Needing new AVR, or switch to separates?

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I just turned off the "Signature" in the Tapatalk setting. This is a test.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I just turned off the "Signature" in the Tapatalk setting. This is a test.

Hey, it worked. No more stupid Tapatalk signature!

So on Tapatalk, far right, click that "Person" symbol next to the "Bell" symbol, I guess that's the profile? Then click the "Settings". Then click "Signature" and turn it off.

 

[little wing]

I agree, Marantz or Denon. Myself, like you have not had good luck with Yammie and I've seen others on this board make mention of there less than ideal lifespan of Yammie.........they do make good snowmobiles though !

I replaced my 10 year old Yamaha RX v2500 less than a year ago, not because it stopped working, but because it lacked HDMI inputs. The thing is built like a tank and is still going strong today in the bedroom. In fact I would venture to say Yamaha has some of the best quality control in the industry. My new one performs flawlessly, has fantastic sound, and runs cool as a cucumber. and oh yeah....they make good snowmobiles too.......

 

[Pogre]

Very funny, I only mentioned the Scintilla because of mtry's post about 1 ohm full band speaker. The OP has Polk speakers, I think...

I know why you brought them up and I agree with you. Folks keep arguing that boutique amps are the way to go.

I prolly shoulda said "I didn't realize op had 1 ohm speakers.".

 

[Steve81]

If the Magnepan 30.7 measures similarly to the other Magnepan measured on Stereophile, where the minimum impedance is 3 ohms and sensitivity is 84-85dB/w/m, then I see absolutely no reason by anything that can output 170 watts into 1 ohm cannot power the speaker.

With a sensitivity of 83.5, distance of 10FT, 100W can output 100dB volume. The Denon 3805 can output 243W into 4 ohms. 243W can output 104dB volume.

A couple things to keep in mind:

1. If you're referencing Stereophile's measured sensitivity, it is specified with a 2.83V input. For a 4 ohm nominal speaker, that means it takes 2W to reach the specified SPL at 1m.

2. It looks like you're calculating output for a pair of speakers (which adds 3dB), plus 3dB of additional gain. That's fine if you state it as such, but it's not the same thing as saying each channel can deliver 100dB with 100W either.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

A couple things to keep in mind:

1. If you're referencing Stereophile's measured sensitivity, it is specified with a 2.83V input. For a 4 ohm nominal speaker, that means it takes 2W to reach the specified SPL at 1m.

2. It looks like you're calculating output for a pair of speakers (which adds 3dB), plus 3dB of additional gain. That's fine if you state it as such, but it's not the same thing as saying each channel can deliver 100dB with 100W either.

I knew I forgot something.

OK, so for the Denon 3805 output of 243W/4 ohms, I should use 1/2 that for the SPL calculator, which is 121W. This would produce a total of 101dB from both speakers combined (not 1 speaker) from 10FT away, assuming the speakers are 2-4 FT from the walls.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

 

[mtrycrafts]

The 1 ohm dynamic power test is just a torture test. The Apogee Scintilla was rated 1 ohm, I can't think of another one.

In the past Toole called those speakers poorly designed.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Very funny, I only mentioned the Scintilla because of mtry's post about 1 ohm full band speaker. The OP has Polk speakers, I think...

What I really meant by my post is that it had a 1 Ohm impedance across its full bandwidth, not just one place dipping into 1 Ohm, perhaps in the tweeter region where very little power is needed to begin with.

 

[PENG]

In the past Toole called those speakers poorly designed.

I am sure they will sound fine, but no thanks, there are no shortages of accurate speakers that don't need half or much less power that those things need.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I am sure they will sound fine, but no thanks, there are no shortages of accurate speakers that don't need half or much less power that those things need.

I never considered Magnepan as "accurate" speakers.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-magneplanar-mg36r-loudspeaker-measurements

https://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-magneplanar-mg16qr-loudspeaker-measurements

 

[PENG]

What I really meant by my post is that it had a 1 Ohm impedance across its full bandwidth, not just one place dipping into 1 Ohm, perhaps in the tweeter region where very little power is needed to begin with.

I knew what your meant, that's exactly why I mentioned the Scintilla, it is not going to be a one ohm straight line, but it was rated one ohm, not just "dip" to 1 ohm.

I just remember, vaguely, that Gene has some very power hungry and large speakers but I can't remember what they are, do you? Not sure if the were 2 ohm rated either.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I knew what your meant, that's exactly why I mentioned the Scintilla, it is not going to be a one ohm straight line, but it was rated one ohm, not just "dip" to 1 ohm.

I just remember, vaguely, that Gene has some very power hungry and large speakers but I can't remember what they are, do you? Not sure if the were 2 ohm rated either.

No idea unless those monster triangular shaped low driver speakers are it.
As you said, no reason why good speakers cannot be designed to have 4-8 Ohms per Toole.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I just remember, vaguely, that Gene has some very power hungry and large speakers but I can't remember what they are, do you? Not sure if the were 2 ohm rated either.

Gene has the RBH Status Acoustics 8T, which are 4 ohms, 93dB/2.83v/m.

http://www.statusacoustics.com/8t.php

 

[lovinthehd]

FYI, Carlthess40 may not be able to eliminate the Tapatalk Ad from his messages. I believe it's an automatic commercial. Moreover, he may not be aware of the fact that it is always being sent with each of his messages. I know he isn't the only one using that mobile platform, and I've seen the ad many times with posts from other audioholics as well. Probably Tapatalk wants free publicity.

In the app you merely go to your profile (the icon with a head inside a hexagon, on the far right, on my phone at least) > settings > signature > edit signature > none

Just a pet peeve of mine, and if you are using tapatalk they don't include the ad (probably takes up too much room) so you don't see it if you are using just tapatalk....

There are a few that persist in using it even after being asked to remove it (yepimonfire being one), altho Carl seems to be annoyed by it....

 

[Steve81]

OK, so for the Denon 3805 output of 243W/4 ohms, I should use 1/2 that for the SPL calculator, which is 121W. This would produce a total of 101dB from both speakers combined (not 1 speaker) from 10FT away, assuming the speakers are 2-4 FT from the walls.

Not exactly an impressive figure considering that's basically the bleeding edge of what the 3805 is going to deliver into those speakers. Your RBH/ATI rig would be loafing at those levels by comparison.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Not exactly an impressive figure considering that's basically the bleeding edge of what the 3805 is going to deliver into those speakers. Your RBH/ATI rig would be loafing at those levels by comparison.

Well, okay, if I were living in a alternate universe and actually owned speakers that are 83.5dB/2.83v/m, instead of 93.0dB/2.83v/m, I would most likely use an external amp too.

But just looking at this 83.5dB/4 ohms speaker, even if the OP had a 300 WPC amp, which is probably 450W/ 4ohms, with the same parameters, this would only output a peak SPL of 103dB, which isn't that much more than what the Denon 3805 could do at 101dB.

However, if you try to power those Magnepan with the Denon AVR and you don't put a 120mm fan atop the chassis, the Denon might go into protection mode due to overheating.

OTOH, an external amp is probably going to have better heat dissipation and won't go into protection mode even if you don't put a fan on top.

So after saying all that, yeah, I would recommend an external amp for 4-ohm speakers that are 83dB/2.83v/m and dip into 3 ohms even if the external amp's SPL output isn't that much more than a Denon AVR.

 

[Steve81]

Well, okay, if I were living in a alternate universe and actually owned speakers that are 83.5dB/2.83v/m, instead of 93.0dB/2.83v/m, I would most likely use an external amp too.

But just looking at this 83.5dB/4 ohms speaker, even if the OP had a 300 WPC amp, which is probably 450W/ 4ohms, with the same parameters, this would only output a peak SPL of 103dB, which isn't that much more than what the Denon 3805 could do at 101dB.

I wouldn't touch such inefficient speakers unless they could take the full power of these bad boys. 1.75kW into 4 ohms ought to do the trick. Just makes me glad my speakers are a little more efficient than that, and I have a relatively small space to worry about.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I wouldn't touch such inefficient speakers unless they could take the full power of these bad boys. 1.75kW into 4 ohms ought to do the trick. Just makes me glad my speakers are a little more efficient than that, and I have a relatively small space to worry about.

I was looking at the Magnepan website. I guess the 20.7 is their biggest model for now until the 30.7 comes out. But even with the 20.7 model, Magnepan doesn't want to list the power handling. So a 1.74kW into 4 ohms amp would be quite risky.

Now the model 3.6 (83.5dB/2.83v/m) is only rated for up to 250W. Definitely cannot use a 1.75kW amp here.

 

[2channel lover]

Thank you all so much for the input -- my biggest concern was, as Mikado pointed out, a 1k budget goes far with receivers but not even close to as far with separates.

I definitely don't mind buying used, but as I said earlier, longevity is just as important to me as quality -- if I have to spend more to get a much longer life span, I will -- but I'd prefer to not completely wreck my wallet.
That being the case, what should I look for in used, and new for building a stack (makes/models, what to avoid, etc)

And not that I'm 100% going one way or the other, but do any of you know a decent AVR if I can't shell out for separates?

Again, really, thank you guys for taking the time to answer these questions.
/edit (i just saw the post above me submitted right as I wrote this, sorry! give me just a bit and i'll edit a response)

It will be hard to match the value of an AVR...I would have to check to see if this combo offers the connection option you require, but the Outlaw 975 pre/pro and 5000 amp will come in right around your $1k budget and you have the makings of a great 5ch audio system.

 

[agarwalro]

Not if you compare their top prepro to top AVR ($3,999 vs $2,199), the prepro costs much more, even more than Denon's top AVR.

Likewise, the top Denon AVP-A1HDCI, $7,500 costs more than their top AVR-5805, $6,000, closer to the AVR-5805 Mk2, $7,000. That should make your point even stronger.

I was trying convey a generalized comparison such that I could claim the only difference between the pre-pro and AVR is the addition of its internal amps. The problem with using flagship models is the inability to make one to one comparisons on features and costs. Examples of disparities are, balanced input/outputs, inbuilt networking routers, RS-232 control, boutique DACs, etc.

That said, the economy of scale argument (in favor of AVRs) is definitely bolstered by the flagship models.