Man vs. God

[Adam]

It'll probably never happen, but I'd love to enjoy a drink or three with some of you and talk about this stuff. I find these topics fascinating and enjoy discussing them with people who want to discuss them and not just argue. Hearing other people's thoughts on this stuff gets the little wheel in my head spinning.

 

[lsiberian]

True.
The same reason no definitive answer to the so called 'wars on drugs and poverty' will ever be found.
Too many people on both sides of all these issues making money and gaining power.

While their are crooks in many places I think it's important to realize most people want to do the right things in life. In fact I'd say most people view themselves as doing the best they can with what they've been given. Almost every preacher I've met really does put his people's needs first. It's easy to let the adoration of others get to you. For example if everyone on AH started to praise your comments on everything you'd probably post more thinking you had good things to say. Eventually you might go to far, but by then it's too late to go back without some serious pain.

There was a guy in our community. When I met the guy he was a really nice great leader, but it got to his head slowly and he ended up embezzling millions. Now he sits in jail as a tragic picture of what fame can do even on a local scale.

I kid you not that he was as honest as anyone at the beginning, but stuff happens.

 

[lsiberian]

It'll probably never happen, but I'd love to enjoy a drink or three with some of you and talk about this stuff. I find these topics fascinating and enjoy discussing them with people who want to discuss them and not just argue. Hearing other people's thoughts on this stuff gets the little wheel in my head spinning.

I agree. I think argument is helpful to a point, but learning how other's think helps us to know them better.

I think respecting others beliefs is possible even if we don't agree and even if they are being completely crazy(with power cords).

 

[pzaur]

Human intellect has not evolved enough to comprehend reality. The question that always comes to me is "What was before?" Without an answer to this we will always have religion to explain it. Faith is an amazing thing that we possess. Is there a God? Dunno. My idea of God is probably very different from the person next to me and so forth.

-pat

 

[MatthewB.]

Being an agnostic, I can go either way, so I never dispprove the existance of a higher being but would like more proof. Over the years, I have pondered many things about religion. The bible was written at a time when stories were told person to person (more likley uneducated farmer to uneducated farmer) and of course we have all played the telephone game were you tell one person one thing and by the time it gets to the 10th person the story has changed dramatically. Now lets think about that. The first reference to Jesus Christ was not written till approximately 80 years after his crucifixtion. There is alot of leeway in the telling of those stories in 80 years by a mostly uneducated populace.

Now I do believe in Jesus, yes, I do agree he was a leader of man and he helped those he could in the ways he could. Did he cure lepers No. Lepers may have felt better being in the presence of a kind man with good words, but no he did not cure leprosy. Did he walk on water. No. But if you keep telling a story of how great any person is, I bet after 80 years he not only walked on water, but could do a perfect 10 swan dive in three inches of water. I don't believe he was the son of God (unless you say we are all the sons and daughters of God) I believe he was a good mortal man crucified (next to an mortal man theif) for his teachings which at the time were considered "witchcraft" if they believed in "witches" at that time.

Now we have heard stories of the burning bush and the voice of God. Hmmm what are the chances of mental imbalance and the need for pyschiatry back then, because that stuff still happens today folks.

Adam and Eve the first humans and they had Cain and Abel, Cain slew Abel, who did Cain get jiggy with to help further the population....say Mom can I pour you a drink.

There are so many stories in the bible that can be disproved yet religion teaches us that we must have faith. Faith in what? something that can't be proved, a God who allows so much famine, death, abuse on children and elderly. Or would it make more sense that man is accountable for his own actions, we as a species are naturally flawed to many degrees. We happened to be on a planet that nature (and the universe) placed us exactly in the right spot to support life and since the Universe is non ending, I wonder how many other planets are exactly 93 million miles from their star and what type of life forms are on that planet and what type of "god" they believe in or if they believe at all. Because it is only humans who put such a degree on Faith and religions, because in my dogs eyes, I am their god.

Now on the flip side I sure hope there is a God, I hope that there is an answer to all these questions. I look at a sunset and think only a God could create something so beautiful, but then the logical part of my brain realizes that it's just our revolving Earth circling the sun and the beautiful images are just our atmosphere reacting to the changing light.

Genesis claims "Let there be light" and poof there was light" um no the "light" is just one of billions other "lights" in the sky that also might have the ability to shine light on other planets in their galaxy.

Have you ever noticed it is the religious who are the most judgemental of others, the first to banish you to hell for your disbeliefs. The most horrible people I have ever met have been ultra religious conservatives who want you to listen to their version of faith, but when you try and tell them your belief they will walk away in a heartbeat (and be rude about it) If God wanted us to be kind to each other and treat each other as equals then I know alot of "pure Christians" who are gonna be warming up downstairs with me for my agnostisisms.

As an agnostic I do pray, I do hope for a better world and I hope we can all believe in peace and harmony, but do find it ironic how most wars are started over religion. Yes Al-Quida, I'm sure God will reward you with your 70 virgins in ever lasting light for the senseless killing of your fellow man (who by the way were also followers of God)

Just my opinion guys, I don't judge any of you on yours, so please don;t judge me on mine.

Edit - What boggles my mind the most is how women can get into religion, man if they ever read the bible they would see that women were thought of us property and slaves and could be bought, sold, traded, beat to death for infidality and most important "women shall be subserviant to man" and yet I still can't get my GF to fetch me a beer.

 

[NicolasKL]

I'd like to see those papers.

Tiktaalik rosae might be one of the ones he's talking about, written about first in 2006.

http://csicop.com/intelligentdesignwatch/fishibian.html

Raptorex Kriegsteini is another.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/tyrannosaurus-rex-small-identical-ancestor-raptorex/Story?id=8600657&page=2

No transitional fossils was a valid criticism in Darwin's day. It isn't any longer. Unfortunately it seems like most creationists haven't gotten the update.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

 

[Adam]

...because in my dogs eyes, I am their god.

After resting and relaxing, they are served their meals by you and then cleaned up afterwards by you.

I think they might see it the other way around.

 

[MatthewB.]

Adam that is funny but true, they do "bark" orders at me (especially at 3 am every night to say, "Hey slave, gotta pee break, get your lazy butt up and tend to my needs and open this door" )

 

[Adam]

Adam that is funny but true, they do "bark" orders at me (especially at 3 am every night to say, "Hey slave, gotta pee break, get your lazy butt up and tend to my needs and open this door" )

You've probably told me before, but have you considered a dog door? Niki loves the freedom, and it makes my life a lot easier, too.

 

[MatthewB.]

his thread reminded me of a great joke.

Two bothers who while on Earth were as opposite as one could be. One was Ultra religious, a nice family man who gave to charity, tended to his fellow man and was just a great guy. His brother was a beer drinking, womanizing slob of a man, who would rather pee on his fellow man than help him out. These two brothers are driving to a family event when they are killed in an accident.

So the one good brother goes to heaven and looks for his brother not to see him, he figures he went to hades for his actions and for years is walking peacfully with his harp in heaven, when lo and behold he sees his brother also in heaven, but his brother has a bottle of booze in one hand and beautiful women on the other.

Well this naturally shocks the good brother who immediatly wants council with St. Peter on why he was a good man on earth and all he has is this stupid harp while his brother was horrible and has booze and bimbos. It's at this point that St. Peter leans in and whispers, "All is not what it appears my disciple, for you see that bottle he carries has a hole in the bottom and the female he's with does not. "

 

[MatthewB.]

You've probably told me before, but have you considered a dog door? Niki loves the freedom, and it makes my life a lot easier, too.

Would love to but I have two koi ponds and one of my dogs would constantly drink water then run inside to get sick. Water is like crack to this goofball dog of mine. But yeah I considered it, but I'd rather get up (or should I say my GF get up - hey gotta be honest) than clean up dog barf.

 

[Adam]

...but I'd rather get up (or should I say my GF get up - hey gotta be honest)...

Uggg. I just imagined a similar comment being said by either Alex or Rick...referring to the other one.

 

[MatthewB.]

Trust me when the dogs wake her up at 3am, she barks almost as much as the dogs.

 

[Adam]

Trust me...she barks almost as much as the dogs.

Uggg, again. I gotta get Alex and Rick out of my head. [Yeah, that won't be taken the wrong way.]

Sorry for the derailment...

 

[GO-NAD!]

I believe that there is a God, but I don't think he's up in heaven stoking his long grey beard, sitting on his throne. I also don't believe that Jesus was devine. He was mortal like the rest of us. To believe that he was the son of God, by default, renders all other religions false. I can't believe that billions of Muslims, Hindus, Jews and Buddhists are condemned to "burn in hell", simply due to the place where they were born. Because lets face it, the primary determinant of whatever religion one might follow is place of birth. I am a Christian in that I believe in an follow (well, try to anyway...) his teachings. Otherwise, I believe that other religions that follow a similiar philosophy of being good to our fellow human beings, as well as our planet and all the life on it, are perfectly valid. Is there a heaven and hell? Who knows? Belief in God is a simple act of faith. I can't see his existance ever being proven or disproven. If we had proof of his existence, no "faith" would be required.

Dawkins' atheism is as much a religious belief as any conventionally religious person's faith. It involves an iron-clad belief in something that cannot be proven, i.e. the non-existence of God. As far as I'm concerned, Communism, as practiced by the governments of the Soviet Union and Red China are/were religious movements as well. They thought/think that their system is infallible and no other philosophy is permitted.

Anyway, that's just my rambling input. Have a great day everybody!

 

[MidnightSensi]

Human intellect has not evolved enough to comprehend reality. The question that always comes to me is "What was before?" Without an answer to this we will always have religion to explain it. Faith is an amazing thing that we possess. Is there a God? Dunno. My idea of God is probably very different from the person next to me and so forth.

-pat

Agreed. I think we have made a great mistake in our thinking of the world and in turn this is the cause of what is beginning to look like the failure of our technology. Of the fact that everything we are doing to improve the world, was an initial success in the short run, but in the long run we seem to be destroying ourselves and the planet by our very efforts to improve it. And that may be because we are too simple minded to understand what we are doing. We use logic and languages/math which is too crude for the job. While science is quick to point out the blindness of religion, I don't know how we can really tell how much further along we are scientifically. Regardless of my love of science, I find much of it to have a sort of cockiness to it.

Faith and belief are very different, though. Belief is really a hope that the universe will turn out to be the way we understand. Faith is an openness to truth, whatever it may be.

When I was young I quickley abandoned religion for science, feeling they were mutually exclusive. Well into my 20s with two degrees in science, I find myself still loving it but not believing in it or even trusting it beyond my immediate world. I'm left with so much wonder... I seem to gyrate between overwhelmed and purposeless. I find myself identifying with the people I chuckled at when I was a, much more confident, kid about loosing their religion.

 

[NicolasKL]

Faith is an openness to truth, whatever it may be.

I don't understand what you mean by that. People that have faith in the existence of God certainly aren't open to truth, if the truth is that their God doesn't exist.

 

[zhimbo]

Theology and science are far more complex than a simple article, but discussion of these topics is important sometimes. My view is Dawkins gives evolution too much credit for the existence of life. 1. We've yet to have a confirmed transitional life form fossil. 2. Entropy states things tend toward chaos not order. 3. The mathematical likely hood of each leap in the process is to low in my view for it to be merely chance.

First of all, there is no necessary conflict between religion and evolution. There are religious people who believe in evolution and non-religious people who don't.

As for your three points, each is profoundly mistaken.
1. There are bajillions of transitionals. A sampling of relevant sites:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#pred4
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/03/4/l_034_05.html

2. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics States that the total Entropy of a system cannot decrease. "Order" and "chaos" are sometimes used as shortcuts in explaining what entropy is, but they are not defined thermodynamic concepts, and are misleading terms in many ways. These are websites run by a retired physics professor, who has devoted a lot of time writing about how to understand the 2nd law:

http://entropysite.oxy.edu/cracked_crutch.html
http://entropysite.oxy.edu/shuffled_cards.html

3. Evolution doesn't proceed by "leaps", and calculations of chances used to say that evolution is "too unlikely" inevitably make the following mistake (spot the error!): If you shuffle a deck of cards and lay them out, what are the chances of you getting the particular sequence? 1 out of 52!, or about 1 out 8x10^67. This is an unimaginably tiny chance, making it essentially impossible for this sequence of cards to occur. Ergo, we CAN'T have just got that particular sequence of cards, it's just too darn unlikely!

 

[MidnightSensi]

I don't understand what you mean by that. People that have faith in the existence of God certainly aren't open to truth, if the truth is that their God doesn't exist.

That's because they don't have faith.

Faith is often used with and in religion, but is not a religious word at all.

Belief and faith are not the same thing, belief makes faith not possible. Faith is a state of openness or trust. Faith is letting go and the attitude of faith is the very opposite of clinging to belief, of holding on. In other words, a person who is fanatic in matters of religion, and clings to certain ideas about the nature of God and the universe, becomes a person who has no faith at all. Instead they are holding tight. The attitude of faith is to let go, and become open to truth, whatever it might turn out to be.

On the opposite side, belief's Anglo-Saxon root 'lief' is 'wish,' it literally means 'to wish.'

 

[Adam]

I view the correct role of religion to be a way to guide people to something that is intangible. It doesn't always work out that way, though.

I believe that one of the fundamental errors in people's views of religion is that the stories are intended to be literal. They mistake poetry for prose, and symbolism for fact. This is an error on the part of those that believe and those that do not believe. So much hatred and misunderstanding arises from this, which is sad and ironic given the true purpose of religion.

I think that another error is in being mentally lazy and blindly following someone who is "in the know" about a religion. That opens up the door for people to twist and pervert religion for their own gain (as they do with other things). So many religious rules are counterproductive to the end goal of a religion, but they get followed because some religious leader(s) said they should be. One of the stories that I recall (perhaps incorrectly) from my younger years is one of Jesus talking about how the Jewish rules of not picking up more than so many sticks on the sabbath (or something like that) were not valuable and shouldn't be obeyed. Regardless, Christians institute their own meaningless (IMO) rules and adhere to them strictly. I grew up Catholic, and we were all about rules.

I'm rambling...I should go get some lunch.