The Dolby Atmos, DTS-X, and Auro-3D Discussion Thread

[VonMagnum]

When exactly did I indicate Dts:X is not an object based format? Dts:X is an object based format, Neural X is not. Dts:X is layout agnostic because it works with polar coordinates relative from the MLP.

You should have lead with this in the first place. (Denon Manual, surround setting)

I wasn't trying to prove something, but educate and I can't really look things up when I'm at work too well. Again, I've been told DTS:X objects are not the same as Atmos ones (or at the very least haven't been used like Atmos ones by most thus far, locking channels into place. But as I said, even with 16 locked channels set up, X with Neural X can still use all 30.2 speaker locations by expanding to the in-between speakers with Neural X. It also means 7.1.4 soundtracks aren't limited to 7.1.4 (they could at the very least use 22.2 speakers, which is much better than Atmos locked to 7.1.4, especially for larger home theaters that need the extra speakers to give smooth panning). If Neural X could be applied to Disney locked 7.1.4, that would be a boon. Unfortunately, even if it could, Dolby won't allow it. They'd rather force you to use 11.1 speakers maximum and use an inferior upmixer.

This is a diagram of all the possible speaker locations for DTS:X. As you can see, "side height" and "top middle" are treated as one and the same thing (Lhs/Ltm + Rhs/Rtm) so it's actually 32.2 possible if you view them as separate speaker locations. I'm already using over half these locations.

 

[VonMagnum]

@AcuDefTechGuy, I'll have to pick up the DTS:X version of Snow White (4K) at some point if it's that good. would have in the first place, but a review said the opposite (that Winter's War was better for overhead than Snow White).

Edit: I've ordered Snow White in 4K with DTS:X. It'll be here Saturday.

 

[VonMagnum]

I've got Snow White in DTS:X now. I'll try to watch it tonight.

Interestingly, I just read that Venom will be released in IMAX Enhanced with DTS:X sound as one if the first mainstream titles to be released (and Imax ratios!).

Also interesting, apparently Fandango Now will have exclusive streaming rights for Imax Enhanced titles for at least a full year starting later this year. Yes DTS:X streaming! Hopefully, this will be a high end streaming service with MasterHD quality, not some weaker lossy version (there is a lesser known lossy version of DTS HD that still uses much higher rates than DD+, but to my knowledge it has never been paired with X thus far, although it might very well be capable and perhaps has been all along.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

@AcuDefTechGuy, I'll have to pick up the DTS:X version of Snow White (4K) at some point if it's that good. would have in the first place, but a review said the opposite (that Winter's War was better for overhead than Snow White).

Edit: I've ordered Snow White in 4K with DTS:X. It'll be here Saturday.

Unless the reviewers were watching a different version than mine, Snow White DTSX sound is 100% better than Winter’s War from beginning to end. Winters War DTSX sound was more subtle and has its moments, but not a demo disc for DTSX.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I just finished watching “Cliffhanger” remastered in Atmos.

I think they did a great job with the sound. I would consider it an Atmos demo disc.

A lot of overhead sounds from start to finish: rain, snow, wind, water, leaves, tree branches, bullets, bombs, planes, bats, music, and a million helicopters. Did I leave anything out?

 

[VonMagnum]

I watched Snow White in DTS:X. I don't know what you're hearing that you think it's '100%' better than Winter's War AcuDefTechGuy. It had some good moments (e.g. thunder, tree rustling, birds, waterfall like splashes), but no more so than Winter's War, IMO. The first 20 minutes or so were terrible for surround in general and many moments during the movie seemed like all the sounds (even crickets) were coming from the screen rather than all around. I did enjoy watching Kristen Stewart, though. She's quite lovely.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I watched Snow White in DTS:X. I don't know what you're hearing that you think it's '100%' better than Winter's War AcuDefTechGuy. It had some good moments (e.g. thunder, tree rustling, birds, waterfall like splashes),but no more so than Winter's War, IMO. The first 20 minutes or so were terrible for surround in general and many moments during the movie seemed like all the sounds (even crickets) were coming from the screen rather than all around. I did enjoy watching Kristen Stewart, though. She's quite lovely.

That is interesting.

00:03:00 - birds chirping (Snow White and William by tree)

00:05:00 - battle scene - demon soldier body parts (black crystals) chopped to pieces and the pieces scatters from bottom to overhead.

00:05:16 - post battle - smoke, ashes, dusts rises into the air

00:07:00 - marriage in church - music and choir echos above

00:08:55 - castle gate is pulled up, arrows fly overhead

00:10:12 gate closes from top to bottom

00:12:50 Mirror mirror on the wall - speaks overhead

00:17:00 Water pours down to people on street

00:19:25 Heartbeat overhead

00.19:55 ocean tides splash loudly on rocks and sounds overhead

00:21:40 voices overhead when Ravenna sucks the life out of Greta.

00:22:20 - 00:23:00 Mirror talks from overhead

00:27:35 ocean water splashes overhead

00:28:48 Thunder overhead

00:29:48 trees

00:30:00 thunder

00:31:00 - 32:20 all kinds of creature noises overhead in forest

Plenty of overhead sounds to me.

What about the few scenes I already mentioned - the ravens fly around Ravenna in castle?

 

[VonMagnum]

I think what it is that's different is that you're somehow getting "distinct" differences between side surround and "height" whereas mine blend together (the birds is a good example; they weren't just flying overhead, they were flying around in a whirlwind from bottom to top of the side walls. It was a neat effect, but it wasn't "overhead" per se. It's probably a result of me using heights + side heights rather than ceiling speakers (I don't recall where your overheads are located; perhaps you could describe your layout positions or share a photo).

Thus, things that go "side height" (at speaker or out of phase) are more like high side wall effects here. If the same sound is also in the side surrounds they tend to 'blend' into a giant wall of sound (sometimes it's blatantly obvious it's "lower" or "higher" but "both" sounds like a giant wall (as you might imagine it would with heights right above sides). This gives a more "where's the speaker" type effect so I don't tend to notice side height as much as "in-phase" height information that goes over the middle of the ceiling here. Front heights are the same way. Sometimes, it's obvious things are up by the ceiling, but other times they just blend together (especially since I have dialog lift which can already put dialog at mid-screen height).

Thus, what I call "overhead" or "ceiling" effects are in-phase effects between the height speakers across the room length (imagine stereo stuff between the speakers instead of at far left/right or out-of-phase "outside" the mains. So the effects I mentioned above are the ones I noticed/remembered coming directly from various parts of the ceiling overhead. There was some birds flying overhead at various points, but the scene where they were surrounding here before she turned into the birds to poison Snow White was spinning like a whirlwind around me. I'm sure it was using the side heights here, but that's not the same as flying over the middle of the ceiling. Given visually most of the birds were around here and not over her head, I think that makes sense in terms of the sound placement.

But if you have your overheads more centered on the ceiling, even sounds "at" the speakers will seem to be more directly overhead. This also depends on how wide your room and how far apart your speakers are in general (even if my sides were in line with my front/rear heights which are just outside the mains (so they don't interfere with the screen and so the mains still do dialog panning right in movies that use panned dialog),they would still seem closer to the outside walls than in other rooms (in fact the side heights are only 20 inches from where they would sit on the ceiling, which isn't exactly much of an imaging difference, so small in fact the helicopter demo doesn't even appear to alter course). I've seen a DTS layout where the overheads were in a very tight area around the middle. That would limit overheads to the middle ceiling. They also wouldn't pan very far at all and perhaps not blend so well with the lower sides.

But I'm guessing your overheads are more centered overall and more likely to be on the ceiling. I'm also guessing whomever reviewed Snow White in the review that lead me to just get the 7.1 soundtrack version on the HD Blu-Ray probably has more spread-out overheads than yours as well (as I think they noticed some of the same scenes I did for overhead effects although I think I noticed 4x as many as they did),but then that's just a guess.

I'm sure things like the arrows were up there, but other sounds/music are going on and they seemed "minor" compared to the overall effect to me. My overheads are balanced. Many people play them 2-6dB louder than the bed speakers so they can be heard better. I don't know if you increased yours or not.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think what it is that's different is that you're somehow getting "distinct" differences between side surround and "height" whereas mine blend together (the birds is a good example; they weren't just flying overhead, they were flying around in a whirlwind from bottom to top of the side walls. It was a neat effect, but it wasn't "overhead" per se. It's probably a result of me using heights + side heights rather than ceiling speakers (I don't recall where your overheads are located; perhaps you could describe your layout positions or share a photo).

Thus, things that go "side height" (at speaker or out of phase) are more like high side wall effects here. If the same sound is also in the side surrounds they tend to 'blend' into a giant wall of sound (sometimes it's blatantly obvious it's "lower" or "higher" but "both" sounds like a giant wall (as you might imagine it would with heights right above sides). This gives a more "where's the speaker" type effect so I don't tend to notice side height as much as "in-phase" height information that goes over the middle of the ceiling here. Front heights are the same way. Sometimes, it's obvious things are up by the ceiling, but other times they just blend together (especially since I have dialog lift which can already put dialog at mid-screen height).

Thus, what I call "overhead" or "ceiling" effects are in-phase effects between the height speakers across the room length (imagine stereo stuff between the speakers instead of at far left/right or out-of-phase "outside" the mains. So the effects I mentioned above are the ones I noticed/remembered coming directly from various parts of the ceiling overhead. There was some birds flying overhead at various points, but the scene where they were surrounding here before she turned into the birds to poison Snow White was spinning like a whirlwind around me. I'm sure it was using the side heights here, but that's not the same as flying over the middle of the ceiling. Given visually most of the birds were around here and not over her head, I think that makes sense in terms of the sound placement.

But if you have your overheads more centered on the ceiling, even sounds "at" the speakers will seem to be more directly overhead. This also depends on how wide your room and how far apart your speakers are in general (even if my sides were in line with my front/rear heights which are just outside the mains (so they don't interfere with the screen and so the mains still do dialog panning right in movies that use panned dialog),they would still seem closer to the outside walls than in other rooms (in fact the side heights are only 20 inches from where they would sit on the ceiling, which isn't exactly much of an imaging difference, so small in fact the helicopter demo doesn't even appear to alter course). I've seen a DTS layout where the overheads were in a very tight area around the middle. That would limit overheads to the middle ceiling. They also wouldn't pan very far at all and perhaps not blend so well with the lower sides.

But I'm guessing your overheads are more centered overall and more likely to be on the ceiling. I'm also guessing whomever reviewed Snow White in the review that lead me to just get the 7.1 soundtrack version on the HD Blu-Ray probably has more spread-out overheads than yours as well (as I think they noticed some of the same scenes I did for overhead effects although I think I noticed 4x as many as they did),but then that's just a guess.

I'm sure things like the arrows were up there, but other sounds/music are going on and they seemed "minor" compared to the overall effect to me. My overheads are balanced. Many people play them 2-6dB louder than the bed speakers so they can be heard better. I don't know if you increased yours or not.

My Ceiling speakers (about 6 Ft from the side walls, room is 22 Ft wide) and Center speaker are 3dB higher than the mains and surrounds.

Different setup/configuration will yield different results for sure.

But I have a strong feeling that “Cliffhanger” in Atmos will have significant OH sound for every setup.

 

[VonMagnum]

I just watched Megamind 3D (7.1), The Secret Life of Pets (Atmos) and Upside Down 3D (5.1).

The Secret Life of Pets was the most disappointing sound wise. Despite the Atmos label, I actually went over and listened to my top middle side heights and they were DEAD during large segments. I mean nothing. No ambience, music, nothing. Bed surrounds were highly active. This comes down to poor mixing and nothing else as far as I can see. The problem seems to be some of these mixing guys have no idea WTF they're doing with Atmos, IMO. Too many soundtracks are all over the place.

Now by comparison, Megamind was AWESOME with Neural X. The bed soundtracks were clearly well defined to begin with (sounds all over the place all of the time including loads way behind me which often seems ignored on Atmos soundtracks for some unknown reason). Lots of overhead sounds, mixed pans and music overhead. It was better than the average Atmos or X soundtrack, IMO. Neural X is simply awesome with the overhead stuff.

Next was Upside Down (a weird movie if there ever was one with dual-gravity worlds, etc. etc.) and as you might imagine, that would imply TONS of things "should" be on the ceiling at points where the two worlds collide (in an office building no less) and despite being in 5.1 and you'd think that it couldn't get voices, explosions, etc. in the right position but they WERE! It didn't matter what the sound was, Neural X just seemed to "know" when it was happening in the other world on the ceiling. It was incredible, really. These weren't just birds, helicopters, etc., but voices, explosions, you name it (normal office sounds even) and the movie was in TrueHD/Dolby Digital, not even DTS (I forced Neural X). I'm more and more impressed by Neural X. It can turn canned tuna into a gourmet meal.

Overall, I'm actually starting to wonder if it wouldn't be better to watch the more disappointing Atmos soundtracks in Neural X. It might do a LOT better than poor film mixing engineers that are afraid to put things up top.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm actually starting to wonder if it wouldn't be better to watch the more disappointing Atmos soundtracks in Neural X.

I have definitely made that conclusion.

There are some bad Atmos and DTSX (and Auro3D) movies that would get better overhead sound by just using DTS/DD and letting NeuralX upmix.

I am watching everything that is not Atmos/DTSX in NeuralX.

Like I was watching the Oscars this past Sunday in NeuralX.

NeuralX probably saved the Oscars and the Super Bowl for me.

 

[VonMagnum]

The only thing I don't watch in Neural X that is non-Atmos/X/Auro are my DTS Music albums and regular stereo music CDs. For some reason, they don't sound as good with overheads with many of them. They do sound awesome with the matrixed wides and a bit of dialog lift, though (as does 'stereo' with the front wides and a bit of lift on the heights).

I've also recently done more room treatments (I've got two Thomas Kincade tapestries installed in the front on the side walls which completely eliminated some flutter echo that was there. I've got a few bass traps to install next. I'm also working on decorating the room more now (I've got movie props replicas on order from the full size Maltese Falcon made from the original cast to the idol head and medallion from Raiders of the Lost Ark and an FX lightsaber from Star Wars to mount on the walls (probably rearrange my movie posters to have the props near the related poster for each when possible). I've already got a Hellraiser cube replica in a glass case now near my new lamps so it lights up when the lights come on and a Tron Lightcycle model on a shelf. The trick will be to make it all look classy instead of junky.

 

[VonMagnum]

My Maltese Falcon arrived today and must have brought me some luck as I took my old malfunctioning Marantz SR7010 (blinking with 'short' fault) apart and found a loose circuit card and tightened it up and tested it and it's working again! At least for the moment). Now what to do with it.... I suppose I could now have discrete front wides and 10 overheads (adding "tops" to the existing front/rear heights and top middle) by connecting them together (HDMI out from 7012 to in on 7010 plus the "remote" connection so they both change volume, etc. at the same time)..

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

For Atmos overhead sound, are any of the Avenger movies (Avengers, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Captain America) any good? I heard they're not very good, at least some of them.

That is sad since some older movies like "Cliffhanger" have great overhead Atmos sound.

 

[panteragstk]

So I got a copy of the new Jumanji movie that has both Atmos and Auro-3D, but my 4300h didn't come with Auro-3D out of the box. It's apparently a $200 upgrade. Worth it? I'm thinking no, especially since I have an Atmos speaker layout.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Audio Signal for some movies. Interesting that some movies have a +4dB Dialogue Boost and some have +0dB. You can clear tell which ones have the +4dB boost.

Hunter Killer:

Cliffhanger:

Snow White and the Huntsman:

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So I got a copy of the new Jumanji movie that has both Atmos and Auro-3D, but my 4300h didn't come with Auro-3D out of the box. It's apparently a $200 upgrade. Worth it? I'm thinking no, especially since I have an Atmos speaker layout.

I say hells no it’s not worth $200.

What a rip off.

 

[VonMagnum]

Yeah people will spend $2200 or even $4500 on a receiver, but $200 is too much (hell I just bought a lightsaber that cost almost that much just as a prop for the room decor and an Indiana Jones golden idol (looks great on my bookshelf). OTOH, most Auro-3D movies sound very similar to the Atmos versions so unless there's some music you've got to have, it's not really needed.

 

[panteragstk]

I say hells no it’s not worth $200.

What a rip off.

Figured as much.

 

[panteragstk]

Yeah people will spend $2200 or even $4500 on a receiver, but $200 is too much (hell I just bought a lightsaber that cost almost that much just as a prop for the room decor and an Indiana Jones golden idol (looks great on my bookshelf). OTOH, most Auro-3D movies sound very similar to the Atmos versions so unless there's some music you've got to have, it's not really needed.
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Yeah, I figured that'd be the opinion of pretty much everyone. Especially for the whole two movies I have with that codec.