Canada.

AVRs would have a bigger PSU and better bass mgmt and thats certainly a benefit. But reduced circuitry(amp channels, HDMI etc) ,reduced heat is not a benefit to 2 channel music? .. Also, that should give them the chance to introduce better components (& higher wpc at lower distortion) for the asking price - maybe its just a hope & wish , not sure if they actually do that.

I don't know which NAD devices you referred to. If you look at the ranking over at ASR, the T758 V3's THD+N currently ranked at the bottom of the chart, the T777 did a little better, still rank below D&M's iirc.

Was referring to these ones C 368 , C 328 ,C 388

 

[PENG]

AVRs would have a bigger PSU and better bass mgmt and thats certainly a benefit. But reduced circuitry(amp channels, HDMI etc) ,reduced heat is not a benefit to 2 channel music? .. Also, that should give them the chance to introduce better components (& higher wpc at lower distortion) for the asking price - maybe its just a hope & wish , not sure if they actually do that.

As mentioned before, those things don't usually happen because AVRs are helped by "economy of scale". As a result, integrated amps (below the $1,000 mark) such as Yamaha's, and likely some of the newer NAD's too may share some key components with their AVR counterparts. For better components you would have to look to the A-S1100 above for Yamaha, and PM8005 and above for Marantz, or Denon's PMA-SX.

Was referring to these ones C 368 , C 328 ,C 388

I haven't seen any measurements for those, can you post links to them please? Base on specs I don't find them impressive. Seem like too compromised, compared to the older models with no build in DACs.

If I must use a two channel system for streaming and digital inputs on a very tight budget, I would consider the WXC-50 (rank quite high on the ASR chart) plus a two channel power amp.

The extra heat in a 7.1/9.1 AVR can be dealt with by adding an external fan.

 

[AVUser001]

For better components you would have to look to the A-S1100 above for Yamaha, and PM8005 and above for Marantz, or Denon's PMA-SX.
I haven't seen any measurements for those, can you post links to them please? Base on specs I don't find them impressive. Seem like too compromised, compared to the older models with no build in DACs.

If I must use a two channel system for streaming and digital inputs on a very tight budget, I would consider the WXC-50 (rank quite high on the ASR chart) plus a two channel power amp.

Havent seen detailed test measurements yet for those devices, besides the manufacturer specs.
Only reason I looked into those NAD integrated amps, are the Airplay2 support , they brought in, using the optional BluOS MDC module.
The Yamaha devices dont have Airplay2 support yet , Otherwise they look great.. aybe I'll reach out to them to see if they have any upgrades coming up with Airplay2 support.

If I have to place an AVR, then a stereo pre-amp with Airplay2 support with Pre-outs (like Blusound Node 2i) + 2 channel power amp like could be an option vs an Integrated amp...

..just thinking out loud. This has taken backseat though given the other thread ;-)

 

[snakeeyes]

Havent seen detailed test measurements yet for those devices, besides the manufacturer specs.
Only reason I looked into those NAD integrated amps, are the Airplay2 support , they brought in, using the optional BluOS MDC module.
The Yamaha devices dont have Airplay2 support yet , Otherwise they look great.. aybe I'll reach out to them to see if they have any upgrades coming up with Airplay2 support.

If I have to place an AVR, then a stereo pre-amp with Airplay2 support with Pre-outs (like Blusound Node 2i) + 2 channel power amp like could be an option vs an Integrated amp...

..just thinking out loud. This has taken backseat though given the other thread ;-)

There was a firmware update for 2018 Yamaha models, such as xx80 models etc. Here is a complete list.

Yamaha Enhances Home Audio Products with AirPlay 2, New Music Streaming and Voice Control Capabilities - Yamaha USA

usa.yamaha.com

 

[PENG]

There was a firmware update for 2018 Yamaha models, such as xx08 models etc. Here is a complete list.

Yamaha Enhances Home Audio Products with AirPlay 2, New Music Streaming and Voice Control Capabilities - Yamaha USA

usa.yamaha.com

I don't see the WXC50 on the list, may be eventually, hopefully. Personally I don't find it useful on audio device such as av receivers..

 

[snakeeyes]

I don't see the WXC50 on the list, may be eventually, hopefully. Personally I don't find it useful on audio device such as av receivers..

Not sure on WXC50. Maybe that one gets refreshed with a new model next year. I notice it doesn’t have HDMI so that’s why I’m unsure. The main reason to refresh the other models next summer is for HDMI 2.1

 

[AVUser001]

I just chatted with Yamaha support, he couldnt share any more info, than whats already published, no dates for other devices etc. I was asking about their Network stereo receivers too.

 

[PENG]

Not sure on WXC50. Maybe that one gets refreshed with a new model next year. I notice it doesn’t have HDMI so that’s why I’m unsure. The main reason to refresh the other models next summer is for HDMI 2.1

I keep mentioning the WXC50 only because I was so impressed with the test results of its cousin WCXA50. Its preamp/dac (no pre-outs though) measured better than quite a few much more expensive avrs and integrated amps.

 

[AVUser001]

I thought I updated this thread with the latest, but apparently not..,

So, for now, I've moved my Marantz SR7010 AVR into office room for 2 channel music, with height1 channels amp assigned to be the stereo mains.. Has plenty of power and sounds beautiful as expected, although with some airplay hiccups. Should give me plenty of time.

I know its an overkill for 2 channel music, but given the AVR issues & two repairs, do not think I'd plug the Marantz back into my HT, where all the existing speakers are working great with the alternate AVR(Denon). Plan to get a pre/pro(or AVR) with HDMI 2.1 this year for the 7.1.4 setup..for future proofing.

 

[DJ7675]

Rather than starting a new thread, this thread, started about the Sonos Amp, is exactly my situation... I am going to have Revel M106 speakers and a small sealed sub (Rythmik L12 or SVS SB200 or pro). The Sonos Amp seems perfect but reports of a low sub output level concerns me. I asked Sonos support what the voltage out was on the sub out and they told me "they don't provide that kind of information". Such a basic spec.... I asked both SVS and Rythmik about the voltage they need to run their amps fully and Rythmik said 1V. SVS said a minimum of 350mv but can take up to 4 without clipping. He said what some have done is put y cable on the sub out of the Sonos amp, and input it in on the stereo input on the sub. He said this proviced a 6db boost of signal which can be helpful if needed. The Sonos amp seems like a great living room device for streaming and TV in a 2.1 setup. Anyone using one that can measure the output with a voltmeter? Or anyone using a Sonos Amp with a non-Sonos sub successfully?
I too want a small device like a sonos amp in our living room, but only if it can fully drive the sub.

 

[John Parks]

Rather than starting a new thread, this thread, started about the Sonos Amp, is exactly my situation... I am going to have Revel M106 speakers and a small sealed sub (Rythmik L12 or SVS SB200 or pro). The Sonos Amp seems perfect but reports of a low sub output level concerns me. I asked Sonos support what the voltage out was on the sub out and they told me "they don't provide that kind of information". Such a basic spec.... I asked both SVS and Rythmik about the voltage they need to run their amps fully and Rythmik said 1V. SVS said a minimum of 350mv but can take up to 4 without clipping. He said what some have done is put y cable on the sub out of the Sonos amp, and input it in on the stereo input on the sub. He said this proviced a 6db boost of signal which can be helpful if needed. The Sonos amp seems like a great living room device for streaming and TV in a 2.1 setup. Anyone using one that can measure the output with a voltmeter? Or anyone using a Sonos Amp with a non-Sonos sub successfully?
I too want a small device like a sonos amp in our living room, but only if it can fully drive the sub.

Did you try the Sonos forum? https://en.community.sonos.com/troubleshooting-228999/sonos-connect-line-out-voltage-6815715
I don’t know if this applies to the Sonos Amp...

 

[lovinthehd]

Rather than starting a new thread, this thread, started about the Sonos Amp, is exactly my situation... I am going to have Revel M106 speakers and a small sealed sub (Rythmik L12 or SVS SB200 or pro). The Sonos Amp seems perfect but reports of a low sub output level concerns me. I asked Sonos support what the voltage out was on the sub out and they told me "they don't provide that kind of information". Such a basic spec.... I asked both SVS and Rythmik about the voltage they need to run their amps fully and Rythmik said 1V. SVS said a minimum of 350mv but can take up to 4 without clipping. He said what some have done is put y cable on the sub out of the Sonos amp, and input it in on the stereo input on the sub. He said this proviced a 6db boost of signal which can be helpful if needed. The Sonos amp seems like a great living room device for streaming and TV in a 2.1 setup. Anyone using one that can measure the output with a voltmeter? Or anyone using a Sonos Amp with a non-Sonos sub successfully?
I too want a small device like a sonos amp in our living room, but only if it can fully drive the sub.

Sonos with their lousy idea about bricking gear and they don't provide specs? I'll never consider them myself....

 

[DJ7675]

Did you try the Sonos forum? https://en.community.sonos.com/troubleshooting-228999/sonos-connect-line-out-voltage-6815715
I don’t know if this applies to the Sonos Amp...

Thanks for your reply. That is just the line out on the old sonos connect I believe. I am not sure if it would be the same as the sub out on the newer Sonos Amp.

 

[Pogre]

Integrated or get an AVR. I haven't read anything about Sonos that makes me want to buy anything.

 

[DJ7675]

Sonos with their lousy idea about bricking gear and they don't provide specs? I'll never consider them myself....

I am not tied to this unit, but it does Airplay 2, has very good power, provide simple living room use switching between tv/streaming... it is quite the turn off to not provide such a simple spec. I just would rather not have a receiver so may need to look at one of the yamaha or denon units. Any others under $1k to consider?

 

[lovinthehd]

I am not tied to this unit, but it does Airplay 2, has very good power, provide simple living room use switching between tv/streaming... it is quite the turn off to not provide such a simple spec. I just would rather not have a receiver so may need to look at one of the yamaha or denon units. Any others under $1k to consider?

An avr can be a pretty simple solution, and actual bass management, altho a larger box. Not familiar with the Heos/MusicCast stuff, tho nor do I need Airplay 2 support (but have read some comments about how few units had that a while back).....so I'm no help in suggesting something particular. Not providing a simple spec is ridiculous.

 

[PENG]

I am not tied to this unit, but it does Airplay 2, has very good power, provide simple living room use switching between tv/streaming... it is quite the turn off to not provide such a simple spec. I just would rather not have a receiver so may need to look at one of the yamaha or denon units. Any others under $1k to consider?

What did you find missing in the Yamaha WXA-50?
It has Airplay but not sure if it is "2". It certainly has high enough sub out voltage.

 

[AVUser001]

I am not tied to this unit, but it does Airplay 2, has very good power, provide simple living room use switching between tv/streaming... it is quite the turn off to not provide such a simple spec. I just would rather not have a receiver so may need to look at one of the yamaha or denon units. Any others under $1k to consider?

Multi-room streaming via Airplay2 ,decent power o/p and co-existence with my existing Sonos setup for in-ceiling speakers was the reason I invested in Sonos Amp for my 2 channel music setup in office initially. I've moved on since then ..,turning my casual office setup into my renovated 2 channel listening reference system.
The in-ceiling speakers in Kitchen and Living room are still driven by two Sonos Amps..,but without any sub.

Sonos support ,with escalations to their product engineering , tried everything to make it work (ie increase the sub out) , but failed. The Y cable did help to some extent, but not enough to drive the SVS sub, which I eventually returned. Couldnt believe they'd release their top of the line integrated amp , without extensive testing with third-party subs.

I'm not even following that issue(ie low sub o/p) anymore... Gave up a while ago and moved on. I might try roon for tying all my systems together in the near future.

there are few products that do support Airplay2.

Have you checked this out,

DRA-800H (2019) Stereo Network Receiver AV Receivers | Denon

Bring amazing audio to your home with the DRA-800H (2019) Stereo Network Receiver. Home theater receivers from Denon integrate your home entertainment flawlessly.

usa.denon.com