Man vs. God

[adwilk]

Reading this thread or similar language gets me thinking.

Take this with a grain of salt.

I suppose you could say I'm religious... But I really don't like the connotations that that word contains.

Religion is simply a motivation to aspire to something, anything.. usually to please a higher power than our own.

My religious beliefs are very specific. I'm amazed that God, in his infinite wisdom, gave man the intellectual wherewithal to actually question his existence. Ultimately, free will. The ghastly reality of God's gift of free will to mankind is that we can do nothing to change other peoples thinking even when they affect us very profoundly. This surrender of choice leaves a real opportunity create our own ideals, beliefs, and understandings provided that our dependence on Him and interdependence on man remains in tact.

I hate the rules. I was "programmed" to believe so many things in Sunday School that I realize now were never a product of the wonderful gift of free will thinking.

Science and Religion can coexist. But, I cling to some truth that God created science and gave us the capacity to understand it so that we ultimately might love Him more.

I say that because I do get sick of the the stereotypical "church" guy that shuns all science. I believe that the wonders of science were created to further magnify the Creator and those scientific principals should be embraced to further understand His love for mankind greater.

So, theres a religious POV. I agree that it seems that people rarely "switch" teams, but at least I'm confident that I created my own beliefs because I CAN and not because somebody told me to.

 

[MidnightSensi]

Oh, but the Universe is fine and dandy doing this itself, destroying, creating, etc. without our help or in spite of it. Just a matter of time, nothing more. In fact, Andromeda Galaxy is on course to devour this one, in time. Most likely the planet will be history, sooner or later.

So, then by your definition, faith must equate to the existence of a God?
But, such is beyond nature otherwise it would not be a God, hence it is outside of reality, the universe, beyond understanding and immaterial.

No, more towards the opposite. Not for bad though, I have a very hard time verbalizing my feelings and wonder when it comes to this stuff.

belief is as a matter of fact quite contrary to faith because "belief" is really wishing, it's from the Anglo-Saxon root "lief," to wish, and belief stated say in the creed, is a fervent hope that the universe will turn out to be thus and so. And in this sense therefore belief precludes the possibility of faith, because faith is openness to truth, to reality whatever it may turn out to be. "I want to know the truth," that is the attitude of faith...

I'll give a more throught out responses tomorrow, I'm so tired right now I can't even type...

Great discussion guys.

 

[MidnightSensi]

Tough cookies, you can't just make up your own definitions. If there isn't a word that fits what you're attempting to describe then don't use a word and just explain it. What possible benefit can there be to using some personal definition of a word that virtually no one else shares with you?

We'll, Buddists would. Most Eastern religions would.

 

[mtrycrafts]

In an abstract way, some clearly can, as in the concept that before the Big Bang, there was nothing and although the universe has been expanding for about 14 billion years, outside of its farthest reaches is nothingness, even though it extends infinitely.

Yes, but if there was nothing how did the big bang come about?
There is always an infinite way to regression. Something out of nothingness?

Why need a supernatural? People need some kind of governance and we have known it for a long time. To keep people in line, when they weren't all so eager to disagree that something bigger than us was out there and waiting to mete out some kind of consequences for wrongdoing, a Supreme Being of some kind was needed.

Yes, of course people need it so it was imagined and it grew
Certainly the Universe has no need that my little brain can comprehend

Personally, I think more people need to believe that doing wrong is wrong, whether they believe in some kind of God, or not.

Yes, and some can do that just fine without such inventions.

 

[NicolasKL]

We'll, Buddists would. Most Eastern religions would.

Eastern religions would what? Make up their own contrary definitions to common words in order to obfuscate discussion?

Is English not your primary language? You're writing on a western board in a western language. Eastern religions wouldn't use the word "faith" at all, because their foundations are not in the English language. It seems to me that, at best, you're mistranslating a word, which is causing you to completely change its meaning, which is obviously not a benefit to rational, efficient discourse.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

Great discussion guys.

Yes, it is. We need a few philosophers here to chime in, real philosophers. Me, I am lucky to put thoughts together that makes some sense, not much, just some

Oh, but how can the midnight sensi be tired?

 

[NicolasKL]

X and Y are not the same thing, X makes Y not possible. Y is a state of openness or trust. Y is letting go and the attitude of Y is the very opposite of clinging to X, of holding on. In other words, a person who is fanatic in matters of religion, and clings to certain ideas about the nature of God and the universe, becomes a person who has no Y at all. Instead they are holding tight. The attitude of Y is to let go, and become open to truth, whatever it might turn out to be.

Okay, so Y is good, and X is bad. Y seems to be a trait that is more in tune with science, and X seems to be a trait that is more in line with religion. Was that your point?

 

[mtrycrafts]

I know what the dictionary says. I don't agree. ...

Oh, great Make them change it to fit yours Or, start a new dictionary

 

[mtrycrafts]

... What possible benefit can there be to using some personal definition of a word that virtually no one else shares with you?

You mean a 'singular reality.' The audio world is full of it

 

[NicolasKL]

Agreed, and a wonderfully immediate example of focusing on the text and missing the point.

That is MY point. I couldn't accurately ascertain HIS POINT due to his nonstandard use of a common word.

 

[NicolasKL]

You mean a 'singular reality.' The audio world is full of it

To its benefit?

 

[mtrycrafts]

...Religion is simply a motivation to aspire to something, anything.. usually to please a higher power than our own.

.....

But, you can do this without religion, no? Or, they are symbiotic?

 

[adwilk]

But, you can do this without religion, no? Or, they are symbiotic?

Maybe, but what higher power does science represent?

 

[highfigh]

1) Yes, but if there was nothing how did the big bang come about? There is always an infinite way to regression. Something out of nothingness?

2)Yes, of course people need it so it was imagined and it grew
Certainly the Universe has no need that my little brain can comprehend

3)Yes, and some can do that just fine without such inventions.

1) Questions like these are how science came about. Science is all about curiosity- what, how and why something happens is at the very core of it. Physicists say that before the Big Bang, all of the matter in the universe existed, but was in an infinitely small space. They say that because of the mass and nearly infinite density, this would be so.

This is confusing to me- if it was infinitely dense, wouldn't it also be hot enough to cause one element to change to another, by fission and fusion? If so much mass could be in a space that's infinitely small, how can we now have billions of galaxies, tens of billions of stars, hundreds of billions of planets, etc?

2) People want to feel that we're special and unique. We may very well be unique, and we're always looking for proof that some other beings exist.

3) Some can, some can't and it doesn't matter which side of the coin they're on. One of the main problems I have with organized religion is that every one of them has had people who did, or still do, horrific things to people in the name of their God. I won't accept that as a reasonable part of any religion. Ever.

 

[Davemcc]

Maybe, but what higher power does science represent?

Truth.

One of the main problems I have with organized religion is that every one of them has had people who did, or still do, horrific things to people in the name of their God.

The first requirement of belief is to discard reason. Once you get people to discard reason, you can convince them that any action is justifiable against the enemies of their belief, the more fervent the belief, the more despicable the actions.

 

[Rickster71]

have you considered a dog door? Niki loves the freedom, and it makes my life a lot easier, too.

Same holds true for the scorpions

 

[Rickster71]

While their are crooks in many places I think it's important to realize most people want to do the right things in life. In fact I'd say most people view themselves as doing the best they can with what they've been given. Almost every preacher I've met really does put his people's needs first. It's easy to let the adoration of others get to you. For example if everyone on AH started to praise your comments on everything you'd probably post more thinking you had good things to say. Eventually you might go to far, but by then it's too late to go back without some serious pain.

There was a guy in our community. When I met the guy he was a really nice great leader, but it got to his head slowly and he ended up embezzling millions. Now he sits in jail as a tragic picture of what fame can do even on a local scale.

I kid you not that he was as honest as anyone at the beginning, but stuff happens.

I was addressing the 'Systemic Problems of Religion,' not just problems of a few bad apples.
The whole entity of religion caused the Crusades, the Inquisition, the witch hunts. Too much violence and death to list; more than in our modern world wars.

Not to mention the opposition that arose to the Sun-centered theory of the universe which Galileo agreed with, and could demonstrate with his telescope.
The Pope found him to be a heretic, Galileo was placed under arrest and his theories debunked.

 

[Adam]

Same holds true for the scorpions

Their too big for the dog door. I think that they're using a bump key or something.

 

[Adam]

The first requirement of belief is to discard reason.

Where's Nick with his definitions when you need him?

I don't agree with that statement, Dave. I don't think that it's a requirement to discard reason in order to believe anything, including believing in something that you personally have never experienced. I've never been to Neptune, witnessed a top quark, or seen a black hole up close - but I believe that they exist. Heck, I've never been to Idaho, but I believe that it actually exists and that potatos aren't formed in factories. I don't think that requires me to discard reason. My beliefs are formed upon my intellectual examinations of what I consider to be facts or supporting evidence (my trust in the source of the information, for example).

The sum total of documented experiences by the human species is likely to be infinitesimally small compared to those that are possible within the known universe, and the total of experiences by one single human is much smaller than even that. Almost all of us take things on faith, even those things that we view as science - we believe what others tell us even though we personally have no evidence or proof of it.

I'm not saying that you do, Dave, or that any particular person does - but a lot of us do. Maybe you only believe things for which you have first hand experience with repeatable results. There's nothing wrong with that. Perhaps you view my posts as text that may or may not have been input by another human. After all, you have evidence that the post exists, but you have no evidence of what caused it to exist.

 

[Rickster71]

I wonder if Dave's post was re-worded to: The first requirement of faith is to discard reason.
That may work better? (Dave, not trying to put words in your mouth. Just helping)