The Dolby Atmos, DTS-X, and Auro-3D Discussion Thread

[panteragstk]

Don't know if I want to take any chances on any more updates.

Next thing you know we won't be able to use NeuralX on any DD sources.

Maybe I shouldn't be using too much NeuralX just in case. Don't want to miss it too much if that happens.

I'm hoping it only applies to the new devices that were release after the restriction was announced. I'd be pissed if my receiver updated and restricted me.

 

[snakeeyes]

I'm hoping it only applies to the new devices that were release after the restriction was announced. I'd be pissed if my receiver updated and restricted me.

So my RX-A2060 and RX-V681 are 2016 models and my RX-A770 is a 2017 model. Hopefully none of these are ever affected (esp the 2060).

 

[VonMagnum]

Don't know if I want to take any chances on any more updates.

Next thing you know we won't be able to use NeuralX on any DD sources.

Maybe I shouldn't be using too much NeuralX just in case. Don't want to miss it too much if that happens.

I let other people be the guinea pig (i.e. ask someone else who already did the update if it still works before proceeding).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Think Gene will tell us first.

IOW, don’t do any updates until Gene says so.

 

[snakeeyes]

IOW, don’t do any updates until Gene says so.

Think there is a way to roll back updates if you use usb method. Like you save first. Not sure.

 

[Bookmark]

I had the Yamaha 5100 update tail end of last year, after their 2018 models already complied with Dolby and no changes have been made. Marantz 6012 updated this year, a couple of weeks ago and nothing changed there either.

Going forward all new models should have to comply with Dolby. I think Denon/Marantz had to comply as of 1 Jan 2019 for new models so that is probably the date for others as well. This may yet affect some 2018 models, but I think 2017 and back are likely safe.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I had the Yamaha 5100 update tail end of last year, after their 2018 models already complied with Dolby and no changes have been made. Marantz 6012 updated this year, a couple of weeks ago and nothing changed there either.

Going forward all new models should have to comply with Dolby. I think Denon/Marantz had to comply as of 1 Jan 2019 new models so that is probably the date for others as well. This may yet affect some 2018 models, but I think 2017 and back are likely safe.

I am waiting for Gene to do a review of the CX-A5200 to see if it has the Dolby restrictions.

Back then I didn't care about this restriction. But now that I have used NeuralX for everything non-Atmos, I do care a lot.

 

[Bookmark]

I'm pretty sure that was part of the reason there's not a world of difference between the 51 and 52 so that we didn't have to get the update. I have seen people with the 5200 suggested that it does the same as the xx80 models. I would still like the interface improvement, but we may have seen the last of the big updates.

I don't think it is too onerous with the "Auto" mode but it does affect the up mixer. You don't get anything beyond 5.1 out. unclear if it applies equally to both DSU and Neural X though

 

[VonMagnum]

I think they should challenge it in court. I don't think it's remotely legal for them to "order" them to do that in Europe. I'm not sure it's totally legal in the US technically either as it's applying processing to a signal after the fact and ordering them to do this or that would be like Kellog's saying you can't put Almond milk on their raisin bran as it's part of the contract when you buy the cereal. Ludicrous. It's not like you get to choose which signals are available on Apple or Blu-Ray. The studios and/or Apple decide that FOR you. This actually stops things like Virtual X from even working with most signals. Could Sony stop people from making blank Beta tapes? No, antitrust law forbids companies from "tying" things like specific brands of paper to a printer (the problem is antitrust law isn't really enforced on that level anymore since we officially became the Corporate States of America).

The fact Dolby will allow someone like say Yamaha to make their own Neural X upmixer and apply it to Atmos even shows it's all horse manure. Even so, not allowing Neural X with Virtual X with Atmos is one thing. Not allowing them with TrueHD or Dolby Digital signals (the latter aren't even patented any longer so Dolby has ZERO say over what can be done with them) is what's really ridiculous, IMO. You can just output those as PCM and apply it ANYWAY so it's 100% absurd. It's just a hoop to jump through for the consumer (e.g. I can output any signal by Dolby save Atmos as multi-channel PCM from either my PS4 or KODI and get around it so WTF is the point with those signals???)

AFAIK, the 6013, 7013, etc. don't enforce it either. We won't know until next year's models come out whether Marantz or Denon will start enforcing it. But based on DTS Virtual X, there's a good chance they'll just bend over for Dolby. Hopefully, one of the vendors will challenge it in court. It's bad business for everyone but Dolby and it seems they'll do anything to get rid of DTS and Auro-3D (not that the latter is even a threat at this point).

Who is this "Gene" person you guys are talking about? A reviewer here?

 

[Bookmark]

Who is this "Gene" person you guys are talking about? A reviewer here?

https://www.audioholics.com/author/Gene

The fact Dolby will allow someone like say Yamaha to make their own Neural X upmixer and apply it to Atmos

Why exactly would up mix an Atmos track? Yes to True HD and below, but you gain nothing doing it to an Atmos.

It was an entirely stupid pointless decision on Dolby's part and one most likely to backfire. If they are unhappy with comparisons to Neural X improve the DSU. I believe the common consensus currently is Auromatic or DSU for music and perhaps Neural X for films.

I am waiting for Gene to do a review of the CX-A5200

I too look forward to it. It took a while for the 5100, a year after I had one, but it was still mighty re-assuring when it finally dropped.

 

[VonMagnum]

My point is not why you'd want to upmix Atmos, but the fact Dolby is expressly allowing it for whom they consider non competitors.

As for a reason why one might want to upmix Atmos, perhaps because Disney locks their Atmos tracks to 7.1.4 and and an upmixer could expand it to more speakers like Neural X does for X including letting you use center height, side height and the VOG with Atmos soundtracks when sounds approach those locations.

 

[Bookmark]

like Neural X does for X including letting you use center height, side height and the VOG

That does not work with Dts:X it turns off Neural X, exactly the same as Atmos ignores a DSU setting. Virtual X doesn't allow any physical overhead/height speakers. Your's is a very specific personal issue and not something most people are troubled by and it can be overcome with workarounds. Disney may have made a choice with their Atmos content, but so too have all the current Dts:X releases. Dts:X Pro may well address the current speaker 7.1.4 physical limits, but that does not change the content and since any hardware coming out now needs to meet Dolby's license agreement, won't likely do anything to help going forward.

Maybe we'll see a switch to true object based Dts:X content, perhaps Disney will start using objects or Dts:X or everyone will convert to Auro. Dolby may even reverse this, who knows.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm pretty sure that was part of the reason there's not a world of difference between the 51 and 52 so that we didn't have to get the update. I have seen people with the 5200 suggested that it does the same as the xx80 models. I would still like the interface improvement, but we may have seen the last of the big updates.

I don't think it is too onerous with the "Auto" mode but it does affect the up mixer. You don't get anything beyond 5.1 out. unclear if it applies equally to both DSU and Neural X though

Good to know that the CX-A5200 doesn't have the Dolby restriction yet. I guess the CX-A5300 will probably have the Dolby restriction.

When the CX-A5300 comes out, I will probably try to get a CX-A5200 on clearance just for backup.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

That does not work with Dts:X it turns off Neural X, exactly the same as Atmos ignores a DSU setting. Virtual X doesn't allow any physical overhead/height speakers. Your's is a very specific personal issue and not something most people are troubled by and it can be overcome with workarounds. Disney may have made a choice with their Atmos content, but so too have all the current Dts:X releases. Dts:X Pro may well address the current speaker 7.1.4 physical limits, but that does not change the content and since any hardware coming out now needs to meet Dolby's license agreement, won't likely do anything to help going forward.

Maybe we'll see a switch to true object based Dts:X content, perhaps Disney will start using objects or Dts:X or everyone will convert to Auro. Dolby may even reverse this, who knows.

If I follow you, I will agree here. I don’t care about more channels. I only have one row, and actually one seat that really matters. I want more objects not more channels and snap to. That’s what got me excited about atmos in the first place. The idea of speakers on planes other than horizontal isn’t really new, but the potential here is being squandered. I can see benefits of wides, especially in longer rooms, and also .6. But from what I’ve seen actual “wide” content hasn’t been used very much and DSU defeats anyway. I’ve had a very good channel based system for a long time. I want objects.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Who is this "Gene" person you guys are talking about?

Gene is the president and fearless leader of Audioholics.

He is the person some of us want to be when we grow up.

If gene buys RBH speakers, I buy RBH speakers.

If Gene buys a Denon AVP-A1HDCI, I buy a Denon AVP-A1HDCI.

If Gene buys a Yamaha CX-A5100 and MX-A5000, I buy a Yamaha CX-A5100 and MX-A5000.

 

[Bookmark]

Good to know that the CX-A5200 doesn't have the Dolby restriction yet

Actually I think I was indicating the reverse, it does have the restriction and it was in part why it was released so that the then current 5100 didn't have to get the change.

I only have one row, and actually one seat that really matters. I want more objects not more channels and snap to. That’s what got me excited about atmos in the first place.

Agreed, the concept of object based codecs is to ignore the actual number of physical speakers, how this is achieved and what company does the best job is one open for debate. However content is king here and if the providers have self imposed restrictions that's not great for anyone. 8K is planning on 22 speaker layouts.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Last night I started re-watching "The Huntsman Winter's War" in DTSX because "Snow White and the Huntsman" in DTSX was so awesome.

Man, I was disappointed again with DTSX.

The difference between the DTSX of Snow White vs Winter's War was night and day.

Once again, I could hardly hear much overhead effects with the DTSX in Winter's War.

Whereas Snow White's DTSX mix is reference quality, Winter's War DTSX mix is lame as hell. I actually tried DTS upmixed with NeuralX and got a lot more overhead effects than with DTSX.

I thought that since these 2 movies are the same franchise that they would also do the DTSX mixing the same way (like with all the Harry Potter DTSX movies).

But I was so wrong.

Apparently you never know what you get from movie to movie, even in the same franchise.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Actually I think I was indicating the reverse, it does have the restriction and it was in part why it was released so that the then current 5100 didn't have to get the change.

Oh, bummer. I won't be getting the CX-A5200 if it has the Dolby Upmix restriction. Will see what Gene finds out.

 

[Bookmark]

Oh, bummer.

More than happy to be wrong but I think a few owners have indicated it.

I thought that since these 2 movies are the same franchise that they would also do the DTSX mixing the same way (like with all the Harry Potter DTSX movies).

It is odd in the UK we only got Dts HD for Snow White and Dts:X for the Huntman and I definitely though the up mix on Snow worked better. You may also want to avoid the new Johnny Englsh in Dts:X, not much going on there. Up mix of Cloverfield Paradox was as some had already suggested pretty good.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It is odd in the UK we only got Dts HD for Snow White and Dts:X for the Huntman and I definitely though the up mix on Snow worked better. You may also want to avoid the new Johnny Englsh in Dts:X, not much going on there. Up mix of Cloverfield Paradox was as some had already suggested pretty good.

As we mentioned before, it seems like the movies that have a lot of good overhead effects in DTSX or Atmos usually also have pretty good overhead effects when upmixed with NeuralX.

So I bet Snow White NeuralX sounds a lot better than Winter's War DTSX.

Seriously, for demo, DTS should use that one scene in Snow White where the ravens fly around Ravenna in the castle and up the ceiling. IMO that is one amazing scene - you can really hear the ravens fly around you from each speaker and up the ceiling.