would I under/over power my speakers with these two receivers?

[bkraemer]

Hi all. New here. Great content on your forum. I've been over it quite a bit in the past days researching about what AV receiver to purchase. I have it down to two choices and I am concerned about going with either one as it relates to being power sized to work best with my speakers which are as follows...

Zone 1: Yamaha NS-200ma's (stereo pair) Rated 100W nominal, 200W peak each. 6 ohms. 90 dB sensitivity.
Zone 2: Realistic Minimus 7 (stereo pair) Rated 40W nominal each. 8 ohms. I don't know the sensitivity of these. Used in a kitchen. Utilitarian at best but sound pretty decent and heavy!
plus... a potential center channel speaker down the line for zone 1, TBD. I don't foresee using surround speakers.

With the above I wouldn't always be running both zones. 60% of the time just Zone 1. Mostly for home cinema use, some music use including turntable/digital. Zone 1 room is about 15' square and distance to speaker is about 12'. I do like music loud occasionally (like 90 + dB) but a lower home cinema level as a base line.

I'm considering the Marantz NR1609 which is 50W with 2 channels @ 8 Ohms and the Yamaha Aventage RX-A780 which is 95W with 2 channels @ 8 Ohms.

Since my mains are 6 ohms I am concerned that with a 95W output receiver I might get into trouble faster at higher dB and conversely I am concerned that if I went with the 50W I would be stressing the amp, especially with dual zones going for normal use.

What I can't find info on for either of these receivers is if the 7 channels of output each have their own amp or if it's one amp spread out across 7 channels.

The other factors are... the Marantz does fit my current cabinet much better than the Yamaha, which I'd end up blocking the top 1.5" of the Yamaha with some case moulding (edit: it would still have plenty of vent space above it's lid)... and I am not sure if that would affect IR reception or not. The Yamaha is a little more future proofed with Bluetooth 4.2 (Marantz is 3.0) and it has dual HDMI outputs, dual optical inputs where the Marantz has single of each, but none of these things are deal breakers.

The real question is: which amp is the better fit for my NS-200's. My gut says the 95W.

Thanks in advance!

bk

 

[lovinthehd]

The only reason I can think of to get the Marantz slim line is for it's form factor. Ventilation for an avr is important, tho so might even consider adding a fan or something....

It isn't that the speaker has a nominal power rating, it may have a max continuous or program power rating and it may have a peak rating but they're generally more about melting points than anything particularly useful. You can use this spl calculator to help estimate your amp needs for your speakers.

I wouldn't worry about the power of the amp particularly, unless you're just prone to drunken sessions where you turn the volume up all the way and can't tell that it's sounding like crap. Just use the volume control judiciously and you'll be fine...turn it down if it sounds bad.

Generally avrs have discrete amps but share a common power supply. All channels driven rating for surround content isn't all that important. Each channel at a given moment has the potential of it's rating per channel, and that isn't a real world scenario really; now if the same exact demand at the same moment is in all channels that may be a case for worrying about it....if you are worried about amp power get an avr with pre-outs for some flexibility.

The manuals for the gear would show you the location of IR reception point(s). I'd use wifi over bluetooth so wouldn't worry about what BT version its running, altho the better option might be nice if you must use bluetooth.

Try this for your Minimus 7s https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/realistic/minimus-7.shtml

 

[PENG]

I'm considering the Marantz NR1609 which is 50W with 2 channels @ 8 Ohms and the Yamaha Aventage RX-A780 which is 95W with 2 channels @ 8 Ohms.

Agreed with HD, and if form factor/or style is not the issue, you will get more, and probably for less with a Denon AVR-2400H/2600H. The NR series don't have HDAM anyway, that does not mean SQ won't be as good but it does mean it would be practically identical in parts and circuitry to Denon's except the Denon 2400 has a larger power supply and the 3400/3500 have even larger power supply and larger output devices as well. So the AVR-X3400/X3500H are definitely better in terms of power output and more importantly they have 7.1 pre outs for external power amp connection. I would avoid the RX-A series below the RX-A1080 model based on available bench measurements on similar models.

What I can't find info on for either of these receivers is if the 7 channels of output each have their own amp or if it's one amp spread out across 7 channels.

The NR1609 have 7 discrete power amplifiers, though all mounted on one circuit board. I don't know about the RX-A780 but I am quite sure its amps are discrete too.

 

[bkraemer]

I wouldn't worry about the power of the amp particularly, unless you're just prone to drunken sessions where you turn the volume up all the way

Well... I'm not not prone to the occasional misguided evening of enjoying my music too much ;-). But yeah... I know when it's sounding bad for sure.

The manuals for the gear would show you the location of IR reception point(s). I'd use wifi over bluetooth so wouldn't worry about what BT version its running, altho the better option might be nice if you must use bluetooth.

I have a Logitech Harmony One remote (IR) that i use to controll my current setup. I'd like to keep using that so IR placement is probably important. I'll have a look at the position in the manuals.

Try this for your Minimus 7s https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/realistic/minimus-7.shtml

Thanks for this. I still don't see sensitivity rating on these anywhere but this is a good datasheet otherwise. Nice speakers I have to say.

Thanks again!

 

[Gmoney]

you’ll be fine bro with what you have enjoy! Unless your just wanting to upgrade? than go with the a780 a lot more bells and whistles

 

[bkraemer]

So the AVR-X3400/X3500H are definitely better in terms of power output and more importantly they have 7.1 pre outs for external power amp connection.

I think if I decide form factor isn't the main thing... the AVR-X3500H is the right choice because of the surround pre outs and the larger amp with minimum impedance at 4 ohms. Thanks for this suggestion... I think it's probably a better choice than the Yamaha I was thinking about. The Denon is also $550 now at Crutchfield so it's more in my budget range.

Thanks!

 

[bkraemer]

you’ll be fine bro with what you have enjoy! Unless your just wanting to upgrade? than go with the a780 a lot more bells and whistles

I currently have an older Sony STR-DE185 with no video inputs, no HDMI. The Sony is starting to click on and off the A/B speaker outs randomly. Not sure how much it would cost to fix this but it's not an AV receiver.

My TV is an older Panny pro plasma... looks amazing and 4K is not my concern. I use the Plasma as the video switcher now and the Sony as the audio switcher, controlled via a Harmony remote.

My AppleTV is like second gen and desperately needs update. The new ones only have HDMI outs, no optical (how i'm currently taking sound from it via converter) so it's prompted a search for something new and I didn't want to just add loads of adapters to the system that was already having issues.

Getting an AV receiver will centralize all the switching and allow me to eliminate audio to the TV completely since they have optical in's. I can take my ATSC signal's audio going to the TV out the plasma via optical to the receiver and defeat once and for all the poop speakers in that monitor. (ATSC looks so much better than cable)

But what ever I get... the AV receiver isn't going to be something I will probably ever love. I am at heart a 2 ch guy but I need a swiss army knife-mostly future proofed solution for my legacy component analog video players, new media players, as well as a simpler setup for my wife to understand. Hence why i'm restricting my budget on this to sub $900. I just don't want to have to buy it twice.

 

[Gmoney]

oh okay yeah a upgrade would be a good thing

 

[PENG]

I think if I decide form factor isn't the main thing... the AVR-X3500H is the right choice because of the surround pre outs and the larger amp with minimum impedance at 4 ohms. Thanks for this suggestion... I think it's probably a better choice than the Yamaha I was thinking about. The Denon is also $550 now at Crutchfield so it's more in my budget range.

Thanks!

I hear you, by the way fyi my comments were based on what I noted from service manuals and bench test results, though I did have first hand experience comparing a X3400H briefly to my separates using both a Marantz prepro and Cambridge pre-amp with power amps. Take you time as you do have a Sony to hang on to, because prices will only go down when the 2020 models arrive.

 

[bkraemer]

I hear you, by the way fyi my comments were based on what I noted from service manuals and bench test results, though I did have first hand experience comparing a X3400H briefly to my separates using both a Marantz prepro and Cambridge pre-amp with power amps. Take you time as you do have a Sony to hang on to, because prices will only go down when the 2020 models arrive.

Crutchfield has an X3500H reboxed for less than $500. I think I'll probably just make a move so this is done.

Only downside to this seems to be the complexity of the setup and the 'apps' being part of everything you need to do.

I wish I had the $$$$ for separates and the time to research them... I'd be a lot more excited about all this... but I need to get a solution in place and move on.

Thanks again!

 

[PENG]

Crutchfield has an X3500H reboxed for less than $500. I think I'll probably just make a move so this is done.

Only downside to this seems to be the complexity of the setup and the 'apps' being part of everything you need to do.

I wish I had the $$$$ for separates and the time to research them... I'd be a lot more excited about all this... but I need to get a solution in place and move on.

Thanks again!

Using a 7.1 receiver for a 2 channel system is a tough pill to swallow especially if you mainly listen to music, yet it is a very cost effective way to do because of the availability of multiple discounted last year models to choose from. Your Yamaha NS-200MA speakers have good sensitivity of 90 dB/W/m so that doesn't look bad on paper because from 12 ft, 100 W would drive them to a little over 100 dB peak, 80 dB average but that would not leave you much (if any) headroom. If you are serious about pushing them to give you 90 dB average, 110 dB peak then I think you risk damaging the speakers if you pair them with a 1000 WPC power amp.

So it does seem like if you want to spend less than $600, the AVR-X3500H is an excellent option. The NR1609 would really struggle with those speakers unless you sit much closer and listen to no more than 75 dB average 105 dB peak. It would be best you keep the same level even with the X3500H, so as to get yourself 3-6 dB of healthy head room. I really don't think the NS-200MA are designed to be played loud. They are acoustic suspension after all, such design typically means more current demanding, to play the bass well. You should get a fan or two for the Denon.

https://www.amazon.com/AC-Infinity-MULTIFAN-Receiver-Playstation/dp/B00G05A2MU/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=s3+fan&qid=1580417059&sr=8-2

 

[bkraemer]

Thanks PENG and all... great input. I get the X3500H on Monday and I'll let you all know how it goes.

Thanks for the tip on the fans as well.

 

[PENG]

Thanks PENG and all... great input. I get the X3500H on Monday and I'll let you all know how it goes.

Thanks for the tip on the fans as well.

Don't forget to set Eco to "Off". If set to "auto", as soon as you turn the volume pass a certain point, the output may become too limited to keep the NS-200MA awake. You can try both though to see if you can hear a difference.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks for this. I still don't see sensitivity rating on these anywhere but this is a good datasheet otherwise. Nice speakers I have to say.

I didn't open up the manual until just now but would hope they'd have complete specs, but Radio Shack, meh....I suspect they're fairly low sensitivity, mid 80s would be my guess, Hoffman's Iron Law applies.

 

[Edgar Betancourt]

There is no such thing as too much power for a speaker!!! Never match speaker rated power handling to an amps rated power. You can drive a speaker rated at 100 watts with an amp rated at 1000 but you cant do the opposite! If you are pumping too much power the speakers will let you know with audible distortion. You can very easily damage speakers that supposedly have much higher power rating than your amp by driving a wimpy amp into clipping.

 

[lovinthehd]

There is no such thing as too much power for a speaker!!! Never match speaker rated power handling to an amps rated power. You can drive a speaker rated at 100 watts with an amp rated at 1000 but you cant do the opposite! If you are pumping too much power the speakers will let you know with audible distortion. You can very easily damage speakers that supposedly have much higher power rating than your amp by driving a wimpy amp into clipping.

So you couldn't drive speakers "rated" for 1000 W with a 100W amp? Why not? That's like choosing an amp just on speaker wattage ratings to begin with, kind of useless without consideration of other factors. There's always what is sufficient for your use.....or having in excess of your needs.

 

[Edgar Betancourt]

So you couldn't drive speakers "rated" for 1000 W with a 100W amp? Why not? That's like choosing an amp just on speaker wattage ratings to begin with, kind of useless without consideration of other factors. There's always what is sufficient for your use.....or having in excess of your needs.

You can but what for? Speakers with very high power ratings tend to be, of course, large floorstanding speakers that require high amounts of current to sound their best. A low power amplifier will run out of power long before it can drive them to their best performance. Worse yet, trusting that the speakers will "take" all the power from the amp without peril you drive it past its capacity and blow out the tweeters!

 

[lovinthehd]

You can but what for? Speakers with very high power ratings tend to be, of course, large floorstanding speakers that require high amounts of current to sound their best. A low power amplifier will run out of power long before it can drive them to their best performance. Worse yet, trusting that the speakers will "take" all the power from the amp without peril you drive it past its capacity and blow out the tweeters!

Speakers with high power capabilities are simply that. If you can achieve reasonable spl in your use with 100 watts of amplification, that's fine, even if the speaker has a higher capability. Usually large floorstanders are more sensitive than not, and only need as much current as they require for the level you wish. If you define best performance at a high spl, then, sure you may need a more powerful amp. You would hopefully simply turn the volume down if you weren't aware of the limitations of your hearing or your gear.

 

[Edgar Betancourt]

Speakers with high power capabilities are simply that. If you can achieve reasonable spl in your use with 100 watts of amplification, that's fine, even if the speaker has a higher capability. Usually large floorstanders are more sensitive than not, and only need as much current as they require for the level you wish. If you define best performance at a high spl, then, sure you may need a more powerful amp. You would hopefully simply turn the volume down if you weren't aware of the limitations of your hearing or your gear.

Yes and no. What is decent SPL? 75 or 105db?
If you have noted most speaker specs are quoted at 90db in fact quite loud. Therefore, to get what you paid for you need an amplifier that can drive your speakers to an average of that SPL PLUS, have the reserves to cover the program's dynamic range at that level thus at least twice as much juice for instantaneous peaks. That's why more power is always better. I used to drive my 803s with a 200 watt x2amp (up to 600w headroom)it was all fine and dandy till I wanted to listen at high SPL 90 db plus. At those levels it was obvious that some compression would start to creep in
Swapped it for a 450w amp (1.8kw peak) now there is no hint of any throttling at any any listenable SPL.Note the 803 is "rated" up to 600W. Again a more robust amp is always the right recipe.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes and no. What is decent SPL? 75 or 105db?
If you have noted most speaker specs are quoted at 90db in fact quite loud. Therefore, to get what you paid for you need an amplifier that can drive your speakers to an average of that SPL PLUS, have the reserves to cover the program's dynamic range at that level thus at least twice as much juice for instantaneous peaks. That's why more power is always better. I used to drive my 803s with a 200 watt x2amp (up to 600w headroom)it was all fine and dandy till I wanted to listen at high SPL 90 db plus. At those levels it was obvious that some compression would start to creep in
Swapped it for a 450w amp (1.8kw peak) now there is no hint of any throttling at any any listenable SPL.Note the 803 is "rated" up to 600W. Again a more robust amp is always the right recipe.

That would be whatever the user needs as far as spl goes, it's case specific. Glad you figured out what you needed to blast it.