Trouble with Bowers and Wilkins 804 D3

[yepimonfire]

It's not 84 dB, his speaker's sensitivity is 89 dB/2.83V 1 m, nominal impedance is 8 ohms. So if we use the minimum impedance of 3 ohms for the worse case, the corresponding sensitivity will be:

89 dB/2.67W/1 m, or 89-4.26 = 84.74 dB/1W/1m,

then we can use the calculator http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html to figure out what 200W can do for him.

The answer is 97.3 dB with no room gain, 3 dB more if place near a wall (2-4 ft), or 6 dB more if placed within 18-24 inches to corners.



Excellent point! I think you might have uncovered another potential reason for his trouble. As you alluded to, if it so happened that Audyssey boosted certain frequencies from their dips in the 60-200 Hz (I go with 60 because crossovers are not brick walls) in a big way, the online calculator could be off by a mile. In that case, it could easily explain his woofer trouble. In fact, the Audyssey editor screen shots do seem to indicate there are major boost in that range.

You don't get corner gain outside of low frequencies because speakers do not radiate omnidirectionally at mid/high frequencies. Generally a room gives about 3-4dB of gain, assuming good reflectivity.

Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk

 

[PENG]

You don't get corner gain outside of low frequencies because speakers do not radiate omnidirectionally at mid/high frequencies. Generally a room gives about 3-4dB of gain, assuming good reflectivity.

Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk

That's obvious, part of why I mentioned both scenarios. That being said, I suspect the bass contents will likely be the cause of most of the 20 dB peaks THX referenced to, in movies. Again, I agree with you, it's just there is always caveats.

 

[PENG]

He showed curve editor and results, but there's no "before & after". I haven't seen that representation from an RTA, either- it's much smoother than what REW and others show. 3-5dB is pretty mild, really. Look at the dips and peaks in the areas of just over 200 Hz, just under 300Hz and around 350Hz- those are drastic- the difference between the last two is around 16dB, upward.

I have no experience with the App so I would assume you may be right, or may be not. Regardless, I thought your point about boost by equalizers, like the example you cited, could well be the issue discussed here. As you said, it would be great if the OP can plot and post some REW graphs for us to use the before and post Audyssey effects.

 

[Patrick Butler]

Hi PENG,

I sit 16' from the pair of 800D3 that I use most often.

Regards,

Patrick

Sure but What's the distance ? The OP sits 15.5 feet in most likely a large room.

 

[Patrick Butler]

He showed curve editor and results, but there's no "before & after". I haven't seen that representation from an RTA, either- it's much smoother than what REW and others show. 3-5dB is pretty mild, really. Look at the dips and peaks in the areas of just over 200 Hz, just under 300Hz and around 350Hz- those are drastic- the difference between the last two is around 16dB, upward.

Is this not a "before & after"

 

[highfigh]

Is this not a "before & after"

I must have been attracted to the pretty colors. Sorry about that.

 

[PENG]

As I said before, I thought what you posted were in fact before and after Audssey did it's thing but for some reason Highfigh didn't seem to agree for some reasons. It is hard to decipher though without seeing the scales.

Questions:

1. Could you make it show both the x-axis frequency in Hz and the y-axis spl in dB? If yes, could you change the resolution, or what it might call "smoothing"?
2. Are those graphs just there after you ran Audyssey, that is "as found", or it's the final "as found" after you ran Audyssey and then use the Editor App to make changes?
3. Can you also post the camera shots of the graphs available under "check result" without using the Editor App at all?

 

[PENG]

Hi PENG,

I sit 16' from the pair of 800D3 that I use most often.

Regards,

Patrick

The 800 D3 should probably be able to play 8 to 10 dB louder. Compared to the 804 D3 it is like a Great Dane to a Husky.

 

[<eargiant]

Hi Turk,

Sorry to hear that you are having issues. I’ve spent a considerable amount of time hammering 804D3s with a Rotel RB-1590, and they sailed through the music. That said, you’ve got a problem, and I’d like to help out. PM me, and we’ll get this resolved.

Best regards,

Patrick Butler
Bowers & Wilkins

That's great to hear Patrick. That is the type of excellent customer support I'd expect from a top tier company especially on their top tier product. With the unparalleled sound quality I get from my 805D2s and this type of excellent service, I may never stray.

But none of these B&W speakers (including the 800Ds) can play extremely loud without the risk of breaking those brittle diamond tweeters.

Hogwash.

I’ve seen many destroyed diamond domes over the years, and they were fine about a second before a curious finger gave them a good, hard push.

Regarding playback levels, we crank our 800D3s past 105dB, and it’s simply not an issue.

Regards,

Patrick
Bowers & Wilkins

Agreed, I have no idea where he's getting that from.

I also have very eclectic musical tastes and have at times cranked up my 805D2s past 100dB with ALL (and I mean ALL) types of music (in a room appropriate for their size) and have never ever had a problem with the tweeters or the drivers. These speakers can really maintain their composure regardless of what I throw at them (within sane limits of course). I suppose source and amplification quality also play a part. The tweeter is the best I have ever heard, smooth, cool as a cucumber and composed even at over 100dB.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

With the unparalleled sound quality I get from my 805D2s and this type of excellent service, I may never stray.

I also have very eclectic musical tastes and have at times cranked up my 805D2s past 100dB with ALL (and I mean ALL) types of music (in a room appropriate for their size) and have never ever had a problem with the tweeters or the drivers.

I suppose source and amplification quality also play a part.

The tweeter is the best I have ever heard, smooth, cool as a cucumber and composed even at over 100dB.

I bought the B&W 802D2 brand new from a local B&W/ McIntosh dealer.

First pair (rosewood color) they professionally installed for me had a crack tweeter.

I refused to keep the 1st pair. So they took them back. And I ordered a 2nd pair (black).

Absolutely nothing special about the sound of the Diamond (D) tweeter. Tweeters from KEF 201/2, Salon2, Linkwitz Orion 3, Phil3, TAD, ATC, Focal, Dynaudio, RBH, Funk Audio, etc., all sounded equally as good.

I read from a few people who eventually sold their B&W D about how they had to replace the D tweeters, but they were using 300W amps and probably played too loud.

If they had punny 100W amps, they probably would not have cracked their D tweeters. But 300W at loud volume was too much.

I had ATI 300WPC, but I would never play very loud.

Still their stories scared me about the D tweeters. Also the fact that I already experienced 1 cracked D tweeter didn’t give any warm fuzzy feeling.

I actually felt better when I used the Denon AVR-3112 (about 100WPC) to power the 802D2.

But 300WPC scared me. Some idiot in-laws could come in and crank up the volume on my Denon AVP-A1HDCI/ATI AT3005 amp.

So I was very happy I sold my 802D2. Slept much better at night.

Moral of the story, people have destroyed their B&W D tweeters from using too much power and volume. And they didn’t push their tweeters with their fingers either.

If I owned $30K speakers with D tweeters, I would not try to push them hard with 300W and volume.

BTW, since you are into measurements, here is the measurements for the 805:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-805-d3-loudspeaker-measurements

Not good. B&W loves to spike their 10KHz with +7dB.

Do you have to take meclizine, scopolamine, promethazine, or ondansetron prior to listening to your 805D?

A SNR of 120dB and THD of 0% won’t help those measurements.

 

[PENG]

I bought the B&W 802D2 brand new from a local B&W/ McIntosh dealer.

First pair (rosewood color) they professionally installed for me had a crack tweeter.

I refused to keep the 1st pair. So they took them back. And I ordered a 2nd pair (black).

Absolutely nothing special about the sound of the Diamond (D) tweeter. Tweeters from KEF 201/2, Salon2, Linkwitz Orion 3, Phil3, TAD, ATC, Focal, Dynaudio, RBH, Funk Audio, etc., all sounded equally as good.

I read from a few people who eventually sold their B&W D about how they had to replace the D tweeters, but they were using 300W amps and probably played too loud.

If they had punny 100W amps, they probably would not have cracked their D tweeters. But 300W at loud volume was told much.

I had ATI 300WPC, but I would never play very loud.

Still their stories scared me about the D tweeters. Also the fact that I already experienced 1 cracked D tweeter didn’t give any warm fuzzy feeling.

I actually felt better when I used the Denon AVR-3112 (about 100WPC) to power the 802D2.

But 300WPC scared me. Some idiot in-laws could come in and crank up the volume on my Denon AVP-A1HDCI/ATI AT3005 amp.

So I was very happy I sold my 802D2. Slept much better at night.

Moral of the story, people have destroyed their B&W D tweeters from using too much power and volume. And they didn’t push their tweeters with their fingers either.

If I owned $30K speakers with D tweeters, I would not try to push them hard with 300W and volume.

BTW, since you are into measurements, here is the measurements for the 805:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-805-d3-loudspeaker-measurements

Not good. B&W loves to spike their 10KHz with +7dB.

Do you have to take meclizine, scopolamine, promethazine, or ondansetron prior to listening to your 805D?

A SNR of 120dB and THD of 0% won’t help those measurements.

JA did praise the mid range, enough for him to include them in their Class A recommended category, along with the much cheaper KEF LS50 that he seemed to think more neutral and natural in the highs.

Looking at the waterfalls, we better not let TheWarrior see it, or he may insist there are a couple of resonances.

 

[Turk]

Unfortunately the pro ap doesn’t place the numbers on the scale on the before and after so you will have to use this as a reference.

Here is my old b&w 7 series htm71 s2 that I have had since July and has survived through 8 804 d3 woofers being blown with no problem.

And here is my brand new diamond center htm2 d3 that blew a woofer within 20 minutes of the first movie that I watched.

You can see that both graphs are almost the same but 1 speaker lasted half a year with no issues and 1 well not even 1/4 of the way through a movie. Does anyone have any suggestions?

 

[PENG]

Unfortunately the pro ap doesn’t place the numbers on the scale on the before and after so you will have to use this as a reference.
View attachment 23616

Here is my old b&w 7 series htm71 s2 that I have had since July and has survived through 8 804 d3 woofers being blown with no problem.

View attachment 23617

And here is my brand new diamond center htm2 d3 that blew a woofer within 20 minutes of the first movie that I watched.

View attachment 23618

You can see that both graphs are almost the same but 1 speaker lasted half a year with no issues and 1 well not even 1/4 of the way through a movie. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Yes, could you please post the graphs I asked for in point#3 post#87? Again, you don't need the Editor App at all, the graphs should be there already, under check results and then equalizers.

Depend what I can see I may or may not have something to suggest. Thanks.

 

[Turk]

Here is my left and right

Here is my 7 series center

Here is the 8 series

 

[PENG]

I can see a lot of boost in the 60-80 Hz range 130-150 Hz (mid bass) and it is a tough one to solve because you can't increase the XO that high. For quick action, you can certainly try to raise XO for the L,R,C speakers to 90 Hz and listen to 5 dB below reference, that's 80 dB average, still quite loud.

Or you can take the time to try and move the L,R speakers a couple inches at a time in the hope that it may eliminate or reduce the dips that resulted in the boost by Audyssey. To do that, without using something like REW, it could take you hours because after each move you won't know the effect until you re-run Audyssey. You could shorten the time by just doing the main seat after each move, and only do all 8 positions once you find the sweet spot that does not cause Audyssey to boost so much.

Remember every 3 dB boost will cause the power output to double at that frequency, so 7 to 9 dB boost that the graphs show could be significant enough to cause some failures you have been experiencing, when combined with the fact that you listen to reference level SPL from 15.5 ft in a large room. The KEF R900 that you mentioned in your other thread will have much better chance surviving.

Obviously you can also select Audyssey LR bypass, but then you may complain about lack of bass in the range of 60-80 Hz and 130-150 Hz, or you may not miss it at all, or even prefer it.

 

[Turk]

I can see a lot of boost in the 60-80 Hz range 130-150 Hz (mid bass) and it is a tough one to solve because you can't increase the XO that high. For quick action, you can certainly try to raise XO for the L,R,C speakers to 90 Hz and listen to 5 dB below reference, that's 80 dB average, still quite loud.

Or you can take the time to try and move the L,R speakers a couple inches at a time in the hope that it may eliminate or reduce the dips that resulted in the boost by Audyssey. To do that, without using something like REW, it could take you hours because after each move you won't know the effect until you re-run Audyssey. You could shorten the time by just doing the main seat after each move, and only do all 8 positions once you find the sweet spot that does not cause Audyssey to boost so much.

Remember every 3 dB boost will cause the power output to double at that frequency, so 7 to 9 dB boost that the graphs show could be significant enough to cause some failures you have been experiencing, when combined with the fact that you listen to reference level SPL from 15.5 ft in a large room. The KEF R900 that you mentioned in your other thread will have much better chance surviving.

Obviously you can also select Audyssey LR bypass, but then you may complain about lack of bass in the range of 60-80 Hz and 130-150 Hz, or you may not miss it at all, or even prefer it.

I tried 5 different locations last night and move furniture around to try to help level it out but there is always a dip there. Do you know why the 7 series would not blow out but the 8 series over double the price I’m having issues with?

 

[PENG]

I tried 5 different locations last night and move furniture around to try to help level it out but there is always a dip there. Do you know why the 7 series would not blow out but the 8 series over double the price I’m having issues with?

Which 7 series? You are not comparing apple to apple unless you swap out the 804 with the 7XX in the exact same locations. Even then, the 7XX may not get the same Audyssey EQ boost in the same frequency ranges. It's really hard to say with too many unknowns.

Regarding dips, there are always some but what you are getting are a little on the high side. That typically is not an issue but in your case you have the bad combination of large room+long distance+listening to reference level. So if by moving things you managed to get the magnitude of the dips reduced a little, the boost will be reduced a little accordingly. Then you back off on the volume a little, move your seat forward by 3 ft, and it may just all add up to save the day and buy you time to get some speakers that are designed to play louder.

 

[Turk]

Which 7 series? You are not comparing apple to apple unless you swap out the 804 with the 7XX in the exact same locations. Even then, the 7XX may not get the same Audyssey EQ boost in the same frequency ranges. It's really hard to say with too many unknowns.

Regarding dips, there are always some but what you are getting are a little on the high side. That typically is not an issue but in your case you have the bad combination of large room+long distance+listening to reference level. So if by moving things you managed to get the magnitude of the dips reduced a little, the boost will be reduced a little accordingly. Then you back off on the volume a little, move your seat forward by 3 ft, and it may just all add up to save the day and buy you time to get some speakers that are designed to play louder.

Htm71 s2 is the b&w 7 series and htm2 d3 is the diamond series they are within about 1/16” of placement and the audyssey boost was almost identical. Yet the speaker over double the price blew out in 20 min and the cheaper speaker lasted from July with no issues.

 

[PENG]

Htm71 s2 is the b&w 7 series and htm2 d3 is the diamond series they are within about 1/16” of placement and the audyssey boost was almost identical. Yet the speaker over double the price blew out in 20 min and the cheaper speaker lasted from July with no issues.

I am confused, those are for center channel, and the 804 d3 are your left and right channels right? If so, it is not an apple to apple comparison.

 

[Turk]

I am confused, those are for center channel, and the 804 d3 are your left and right channels right? If so, it is not an apple to apple comparison.

When I got this system in July I had the 804 d3 as my left and right with a 7 series center. Since then I have blown 8 woofers on the left and right and about 1 week ago I finally got the diamond series center to match the left and right speakers. The first movie I watched with the New center the speaker blew out. This happened within the first 20min of the movie. I was just wondering why I never had any issues with the 7 series center but the new diamond series center blew right away. Looking at audyssey they both had almost the same corrections applied to them but the cheap one stood the test of time and a lot more action packed lowder movies and the expensive one died out on the very first explosion at not even the normal level I listen to.