Comparison between the Hsu VTF-3 HO and the SVS PB12-Ultra

[craigsub]

Thanks to JeffD2 - Here are the overlays :

Machines coming out of the ground :

Lightning strikes :

 

[steve nn]

Someday I really will understand subwoofers.

After a few more subs, you should be well on your way Craig. Playing with them is much more fun anyway.

 

[Eddie Horton]

Craig, thanks for the explanation on the level matching. Makes sense now. I'm from Alabama, you know, so it takes a minute for me to catch on.

 

[ssabripo]

NOICE!!

now throw the EP in there craig...while the iron is hot

 

[JonnyOzero3]

..snippiddy snip snipperoo....

Lightning strikes :

Okay, I really wish there was a way to accurately coorelate these running scene max spl graphs to something like this waterfall chart:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6588901&&#post6588901

Because to my eye, it looks like that hump under 50hz probably *should* be there. I'm not bagging on the Ultra, just wondering that since one is different than the other, which one is being more accurate to the intended sound/signal?

Edit: Thanks for all this work you're doing craig, and posting your impressions. I am very much enjoying this

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

I may have to toss this WOTW scene at the EP-500, and see what it can do ...

That would be most excellent.

 

[gene]

Wow 13+ pages in a few days. I must admit I only skimmed this thread but see a few red flags.


1) The null around 50Hz is likely attributed to mic position relative to the subwoofer or another room anomaly. I'd advise you to swap the subs and retake the measurements, and/or do a quick groundplane nearfield sweep of both subs at 1 meter to see if it goes away.
2) Unless I am mistaken, these are in room measurements at the listening position. If so, I'd advise supplementing these measurements with some outdoor groundplane ones at 2 meter, or at the very minimal, do them indoors by placing the subs in the middle of the room with the mic 1/2 meter from the subwoofer.

While the latter recommendation will skew actual SPL measurements, at least it will give you more consistant frequency response measurements to compare apples to apples between the 2 subs. Also try this at various levels to check for subwoofer compression.

excerpt from an up and coming Velodyne SMS-1 Review Clint and Myself are working on

A Note About InRoom Measurements:
When measuring a loudspeaker in a room, it’s important to interpret the results accurately. More often the case than not, a pesky dip in a certain area is either a result of a reflection caused by the wavelength distance relationship between the microphone and floor or the relationship between the distance of the speakers woofers and nearby boundaries, such as the wall behind it.

Some guidelines in interpreting what is real and what isn’t include:
1) Does the measurement anomaly go away when you move the microphone?
2) Does the measurement anomaly coincide with impedance curve of the system?
3) Does the measurement anomaly coincide with ½ wavelength of mic position relative to
the ground?
4) Does the measurement anomaly persist even after you try boosting that frequency
range?

If you answered YES to #1and #3 and #4 and NO to #2, you are likely dealing with a measurement anomaly. If you answered YES to #1 and 4,and NO to #2 & 3 it is likely you are either dealing with a room node.

1/2 wavelength of 50Hz is about 136 inches. Verify if any architectural features in or near your listening room behave as a Helmholtz resonator capable of producing dips at those two frequencies. These include staircases, duct work, closets, open hallway doors, etc.

More on this topic in our formal review to come.

 

[craigsub]

Gene - The dangers in skimming lie in what you miss ...

The graphs are not FR curves (yes, this was explained earlier, but reading through all this would take a long time) - they are low frequency bombasts from a few movie scenes. We will be doing some outdoor GP measurements as weather permits.

Good to see you here, though !

 

[jakeman]

excerpt from an up and coming Velodyne SMS-1 Review Clint and Myself are working on


1/2 wavelength of 50Hz is about 136 inches. Verify if any architectural features in or near your listening room behave as a Helmholtz resonator capable of producing dips at those two frequencies. These include staircases, duct work, closets, open hallway doors, etc. Some guidelines in interpreting what is real and what isn’t include:

1) Does the measurement anomaly go away when you move the microphone?
2) Does the measurement anomaly coincide with impedance curve of the system?
3) Does the measurement anomaly coincide with ½ wavelength of mic position relative to
the ground?
4) Does the measurement anomaly persist even after you try boosting that frequency
range?

If you answered YES to #1and #3 and #4 and NO to #2, you are likely dealing with a measurement anomaly. If you answered YES to #1 and 4,and NO to #2 & 3 it is likely you are either dealing with a room node.

More on this topic in our formal review to come.

That was very useful and informative. Can you give us SMS users an idea when to expect the review?

 

[gimisounds]

In the open

Craig,
I’m not sure if you noticed how many people on this thread have less than 10 posts, but it seems that your straightforward and honest approach and testing techniques are bringing people out of the woodworks, me being one of them. I think that if somebody has made the attempt to find threads such as these, then they are obviously serious about home theater and have taken the time to do the research to find what best suits their personal needs. Your time-consuming dedication to the community (as I have seen so many of your posts in the past) is truly an asset to all of us and I am thankful for people such as yourself who always keep a neutral perspective on things. I dedicate to you, Craig, my first post to thank you for the time and effort that you have contributed to enlighten us. I look forward to conclusion of your testing.

Cheers,

Gimi

PS if your wife ever tells you that you waste too much time on the internet, show her this post to demonstrate how much your work matters.

 

[Spearmint]

Craig,

It is great to see you still doing shootouts and reviews…

So far this thread has been very enlightening; hopefully it can stay that way.

BTW if you are going to do some CD testing, you may like to try this CD Beyond Skin - Nitin Sawhney for size.

The bottom end is sensational especially tracks 4, 6 & 9

Keep up the great work.

 

[craigsub]

Craig,
I’m not sure if you noticed how many people on this thread have less than 10 posts, but it seems that your straightforward and honest approach and testing techniques are bringing people out of the woodworks, me being one of them. I think that if somebody has made the attempt to find threads such as these, then they are obviously serious about home theater and have taken the time to do the research to find what best suits their personal needs. Your time-consuming dedication to the community (as I have seen so many of your posts in the past) is truly an asset to all of us and I am thankful for people such as yourself who always keep a neutral perspective on things. I dedicate to you, Craig, my first post to thank you for the time and effort that you have contributed to enlighten us. I look forward to conclusion of your testing.

Cheers,

Gimi

PS if your wife ever tells you that you waste too much time on the internet, show her this post to demonstrate how much your work matters.

Gimi - I showed my wife this post, and she congratulated me for figuring out how to log in under a different name ...

Thanks to you and Spearmint (and old friend) for the kind words. Honestly - this is pretty much fun. Hooking up the test gear takes very little time, and getting to meet a lot of other home theater enthusiasts is reward in itself.

I will do some on line searching for the disc you suggested, Spearmint - We have Fagen's new disc, Tool, and now Sawhney.

It may require ordering the discs, but if it takes a few days, so be it.

 

[mfabien]

Craigsub,

In the SVS FAQ page at:

http://www.svsound.com/questions-faqs.cfm

...at the bottom of the page I found this:

Johann Sebastian Bach "Toccata and Fugue in D minor" the quintessential organ bass classic. All below time selections from the Skinner/Schilicker organs, First Congregational Church in Los Angeles:

(0:00:31)*
(0:07:25)*
(0:08:25)*

I then bought the CD and played the piece one morning. At noon that day, my wife came for her lunch hour and asked me to explain why the trap door in the ceiling to access the attic was half open (my HT is in the basement!). I told her I had a new piece of organ music. She said: "If you play something that loud again, we will sell the house and you won't have your HT to play with!"

I have never heard anything as powerful as that Fugue in my system before. Would be interesting if you played it in your tests.

 

[stiletto pat]

Carpet Grip

Craig,

Great review thread - you've obviously been exceeding careful in running this comparison test, and it is most appreciated.

I don't know if you ever answered the question on the carpet grip solution. I'm very interested in that, since I own the HSU TN-1220 with their 500 watt amp, and although I absolutely love the system for it's musical bass, I also experience quite a bit of subwoofer "jumping" on the WOTW tracks you mentioned. I have the spikes sitting on plastic / felt carpet pads on a tile floor, so it would seem if I had a better way to secure it, the TN-1220 tube might not jump around quite so much. I hate to put down pieces of carpet for the spikes to grip, but of course, that too, might be the cure.

Of course, I'm still waiting for HSU to either start up production on the TN-1220 tubes, or for them to introduce a replacement/upgrade to the TN-1220, so that I can purchase another one to increase my headroom.

That's the story with us, always waiting for more, better.....

Pat

 

[craigsub]

Stilleto Pat - The Carpet gripper question was in regards to the turbo - and it works great at keeping the turbo in place, with no rattling.

Well .. I may have missed another question, though - if I did, please update me. The 1220's biggest "problem" is that it is 36 pounds of subwoofer will a LOT of power. The most successful methods of controlling it seem to be by placing it in its side.

And we have Tool's Aenima, David Gimore's On an Island, Donald Fagen's new Morph the Cat DVD-A, and the organ disc: Johann Sebastian Bach "Toccata and Fugue in D minor" ... They will be arriving between Monday and Friday of next week, if Amazon is correct ...

 

[Audiosouse]

Upgraditis or performance issues?

Hey Craig, long time no hear.

Man I'm realling enjoying this so far, as I'm in the market for new subs to replace my dual EP500's I just sold, along with the rest of my Axiom system.


Sutter

Hey Sutter, is your system change a bad case of upgraditis or performance not living up to expectations? Based on Axiom reviews at AH, especially the EP500 sub, it seams hard to believe performance is the issue, especially with two. Just curious.

 

[---k---]

Going back to what Gene was saying. I think Craig answered it correctly. But again, very slight differances in room position can make big differances. Though I really enjoy seeing those scene graphs, I think we need to be very careful in reading to much into those graphs. For the most part, there really isn't much differance between them (I think only one showed a significant differance). I wish there were some way to express the differances as like a % of what we can hear. I would venture to say 10-15% differance in SPL is likely not to be distinguishable, especially at the frequencies we are discussing here. However, I don't know how you would calculate that differance, because volume isn't linear like that and I think it needs to be normilzed to what we can hear.

Still, not trying to put a downer on things. I'm enjoying this more than anything recently. Its just with inroom testing, I place greater value subject impressions. When you take them outdoor, obviously I'll place a lot of weight on the GP data.

BTW, what is your receiver volume when running these scenes? I'm thinking I need to get TrueRTA and see what my twins are giving me at my seat.

 

[Duffman-OOHYEAH]

The list of music looks almost complete accounting for most genres. BUT if we really want to see want these monsters of the deep can do, well then why not step up to Techmaster PEB or Bass extreme (old school car woofer tests). Although they are pretty much just abrupt sinewaves set to phat beats. Craig if you want to throw these into the mix I have some Techmaster mp3s that I could email you.

If you feel like it, for round 2 of movies, hook up the ice field scene from Titan AE. In my book it's #2 after wotw underground pod scene. Did anyone else think we just needed a big hammer and play a little whack a mole with the pods and everything would have been all good.

JR

 

[Ray3]

Craig - congrats on your usual excellence with this kind of information! Always much appreciated. As another poster mentioned, I would also be interested in your general impressions of the Axiom 500 in relation to these 2 excellent subs.

 

[craigsub]

Going back to what Gene was saying. I think Craig answered it correctly. But again, very slight differances in room position can make big differances. Though I really enjoy seeing those scene graphs, I think we need to be very careful in reading to much into those graphs. For the most part, there really isn't much differance between them (I think only one showed a significant differance). I wish there were some way to express the differances as like a % of what we can hear. I would venture to say 10-15% differance in SPL is likely not to be distinguishable, especially at the frequencies we are discussing here. However, I don't know how you would calculate that differance, because volume isn't linear like that and I think it needs to be normilzed to what we can hear.

Still, not trying to put a downer on things. I'm enjoying this more than anything recently. Its just with inroom testing, I place greater value subject impressions. When you take them outdoor, obviously I'll place a lot of weight on the GP data.

BTW, what is your receiver volume when running these scenes? I'm thinking I need to get TrueRTA and see what my twins are giving me at my seat.

I have the receiver's volume set to 11, of course ... ... sorry, I could not resist. Seriously, for each movie listening test, I am setting the system at 7 dB below reference. That is 3 dB above the norm for us - but for the bass spectaculars, I am then increasing the volume until the sub sounds distorted - which, in the case of the VTF3-HO, the addition of the Carpet Grabber allowed a higher SPL before anything audible happened, because the rattling was gone.

The graphs are really just a "picture" of what I was hearing - I keep the microphone at the listening position. Hopefully, they are allowing everyone a look, objectively, at what I am hearing ... bringing subjective and objective together.

Yes, moving around the room will cause different response curves, even in a dynamic environment.

It looks like we may not be getting a break in the weather until April, though. I am pretty anxious to take some GP measurements... but there is something about "freezing rain, rain, sleet, and snow" that just won't allow it.