Trouble with Bowers and Wilkins 804 D3

[Turk]

That didn't separate from the cone, it separated from the spider and that would be due to over-excursion. If the VC doesn't rub, this is likely a case of the speakers being driven hard plus equalization- the best combination for killing woofers, especially small ones.

Your decision to avoid the US- there's a problem here where the favorite word for many people is 'more'. Also, there's a problem with manufacturers stating that their products will do things they can't, such as produce 20Hz (shown as 'Frequency Range') or 24Hz (shown in the D3 specs with +/- 3dB from reference axis). Under controlled conditions, sure, but this isn't a real world spec and they shouldn't make people believe these speakers will produce the needed energy in that range when they're using 6.5" drivers. If Audussey was used and the mic happened to be in a null, this is easily the result of that and I'd like to see the response curve AND EQ settings.

The impedance of the woofer at 20Hz is about 20 Ohms, so I think the over-excursion was caused by boosting a higher frequency.

In engineering, this would fall under 'application error'- these speakers are being used for something other than what they were designed. Everything has a usable range of operation and it's the reason I didn't like easy access to graphic equalizers when I worked at a stereo store- it was only a matter of time before the customer came in with blown speakers.

I may have mentioned a trip to a high end shop last Fall- the owner was setting up a turntable and they had some music playing at a low SPL. I stood there and listened, then walked up to the speakers and listened for the dispersion and details of the music, then asked "Do a lot of people comment on the amount of detail they can hear when the music is at such a low level?" and he confirmed that it happens frequently.

If I had a dollar for every person who came into the store and when asked "What's the difference?" when I asked "Do you want loud, or good?", I could have retired a while ago.

Here are some screen shots from audyssey pro.

Can a good speaker not play loud?

 

[TLS Guy]

View attachment 23593 View attachment 23592 View attachment 23591




Here are some screen shots from audyssey pro.

Can a good speaker not play loud?

Yes, but you have to pay for it. As I said at the beginning to get that sound you crave and loud as well then you need the 800 D3. I know they can be good and loud. I have tested them.

There is absolutely no way a speaker with 6.5" drivers is going to play loud unless it is a high sensitivity low Q driver with a high Fs. In practice that means an Fs in the neighborhood of 60 Hz, and a sensitivity over 90 db 1 watt 1 meter. It will roll off around 65 Hz at least unless mounted in a very large back loaded horn, like Lowther speakers.

 

[TLS Guy]

That didn't separate from the cone, it separated from the spider and that would be due to over-excursion. If the VC doesn't rub, this is likely a case of the speakers being driven hard plus equalization- the best combination for killing woofers, especially small ones.

Your decision to avoid the US- there's a problem here where the favorite word for many people is 'more'. Also, there's a problem with manufacturers stating that their products will do things they can't, such as produce 20Hz (shown as 'Frequency Range') or 24Hz (shown in the D3 specs with +/- 3dB from reference axis). Under controlled conditions, sure, but this isn't a real world spec and they shouldn't make people believe these speakers will produce the needed energy in that range when they're using 6.5" drivers. If Audussey was used and the mic happened to be in a null, this is easily the result of that and I'd like to see the response curve AND EQ settings.

The impedance of the woofer at 20Hz is about 20 Ohms, so I think the over-excursion was caused by boosting a higher frequency.

In engineering, this would fall under 'application error'- these speakers are being used for something other than what they were designed. Everything has a usable range of operation and it's the reason I didn't like easy access to graphic equalizers when I worked at a stereo store- it was only a matter of time before the customer came in with blown speakers.

I may have mentioned a trip to a high end shop last Fall- the owner was setting up a turntable and they had some music playing at a low SPL. I stood there and listened, then walked up to the speakers and listened for the dispersion and details of the music, then asked "Do a lot of people comment on the amount of detail they can hear when the music is at such a low level?" and he confirmed that it happens frequently.

If I had a dollar for every person who came into the store and when asked "What's the difference?" when I asked "Do you want loud, or good?", I could have retired a while ago.

I think you are right! That photograph shows it has actually tron the spider. I have never seen that before. That is the result of total lunatic abuse of the speakers. There is absolutely no other explanation for that.

I agree about Eq, and Dynamic Eq gives a very nasty lick in the lower register.

I have been working with Audyssey and investigating it thoroughly over the last two and half weeks or so. I'm going to start writing it all up later today. I think the report will have to be in several parts due to expected length. That whole concept is highly flawed in many areas and now I know why.

 

[highfigh]

View attachment 23593 View attachment 23592 View attachment 23591




Here are some screen shots from audyssey pro.

Can a good speaker not play loud?

If the speaker sensitivity is in the 84dB/2.83V range and the impedance is 4 Ohms, it's not going to A) make a lot of amplifiers happy, B) reach the high SPL wanted by many people. 2.83V is the reference signal used for sensitivity, but you need to remember that it's equates to 2W in a 4 Ohm speaker, so 1W will result in roughly 81dB output. If you want 111 dB peaks, your amp needs to be able to produce 1000W, peak power. You will realize higher SPL at all frequencies because your room isn't anechoic, but the fact remains- your speakers are not sensitive. We read comments about equipment sounding 'effortless'- there's nothing effortless about driving a low sensivity speaker and my point was that loud does not equal good. Good is perceived, loud is measured and felt. If you want these speakers to survive, cross them over higher- your subs are producing more usable energy in the low end, anyway- using the B&Ws in the same range is probably costing you output and smoothness.

Also, the screen shots are from how Audyssey adjusted the response- if you want to know what the mic received, invert the graph and you'll see dips in places where the speakers don't want to see a boost, e.g., 25Hz.

I did car audio for a long time and built many systems with subs, lots of power and usually, an equalizer. If the user had access to the level controls and EQ, they usually blew up something. One froze his speaker cones because he boosted everything. If I had a chance to talk to people in order to explain how equalization should be used, they were usually fine unless the source material was recorded at an inordinately high level or they wanted extreme SPL but didn't have the power to make it happen. One system was in a '73 Pontiac Grand Prix and he had decided to make some big changes to the system since the other installer didn't have even a tiny clue as shown in his recommendation to use a sub-bass synthesizer AND an equalizer with baffle-mounted woofers that would never take that kind of pounding. I used four 10" woofers in a sealed enclosure with enough power to achieve high SPL. The electronics were the same as the old system and I added a pair of 6-1/2" mid-bass to the front doors. Once it was done and I had EQ's the system, he never used the sub-bass synthesizer again and I eventually removed it because the system measured flat to 25Hz. In a car. You're in a much larger space, so it's not the same because the difference in distance between the subs, main speakers and your ears is greater in your room. Where you sit matters, where the mic is placed matters and where the speakers are located WRT the room's walls and corners matters. A lot.

 

[Bucknekked]

Good is perceived, loud is measured and felt.

.

I love a good phrase. Good is perceived, loud is measured and felt. I'm gonna file that one away for future plagiarism.

 

[highfigh]

I think you are right! That photograph shows it has actually tron the spider. I have never seen that before. That is the result of total lunatic abuse of the speakers. There is absolutely no other explanation for that.

I agree about Eq, and Dynamic Eq gives a very nasty lick in the lower register.

I have been working with Audyssey and investigating it thoroughly over the last two and half weeks or so. I'm going to start writing it all up later today. I think the report will have to be in several parts due to expected length. That whole concept is highly flawed in many areas and now I know why.

I have seen it before and it's because the cone passed the gap.

I think dynamic EQ can be very useful, but it needs to be limited in its output. TC electronics came out with dynamic EQ for FOH audio, but those systems use compression/limiting anyway, so it's a bit of apples and oranges because a listening room won't see the wild variations in response due to climate, size of audience causing changes in reflected vs absorbed and diffused sound. I think use of an automatically set EQ system is risky for the speakers because the system isn't implemented in the same way as a THX certified theater (or any other system that was measured and tweaked to the same degree).

I have found that speakers with wide dispersion, placed in wildly reflective rooms with only a few items that can block the sound reaching the surfaces doesn't work. Conversely, using any speakers in a more absorptive room and trying to create a large "bubble" of good sound isn't great.

 

[highfigh]

I love a good phrase. Good is perceived, loud is measured and felt. I'm gonna file that one away for future plagiarism.

Monthly payments would work for me. I'll have my people contact your people.

 

[highfigh]

One thing that needs repeating (or saying, since I don't remember anyone else writing it)- the speakers must match the room. Small speakers in a large room DO NOT create the illusion that everything sounds the way it should. In a small to medium sized room, those speakers are all most people need but in a large room or when massive bass is desired, the low end needs to be removed from the signal going to the main speakers because the subs are doing the heavy lifting that the mains can't. If you don't hear or feel the frequencies from the main speakers that you want, don't try to force them to produce that sound- let the subs do it. The bass provides the intensity of sound across the band- remove the low end from a well-balanced system and it sounds like you took your speakers outside and there's a reason an outdoor festival uses so many low frequency drivers.

 

[Bucknekked]

The bass provides the intensity of sound across the band- remove the low end from a well-balanced system and it sounds like you took your speakers outside and there's a reason an outdoor festival uses so many low frequency drivers.

dang. another fine use of the language. I'm gonna rack up a big monthly bill. I may have to arrange financing.

 

[highfigh]

dang. another fine use of the language. I'm gonna rack up a big monthly bill. I may have to arrange financing.

My best friends call me "Mr Cash".

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Can a good speaker not play loud?

A great speaker can absolutely play extremely loud. Of course, it depends on your definition of "loud".

105dB?

110dB?

But none of these B&W speakers (including the 800Ds) can play extremely loud without the risk of breaking those brittle diamond tweeters.

As already mentioned several times, if you want great speakers that can play extremely loud, you would have to buy one of those "Towers of Power".

Here are a few examples:

http://www.audioholics.com/recommended-systems/towers-of-power-a-look-at-the-best-super-speakers

 

[Bucknekked]

A great speaker can absolutely play extremely loud. Of course, it depends on your definition of "loud".

105dB?

110dB?

But none of these B&W speakers (including the 800Ds) can play extremely loud without the risk of breaking those brittle diamond tweeters.

As already mentioned several times, if you want great speakers that can play extremely loud, you would have to buy one of those "Towers of Power".

Here are a few examples:

http://www.audioholics.com/recommended-systems/towers-of-power-a-look-at-the-best-super-speakers

there are some really nice speakers on that list.
I wish I had a room, a problem, and the budget to slap a pair of those JBL M2's in my house.
Perchance to dream........

 

[highfigh]

there are some really nice speakers on that list.
I wish I had a room, a problem, and the budget to slap a pair of those JBL M2's in my house.
Perchance to dream........

I'd be happy with the EV woofers I had before I bought my house. Didn't need to play loud, but when they did, it could be felt while sanding on the sidewalk outside.

 

[Patrick Butler]

I’ve seen many destroyed diamond domes over the years, and they were fine about a second before a curious finger gave them a good, hard push.

Regarding playback levels, we crank our 800D3s past 105dB, and it’s simply not an issue.

Regards,

Patrick
Bowers & Wilkins

A great speaker can absolutely play extremely loud. Of course, it depends on your definition of "loud".

105dB?

110dB?

But none of these B&W speakers (including the 800Ds) can play extremely loud without the risk of breaking those brittle diamond tweeters.

As already mentioned several times, if you want great speakers that can play extremely loud, you would have to buy one of those "Towers of Power".

Here are a few examples:

http://www.audioholics.com/recommended-systems/towers-of-power-a-look-at-the-best-super-speakers

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

1. I’ve seen many destroyed diamond domes over the years, and they were fine about a second before a curious finger gave them a good, hard push.

2. Regarding playback levels, we crank our 800D3s past 105dB, and it’s simply not an issue.

I wouldn't try either of those things at home after spending $30K on the speakers.

 

[PENG]

I’ve seen many destroyed diamond domes over the years, and they were fine about a second before a curious finger gave them a good, hard push.

Regarding playback levels, we crank our 800D3s past 105dB, and it’s simply not an issue.

Regards,

Patrick
Bowers & Wilkins

Sure but What's the distance ? The OP sits 15.5 feet in most likely a large room.

 

[PENG]

If the speaker sensitivity is in the 84dB/2.83V range and the impedance is 4 Ohms, it's not going to A) make a lot of amplifiers happy, B) reach the high SPL wanted by many people. 2.83V is the reference signal used for sensitivity, but you need to remember that it's equates to 2W in a 4 Ohm speaker, so 1W will result in roughly 81dB output. If you want 111 dB peaks, your amp needs to be able to produce 1000W, peak power.

It's not 84 dB, his speaker's sensitivity is 89 dB/2.83V 1 m, nominal impedance is 8 ohms. So if we use the minimum impedance of 3 ohms for the worse case, the corresponding sensitivity will be:

89 dB/2.67W/1 m, or 89-4.26 = 84.74 dB/1W/1m,

then we can use the calculator http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html to figure out what 200W can do for him.

The answer is 97.3 dB with no room gain, 3 dB more if place near a wall (2-4 ft), or 6 dB more if placed within 18-24 inches to corners.

Also, the screen shots are from how Audyssey adjusted the response- if you want to know what the mic received, invert the graph and you'll see dips in places where the speakers don't want to see a boost, e.g., 25Hz.

Excellent point! I think you might have uncovered another potential reason for his trouble. As you alluded to, if it so happened that Audyssey boosted certain frequencies from their dips in the 60-200 Hz (I go with 60 because crossovers are not brick walls) in a big way, the online calculator could be off by a mile. In that case, it could easily explain his woofer trouble. In fact, the Audyssey editor screen shots do seem to indicate there are major boost in that range.

 

[highfigh]

It's not 84 dB, his speaker's sensitivity is 89 dB/2.83V 1 m, nominal impedance is 8 ohms. So if we use the minimum impedance of 3 ohms for the worse case, the corresponding sensitivity will be:

89 dB/2.67W/1 m, or 89-4.26 = 84.74 dB/1W/1m,

then we can use the calculator http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html to figure out what 200W can do for him.

The answer is 97.3 dB with no room gain, 3 dB more if place near a wall (2-4 ft), or 6 dB more if placed within 18-24 inches to corners.



Excellent point! I think you might have uncovered another potential reason for his trouble. As you alluded to, if it so happened that Audyssey boosted certain frequencies from their dips in the 60-200 Hz (I go with 60 because crossovers are not brick walls) in a big way, the online calculator could be off by a mile. In that case, it could easily explain his woofer trouble. In fact, the Audyssey editor screen shots do seem to indicate there are major boost in that range.

Where the heck did I find 84dB? I looked at their site before posting, although I think I ball parked it from the 2.83V input yielding 89dB and fudged the effect of the lower impedance and then, to show my freaking brilliance, I used the wrong units and we still got almost the same number. Ta daaaaa!

The slope isn't infinite, but it's a lot steeper than if they were passive and I think you're looking at 60Hz as being boosted, when it was a peak in the response and has either been pulled back, or it's a phase cancellation. There are other peaks in the 50Hz, 40Hz and 25Hz areas, post Audyssey.

I would like to see the response without any EQ.

 

[PENG]

The slope isn't infinite, but it's a lot steeper than if they were passive and I think you're looking at 60Hz as being boosted, when it was a peak in the response and has either been pulled back, or it's a phase cancellation. There are other peaks in the 50Hz, 40Hz and 25Hz areas, post Audyssey.

I would like to see the response without any EQ.

I thought I was in fact looking at before vs after , didn't he post both?

For avr , Audyssey can boost up to 9 dBdB . I just check mine, the FR has 3 to 5 dB boost between 60 to 85 hz , that's not insignificant if one pushes the speakers close to their limits .

 

[highfigh]

I thought I was in fact looking at before vs after , didn't he post both?

For avr , Audyssey can boost up to 9 dBdB . I just check mine, the FR has 3 to 5 dB boost between 60 to 85 hz , that's not insignificant if one pushes the speakers close to their limits .

He showed curve editor and results, but there's no "before & after". I haven't seen that representation from an RTA, either- it's much smoother than what REW and others show. 3-5dB is pretty mild, really. Look at the dips and peaks in the areas of just over 200 Hz, just under 300Hz and around 350Hz- those are drastic- the difference between the last two is around 16dB, upward.