TLS Guy Audioholic Jedi Oct 30, 2007 27,296 0 113 79 Eagan MN Jun 6, 2013 #81 AcuDefTechGuy said: That's what you think. No surprise. Like I said, overrated and hearsay. The XLS1000 can output 1100 watts RMS bridged into 4 ohms. It will do just fine. I am using an AT3002 amp (450 WPC/4 ohms/ 0.03% THD) for my dual Funk 18.0 subs, and AT6012 (90 WPC/4 ohms) for dual RBH SX-1010N subs (w/ Orion). The bass is fantastic and sounds like an earthquake/F5 tornado when playing War of the World BD. So, yeah, just fine. Click to expand... It's not as flat as you think. ALL sealed subs roll off at 12 db per octave well above driver Fs. That is just math and physics, not hearsay. The reason sealed subs take so much power is that you have to Eq them at 12 db per octave just above the 3 db point minus room gain. You are just proving that bass is perceived mainly above the last octave, so you don't need to chase the 20 Hz stuff and below.
AcuDefTechGuy said: That's what you think. No surprise. Like I said, overrated and hearsay. The XLS1000 can output 1100 watts RMS bridged into 4 ohms. It will do just fine. I am using an AT3002 amp (450 WPC/4 ohms/ 0.03% THD) for my dual Funk 18.0 subs, and AT6012 (90 WPC/4 ohms) for dual RBH SX-1010N subs (w/ Orion). The bass is fantastic and sounds like an earthquake/F5 tornado when playing War of the World BD. So, yeah, just fine. Click to expand... It's not as flat as you think. ALL sealed subs roll off at 12 db per octave well above driver Fs. That is just math and physics, not hearsay. The reason sealed subs take so much power is that you have to Eq them at 12 db per octave just above the 3 db point minus room gain. You are just proving that bass is perceived mainly above the last octave, so you don't need to chase the 20 Hz stuff and below.
Irvrobinson Audioholic Spartan Dec 7, 2004 6,754 0 113 Jun 6, 2013 #82 TLS Guy said: You are just proving that bass is perceived mainly above the last octave, so you don't need to chase the 20 Hz stuff and below. Click to expand... When you say "last octave", which octave are you referring to? 10-20Hz? Reactions: Alex2507
TLS Guy said: You are just proving that bass is perceived mainly above the last octave, so you don't need to chase the 20 Hz stuff and below. Click to expand... When you say "last octave", which octave are you referring to? 10-20Hz?
haraldo Audioholic Warlord Feb 25, 2008 7,914 0 113 63 Endor Jun 6, 2013 #83 TLS Guy said: It's not as flat as you think. ALL sealed subs roll off at 12 db per octave well above driver Fs. That is just math and physics, not hearsay. The reason sealed subs take so much power is that you have to Eq them at 12 db per octave just above the 3 db point minus room gain. You are just proving that bass is perceived mainly above the last octave, so you don't need to chase the 20 Hz stuff and below. Click to expand... I guess it's not exactly like this.... In anechoic conditions you do have a 12dB / octave rolloff.... In a room, it depends on the room and position of sub, in practice the actual equalization depends on the room gain and the corner loading.... is this not true?
TLS Guy said: It's not as flat as you think. ALL sealed subs roll off at 12 db per octave well above driver Fs. That is just math and physics, not hearsay. The reason sealed subs take so much power is that you have to Eq them at 12 db per octave just above the 3 db point minus room gain. You are just proving that bass is perceived mainly above the last octave, so you don't need to chase the 20 Hz stuff and below. Click to expand... I guess it's not exactly like this.... In anechoic conditions you do have a 12dB / octave rolloff.... In a room, it depends on the room and position of sub, in practice the actual equalization depends on the room gain and the corner loading.... is this not true?
TLS Guy Audioholic Jedi Oct 30, 2007 27,296 0 113 79 Eagan MN Jun 6, 2013 #84 Irvrobinson said: When you say "last octave", which octave are you referring to? 10-20Hz? Click to expand... Actually 20 to 40 Hz Reactions: Alex2507
Irvrobinson said: When you say "last octave", which octave are you referring to? 10-20Hz? Click to expand... Actually 20 to 40 Hz
Irvrobinson Audioholic Spartan Dec 7, 2004 6,754 0 113 Jun 6, 2013 #85 TLS Guy said: Actually 20 to 40 Hz Click to expand... Ah, then I really can't agree. Using the RTA display on the OmniMic II with 1/12th octave resolution shows a surprising amount of output in the 20-40Hz octave, especially on contemporary jazz CDs. Popular music CDs with synthesizers also do it, like for example those from Sarah McLachlan.
TLS Guy said: Actually 20 to 40 Hz Click to expand... Ah, then I really can't agree. Using the RTA display on the OmniMic II with 1/12th octave resolution shows a surprising amount of output in the 20-40Hz octave, especially on contemporary jazz CDs. Popular music CDs with synthesizers also do it, like for example those from Sarah McLachlan.
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 Jun 6, 2013 #86 TLS Guy said: You are just proving that bass is perceived mainly above the last octave, so you don't need to chase the 20 Hz stuff and below. Click to expand... Who says I care about any frequencies below my hearing threshold ? You were talking about an F3 of 60Hz w/ 1,100 watts RMS amp, which is ridiculous. 20Hz-100Hz is all I care about for bass. Last edited: Jun 6, 2013
TLS Guy said: You are just proving that bass is perceived mainly above the last octave, so you don't need to chase the 20 Hz stuff and below. Click to expand... Who says I care about any frequencies below my hearing threshold ? You were talking about an F3 of 60Hz w/ 1,100 watts RMS amp, which is ridiculous. 20Hz-100Hz is all I care about for bass.
TLS Guy Audioholic Jedi Oct 30, 2007 27,296 0 113 79 Eagan MN Jun 6, 2013 #87 Irvrobinson said: Ah, then I really can't agree. Using the RTA display on the OmniMic II with 1/12th octave resolution shows a surprising amount of output in the 20-40Hz octave, especially on contemporary jazz CDs. Popular music CDs with synthesizers also do it, like for example those from Sarah McLachlan. Click to expand... The issue is an audio psycho perceptive issue. The ear rapidly looses sensitivity below 40 Hz and what people actually perceive as bass is above 40 Hz. Most pipe organs only have 16 ft stops and yet they have a lot of bass. 32 ft stops which go to 16 Hz don't actually change the perception of bass as much as skilled voicing of the organ does.
Irvrobinson said: Ah, then I really can't agree. Using the RTA display on the OmniMic II with 1/12th octave resolution shows a surprising amount of output in the 20-40Hz octave, especially on contemporary jazz CDs. Popular music CDs with synthesizers also do it, like for example those from Sarah McLachlan. Click to expand... The issue is an audio psycho perceptive issue. The ear rapidly looses sensitivity below 40 Hz and what people actually perceive as bass is above 40 Hz. Most pipe organs only have 16 ft stops and yet they have a lot of bass. 32 ft stops which go to 16 Hz don't actually change the perception of bass as much as skilled voicing of the organ does.
TLS Guy Audioholic Jedi Oct 30, 2007 27,296 0 113 79 Eagan MN Jun 6, 2013 #88 AcuDefTechGuy said: Who says I care about any frequencies below my hearing threshold ? You were talking about an F3 of 60Hz w/ 1,100 watts RMS amp, which is ridiculous. 20Hz-100Hz is all I care about for bass. Click to expand... That Triax sub is a very small box for those 3 woofers and the F3 point will be 60 Hz or higher without Eq. That is why it takes so much power. Whereas my lines which are efficient acoustic transformers can reach 20 Hz without the amps breaking a sweat or much cone travel of the drivers. Of course they take up much more real estate and that's the rub.
AcuDefTechGuy said: Who says I care about any frequencies below my hearing threshold ? You were talking about an F3 of 60Hz w/ 1,100 watts RMS amp, which is ridiculous. 20Hz-100Hz is all I care about for bass. Click to expand... That Triax sub is a very small box for those 3 woofers and the F3 point will be 60 Hz or higher without Eq. That is why it takes so much power. Whereas my lines which are efficient acoustic transformers can reach 20 Hz without the amps breaking a sweat or much cone travel of the drivers. Of course they take up much more real estate and that's the rub.
S ShaunH Audioholic Intern Jan 10, 2007 26 0 0 Jun 6, 2013 #89 I find this argument really stupid. Your getting a excellent amp from speaker power and you want a passive version. Here how about this.... a outboard amp from speaker power..... Rack Mount Models - SpeakerPower Vs the plate amps they also offer SP1 Mono Models - SpeakerPower Not to mention you might actually get less output from a cheap outboard amp. Reactions: mike c
I find this argument really stupid. Your getting a excellent amp from speaker power and you want a passive version. Here how about this.... a outboard amp from speaker power..... Rack Mount Models - SpeakerPower Vs the plate amps they also offer SP1 Mono Models - SpeakerPower Not to mention you might actually get less output from a cheap outboard amp.
Irvrobinson Audioholic Spartan Dec 7, 2004 6,754 0 113 Jun 6, 2013 #90 TLS Guy said: The issue is an audio psycho perceptive issue. The ear rapidly looses sensitivity below 40 Hz and what people actually perceive as bass is above 40 Hz. Most pipe organs only have 16 ft stops and yet they have a lot of bass. 32 ft stops which go to 16 Hz don't actually change the perception of bass as much as skilled voicing of the organ does. Click to expand... I don't know much about tuning organs, but I do know that rolling off bass response below 40Hz has a significant and easily perceived effect on the music I mentioned earlier. Sub-40Hz bass pressurizes the room and you feel it, and feel isn't logarithmic like hearing is. IMO, once you get accustomed to strong and accurate reproduction in the 20-40Hz octave you are addicted, it is difficult to go back to missing it. Reactions: ahblaza
TLS Guy said: The issue is an audio psycho perceptive issue. The ear rapidly looses sensitivity below 40 Hz and what people actually perceive as bass is above 40 Hz. Most pipe organs only have 16 ft stops and yet they have a lot of bass. 32 ft stops which go to 16 Hz don't actually change the perception of bass as much as skilled voicing of the organ does. Click to expand... I don't know much about tuning organs, but I do know that rolling off bass response below 40Hz has a significant and easily perceived effect on the music I mentioned earlier. Sub-40Hz bass pressurizes the room and you feel it, and feel isn't logarithmic like hearing is. IMO, once you get accustomed to strong and accurate reproduction in the 20-40Hz octave you are addicted, it is difficult to go back to missing it.
Irvrobinson Audioholic Spartan Dec 7, 2004 6,754 0 113 Jun 6, 2013 #91 TLS Guy said: my lines which are efficient acoustic transformers can reach 20 Hz without the amps breaking a sweat or much cone travel of the drivers. Of course they take up much more real estate and that's the rub. Click to expand... And a commercial version would probably cost a fortune too, due to high construction costs. I'm guessing those TL cabinets were way complex to build.
TLS Guy said: my lines which are efficient acoustic transformers can reach 20 Hz without the amps breaking a sweat or much cone travel of the drivers. Of course they take up much more real estate and that's the rub. Click to expand... And a commercial version would probably cost a fortune too, due to high construction costs. I'm guessing those TL cabinets were way complex to build.
haraldo Audioholic Warlord Feb 25, 2008 7,914 0 113 63 Endor Jun 6, 2013 #92 So to find out how much equalization is needed in this case with a sealed sub, in this case. 2 Peerless XlS-12 subwoofers in a 65 liter cabinet, see the configuration here, with also PEQ curve shown, 6dB raised at 15 Hz ANECHOIC RESPONSE The anechoic response calculated by the Embla Audio program: Look at GREEN CURVE! CORNER LOADING The response calculated by the Embla Audio program when SUB is corner loaded: Look at GREEN AND RED CURVE! I'm sure there are many many variables, not covered here and I'm not sure how good this program is and how well it represents what you get in real life but..... We cannot mix anechoic behavior with what you get when you corner load a sub I'm sure Powersound audio will post the relevant metrics on their website soon At least I would be very in seeing similar theoretical and measured figures on the Triax! Last edited: Jun 6, 2013
So to find out how much equalization is needed in this case with a sealed sub, in this case. 2 Peerless XlS-12 subwoofers in a 65 liter cabinet, see the configuration here, with also PEQ curve shown, 6dB raised at 15 Hz ANECHOIC RESPONSE The anechoic response calculated by the Embla Audio program: Look at GREEN CURVE! CORNER LOADING The response calculated by the Embla Audio program when SUB is corner loaded: Look at GREEN AND RED CURVE! I'm sure there are many many variables, not covered here and I'm not sure how good this program is and how well it represents what you get in real life but..... We cannot mix anechoic behavior with what you get when you corner load a sub I'm sure Powersound audio will post the relevant metrics on their website soon At least I would be very in seeing similar theoretical and measured figures on the Triax!
haraldo Audioholic Warlord Feb 25, 2008 7,914 0 113 63 Endor Jun 6, 2013 #93 Irvrobinson said: And a commercial version would probably cost a fortune too, due to high construction costs. I'm guessing those TL cabinets were way complex to build. Click to expand... There are not actually very many TL based commercial subwoofers around, as far as I know it's really only UK based PMC, and they're really good as far as I read, never auditioned them.... Also Australian VAF do have something with some sort of tuned pipe..... There's a lot of woodwork going in here so I reckon a lot of the price is shipping of the big big box..... I read somewhere the amount of work going into TLS's speakers and subwoofers and this would definitely make them an expensive set of commercial speakers if it should ever come to this! TLS's subs are the best for one very good reason, he rely on Norwegian Seas Excel drivers Last edited: Jun 6, 2013
Irvrobinson said: And a commercial version would probably cost a fortune too, due to high construction costs. I'm guessing those TL cabinets were way complex to build. Click to expand... There are not actually very many TL based commercial subwoofers around, as far as I know it's really only UK based PMC, and they're really good as far as I read, never auditioned them.... Also Australian VAF do have something with some sort of tuned pipe..... There's a lot of woodwork going in here so I reckon a lot of the price is shipping of the big big box..... I read somewhere the amount of work going into TLS's speakers and subwoofers and this would definitely make them an expensive set of commercial speakers if it should ever come to this! TLS's subs are the best for one very good reason, he rely on Norwegian Seas Excel drivers
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 Jun 6, 2013 #94 TLS Guy said: That Triax sub is a very small box for those 3 woofers. Click to expand... Oh, I forgot about the 3 woofers. The Funk 18.0 sealed sub only has a single 18" woofer and it does not require more than 400 WPC to blow the windows out of my room. The Rythmik D15SE is also sealed and only requires a 450watts amp (built-in). But I never had a sealed sub w/ 3 woofers.
TLS Guy said: That Triax sub is a very small box for those 3 woofers. Click to expand... Oh, I forgot about the 3 woofers. The Funk 18.0 sealed sub only has a single 18" woofer and it does not require more than 400 WPC to blow the windows out of my room. The Rythmik D15SE is also sealed and only requires a 450watts amp (built-in). But I never had a sealed sub w/ 3 woofers.
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 Jun 6, 2013 #95 haraldo said: There are not actually very many TL based commercial subwoofers around Click to expand... Maybe there's a good reason for that. People always think their designs are THE BEST. But no way of PROVING that unless they're all measured by Audioholics. I'm not taking anyone's own word that their designs are THE BEST. Reactions: ahblaza and haraldo
haraldo said: There are not actually very many TL based commercial subwoofers around Click to expand... Maybe there's a good reason for that. People always think their designs are THE BEST. But no way of PROVING that unless they're all measured by Audioholics. I'm not taking anyone's own word that their designs are THE BEST.
haraldo Audioholic Warlord Feb 25, 2008 7,914 0 113 63 Endor Jun 6, 2013 #96 AcuDefTechGuy said: Maybe there's a good reason for that. People always think their designs are THE BEST. But no way of PROVING that unless they're all measured by Audioholics. I'm not taking anyone's own word that their designs are THE BEST. Click to expand... Somehow I always been very happy with bass from good TL designs, I think it's the best enclosure for a sub too, would really like to audition the PMC subwoofers.... Don't think Power Sound or Funk will make TL's it's probably too big and too expensive to ship anywhere
AcuDefTechGuy said: Maybe there's a good reason for that. People always think their designs are THE BEST. But no way of PROVING that unless they're all measured by Audioholics. I'm not taking anyone's own word that their designs are THE BEST. Click to expand... Somehow I always been very happy with bass from good TL designs, I think it's the best enclosure for a sub too, would really like to audition the PMC subwoofers.... Don't think Power Sound or Funk will make TL's it's probably too big and too expensive to ship anywhere
haraldo Audioholic Warlord Feb 25, 2008 7,914 0 113 63 Endor Jun 6, 2013 #97 TLS Guy said: That Triax sub is a very small box for those 3 woofers and the F3 point will be 60 Hz or higher without Eq. That is why it takes so much power. Whereas my lines which are efficient acoustic transformers can reach 20 Hz without the amps breaking a sweat or much cone travel of the drivers. Of course they take up much more real estate and that's the rub. Click to expand... Well another thing, if cabinet is too small for drivers, you will get a too high Q value at resonance and a too "boomy bass", that is nowhere close to what you get from a good TL design, yes Richard Vandersteen closely advocates a Q = 0.5 on all his subs in order to have less ringing and best possible bass.....John Dunlavy advocated similarly Low-Q tuning in all his big big speakers (SC-V and SC-VI), and they were certainly not known for poor bass quality...... they easily reached sub 20Hz in-room extension without the need for any equalization.... but the size and weight opinions please? Last edited: Jun 6, 2013
TLS Guy said: That Triax sub is a very small box for those 3 woofers and the F3 point will be 60 Hz or higher without Eq. That is why it takes so much power. Whereas my lines which are efficient acoustic transformers can reach 20 Hz without the amps breaking a sweat or much cone travel of the drivers. Of course they take up much more real estate and that's the rub. Click to expand... Well another thing, if cabinet is too small for drivers, you will get a too high Q value at resonance and a too "boomy bass", that is nowhere close to what you get from a good TL design, yes Richard Vandersteen closely advocates a Q = 0.5 on all his subs in order to have less ringing and best possible bass.....John Dunlavy advocated similarly Low-Q tuning in all his big big speakers (SC-V and SC-VI), and they were certainly not known for poor bass quality...... they easily reached sub 20Hz in-room extension without the need for any equalization.... but the size and weight opinions please?
fuzz092888 Audioholic Warlord Feb 13, 2012 9,103 0 113 42.3464° N, 71.0975° W Jun 6, 2013 #98 Don't get me wrong, I love a good brute force subwoofer (i.e. the massive dual opposed I built), but on the other hand the Phil's with their ML-TL produce extremely satisfying bass and a surprising visceral experience. Not the same as the dual opposed, obviously, but amazing nonetheless. Now, I'd love to build or at least hear a TL subwoofer because the idea of being able to drive a sub to extreme SPL's off of a couple hundred watts is extremely appealing. Much more appealing than adding about 4000 more watts to the dual opposed for the same levels of performance. Reactions: Natrix, ahblaza and haraldo
Don't get me wrong, I love a good brute force subwoofer (i.e. the massive dual opposed I built), but on the other hand the Phil's with their ML-TL produce extremely satisfying bass and a surprising visceral experience. Not the same as the dual opposed, obviously, but amazing nonetheless. Now, I'd love to build or at least hear a TL subwoofer because the idea of being able to drive a sub to extreme SPL's off of a couple hundred watts is extremely appealing. Much more appealing than adding about 4000 more watts to the dual opposed for the same levels of performance.
ahblaza Audioholic Field Marshall Mar 13, 2009 1,520 0 83 74 Beaver County Pa Jun 6, 2013 #99 My Man, the sub man
TLS Guy Audioholic Jedi Oct 30, 2007 27,296 0 113 79 Eagan MN Jun 6, 2013 #100 Irvrobinson said: And a commercial version would probably cost a fortune too, due to high construction costs. I'm guessing those TL cabinets were way complex to build. Click to expand... You just can't imagine how hard it was. The techical drawings alone took me months. The build was three and a half months. However I just can't tell you how much pleasure they have given. It was worth it and then some. Reactions: Alex2507, templemaners, haraldo and 1 other person
Irvrobinson said: And a commercial version would probably cost a fortune too, due to high construction costs. I'm guessing those TL cabinets were way complex to build. Click to expand... You just can't imagine how hard it was. The techical drawings alone took me months. The build was three and a half months. However I just can't tell you how much pleasure they have given. It was worth it and then some.
