SVS Visit 7-22-05

[MacManNM]

A small mixture for both. But I clearly watch more movies than listen to music.
700.00 would be my absolute max..... And 600.00 would be a nicer range. For some reason, I did not really like the look of the HSU subs. Surely looks are not everything. But I do like the beefy look of the ISD/V

Going with the /V buys you some deeper extension while sacrificing some SPL level. How big is your room? It really depends on what type of bass you like.

 

[mulester7]

Mule, What mains are you running that make you feel you are missing all of this content?

.....Mac, any two-way, won't put out the low end of a three-way, is my thinking, but I don't want three-way, as per probable mud, and loss of imaging from NOT having only two elements speaking as one voice, which is the strength of the two-way, imo....so, I stay with two-way, and struggle on looking for needed lumber, haha.....

.....the small cannons ain't for helping the mains regiment, Mac, just to rule above the corner boxes.....

.....paralleling two like-mains on both sides of the front should help the lower end gap of the two-ways, I don't know, we'll see, they're being made in California as we type....if the paralleling doesn't help the lower end that much, EV 15's and boxes may entereth in, carrying their own can of black paint.....

.....Mac, you looked cool in those pictures....we don't have a clue what each other look like, do we?....hey, picture me being somewhere between Robert Redford, and your mostest handsome dark-brunette mud fence....go ahead, Mac.....

 

[brian32672]

How big is your room?

This is a good question???? Actually, the true plans for a house to be built are not completed at this time. And it may even be a basement HT. The houses I am looking at in Ga. and Tn. are 3 bedroom, and do have a basement. I am assuming about a room size of at least 18x12x8 this would be minimal. And if I buy a 4 bedroom, then if 2 of the rooms are adjacent, then the wall will be removed. To many plans at this point, I just know that my very near future (within 4-5 months) I will be settled in somewhere else. The condo I am in at the moment will be put up on the market in about 15 days. Then I will be in limbo until I decide on a place.......

But the 18x12x8 is really probably going to be about the minimum I'll settle for.

 

[mazurek]

Buckeye, what was your impression of SVS versus the Martin Logan Depth subs?

 

[Duffinator]

I received my PB12-ISD last Friday and have now had a chance to listen to it with several movies and some two and multi channel music. As you can see from the picture below it's quite a bit larger than my 12 year old Mirage PS 12-90 (12" and 90 watts RMS) and weights about 25 pounds more. Like Mac mentioned in his original post I'm impressed with the construction and attention to detail with the SVS. Little things like detachable power cord, rubber tips on the toggle switches, rubberized knobs, and the seemless look of the black textured covering all add to the quality look of the sub. Plus they threw in an SVS pen. Didn't I read somewhere they give you a t-shirt?

Other subs I considered are:
The comparable HSU STF-3, I liked the idea that the SVS has the bottom plate with the down firing woofer and I don't like the spike/legs of the HSU.
The SVS PB12-Plus, it's too big for my space.
The Axiom EP 500, out of reach for my budget but I bet this would sound great with music.
And a used RBH 1010-SE, again too big for my space, a little birdie told me this is a great sounding sub with music as well.

Keep in mind I'm comparing this sub to my 12 year old Mirage....Music is much tighter and punchier. My complaint with my Mirage is that it has a one note sound. The PB12-ISD is a nice improvement in that regard. I was expecting a huge improvement with the SVS when it comes to movies and I have not been disappointed. The Pod Race scene in SWEP I sounds great and the Helm's Deep battle scene in LOTR TT was really shaking the room. I don't have a large room and the PB12-ISD fills my room nicely and matches well with my modest system.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=26992#post26992

My main reason for this post is to comment on SVS's B stock. I only saved $50 from their normal price and I don't want to get into what's a good value when purchasing B stock items. For me it was a way so save a few bucks, enough said on that. But there are no visible signs that this sub is B stock. The warranty is the same as new so from my perspective it was as good as new. There are no markings on the box or sub that's it's B stock so it won't effect resale value. The SVS website has a B stock page and is updated sometimes several times a day. I started looking for a B stock PB12-ISD the first of July and if there weren't any posted by the end of July I would have purchased a new one. I was checking the site a few times a day and when mine showed up I purchased it immediately. There have been several PB10-ISD's posted lately in different colors. Anyway I hope that helps someone that was considering an SVS B stock sub. Maybe Buck or Mac have some secrets regarding SVS B stock they can share with other members?

 

[brian32672]

Really nice looking set-up Duff. I will post over at member systems. I have checked the B stock earlier today. But at the moment I am wondering if it is a huge difference in the ISD and the ISD/V. At the moment I am leaning towards the V. But also looking at Paradigm and M&K....

Granted I am happy with my JBL hitting 25hz (at least in specs), that no one seems to like. But for some real punch in the 18hz or lower I feel I need to get another sub. Possibly run a dual sub set-up, but probably not. (Would have to sell the JBL, to cover some cost). So I am in the search mode while I have a tad of money to get the one I am truly after.

Also while I am at the condo, I can't really give a audition to any sub.
Was thinking about trying the test run, and If I was not happy-Then it would just cost shipping. But while I am here, I could not give it the test it should handle.

 

[mfabien]

... But at the moment I am wondering if it is a huge difference in the ISD and the ISD/V. At the moment I am leaning towards the V. ...

If it is important to you to hear «lower than low» frequencies, than go for it and get the V. But then would this be to impress people other than yourself?

I must tell you that I simply love my PB-12 ISD (without the V) and discovered new low frequency notes I've never heard before in music. And then I have no need to play around with ports and constantly ask myself "should I close one port? Two ports?" for this next piece?". In fact my sub is calibrated with the rest of my system and I see no need to play with the Gain setting between music and HT.

It is surprising to hear how low frequencies can go just for a normal CD such as the extraordinary classic jazz renditions in the "Renee Oldstead" CD.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Buckeye, what was your impression of SVS versus the Martin Logan Depth subs?

Great question. Lets start off with the big guns first. The only SVS unit IMO that compared to the ML Descent sub (which has 3x10" woofers; a 400 watt switching amp at .07 thd at all levels-impressive) was the PB12 Ultra/2. They are pretty evenly matched in the deepest frequencies, although the Descent is quite a bit quicker for music. The Ultra 2 in black runs $2000. The Descent runs a bit higher, but there is one on ebay now for roughly the same price used.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5792089470&category=3275&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1

The Depth only goes down to 20Hz at +/- 3dB, and features 3-8" drivers. The street price ranges from $1300 - $1700 new. The SVS equivalent IMO would be the PB12 Ultra at $1200-$1300. I'm a big fan of the ML's for their WAF as well as smaller sizing. For HT, if you have the space, the better value are the SVS units. If you listen to a lot of music, and have a budget to afford these subs, I'd definitely demo the ML before ordering the Ultra and Ultra/2. All 4 are outstanding subs. You may have to pay a little more if space is an issue or music is your forte'.

 

[MacManNM]

I received my PB12-ISD last Friday and have now had a chance to listen to it with several movies and some two and multi channel music. As you can see from the picture below it's quite a bit larger than my 12 year old Mirage PS 12-90 (12" and 90 watts RMS) and weights about 25 pounds more. Like Mac mentioned in his original post I'm impressed with the construction and attention to detail with the SVS. Little things like detachable power cord, rubber tips on the toggle switches, rubberized knobs, and the seemless look of the black textured covering all add to the quality look of the sub. Plus they threw in an SVS pen. Didn't I read somewhere they give you a t-shirt?

Other subs I considered are:
The comparable HSU STF-3, I liked the idea that the SVS has the bottom plate with the down firing woofer and I don't like the spike/legs of the HSU.
The SVS PB12-Plus, it's too big for my space.
The Axiom EP 500, out of reach for my budget but I bet this would sound great with music.
And a used RBH 1010-SE, again too big for my space, a little birdie told me this is a great sounding sub with music as well.

Keep in mind I'm comparing this sub to my 12 year old Mirage....Music is much tighter and punchier. My complaint with my Mirage is that it has a one note sound. The PB12-ISD is a nice improvement in that regard. I was expecting a huge improvement with the SVS when it comes to movies and I have not been disappointed. The Pod Race scene in SWEP I sounds great and the Helm's Deep battle scene in LOTR TT was really shaking the room. I don't have a large room and the PB12-ISD fills my room nicely and matches well with my modest system.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=26992#post26992

My main reason for this post is to comment on SVS's B stock. I only saved $50 from their normal price and I don't want to get into what's a good value when purchasing B stock items. For me it was a way so save a few bucks, enough said on that. But there are no visible signs that this sub is B stock. The warranty is the same as new so from my perspective it was as good as new. There are no markings on the box or sub that's it's B stock so it won't effect resale value. The SVS website has a B stock page and is updated sometimes several times a day. I started looking for a B stock PB12-ISD the first of July and if there weren't any posted by the end of July I would have purchased a new one. I was checking the site a few times a day and when mine showed up I purchased it immediately. There have been several PB10-ISD's posted lately in different colors. Anyway I hope that helps someone that was considering an SVS B stock sub. Maybe Buck or Mac have some secrets regarding SVS B stock they can share with other members?

B-stock is pretty much new stuff. Like the ISD10's in the different colors, they aren't selling as much of the colors, so they put them on sale in the b-stock area. The others are new units that may have had a defective part (switch, or woofer problem) the bad unit is replaced with a new one and sold as b-stock. I would have no problems buying their b-stock products.

 

[MacManNM]

This is a good question???? Actually, the true plans for a house to be built are not completed at this time. And it may even be a basement HT. The houses I am looking at in Ga. and Tn. are 3 bedroom, and do have a basement. I am assuming about a room size of at least 18x12x8 this would be minimal. And if I buy a 4 bedroom, then if 2 of the rooms are adjacent, then the wall will be removed. To many plans at this point, I just know that my very near future (within 4-5 months) I will be settled in somewhere else. The condo I am in at the moment will be put up on the market in about 15 days. Then I will be in limbo until I decide on a place.......

But the 18x12x8 is really probably going to be about the minimum I'll settle for.

Yes it is a good question. I can tell you right now that the single 12" is not going to do it for you IMO. The single 12 in the plus or ultra might let you squeak by, but it will be close. Now, if it is going in a basement, then forget the single. unless you are going to get 2 of them. The PB12-ISD/2 would be the least I would buy. I really recomend the Plus. It is a vast improvement over the ISD. The ultra really wasn't that much of an improvement over the plus in any of the boxes.

 

[Duffinator]

Great question. Lets start off with the big guns first. The only SVS unit IMO that compared to the ML Descent sub (which has 3x10" woofers; a 400 watt switching amp at .07 thd at all levels-impressive) was the PB12 Ultra/2. They are pretty evenly matched in the deepest frequencies, although the Descent is quite a bit quicker for music. The Ultra 2 in black runs $2000. The Descent runs a bit higher, but there is one on ebay now for roughly the same price used.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5792089470&category=3275&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1

A friend of mine has the Descent and it is the best sounding sub I've ever heard for music, simply amazing. You can feel the bass notes from Wayman Tisdale's Jazz cd pound your chest.

But I've never heard the Ultra 2 before.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

A friend of mine has the Descent and it is the best sounding sub I've ever heard for music, simply amazing. You can feel the bass notes from Wayman Tisdale's Jazz cd pound your chest.

Absolutely, but for pure home theater and gut wrenching bass, you can't beat those SVS PB12 Ultra/2 subs. I'd love to put a couple of those TV12's in my truck. Too bad they wouldn't fit. Huuuge excursion. For $1999, that's a tough ticket to beat. If you priced out two similar woofers and a 1000 watt plate amp, you're talking $1500 minimum, and that's before the cabinet/assembly and warranty.

 

[Ron Stimpson]

Mac/Buck,

It was a pleasure to host you! I know Stephen would much rather show guys around like you than actually work ;^)

We're pretty proud of our "new" facility, all 8 acres and 20Kft2 of storage, office and assembly space. Still, it's a work in progress. Had you seen it 18mo. ago you would have called for a bulldozer, not a chance to see SVS products in a showroom. The work needed to get it to the "spritz" stage has been intensive but it seems to get the job done, including hosting enthusiasts like you.

The showroom though is that, a showroom... with sound. I should be beaten with a stripped 12 gauge wire if I didn't emphasize to you beforehand it is most definitely not a critical listening room. We don't even call it a "demo room" for that reason. All we set out to do was at this juncture in the facility refurbishment is to have a nice place where people could see the most popular models, judge their relative size, see finishes, some of the components that go into them etc. Of course we knew we had to have some sort of representative surround sound system (Meridian 7.1 processor, Onkyo amps for each channel, Samsung DLP etc) but frankly the acoustics of that space are far from ideal. You work with what you have (not long ago it was just filled with old office equipment). As noted, actually speaking face to face with customers is a new thing for us (yet we love the hell out of it).

Needless to say we do have a full bore optimized demo space planned for the future with room treatments, high end electronics, our own speakers, etc. but this is still a bit off in our 5 year plan while in this property (which we purchased rather than rent). With the tight budget while we roll out full range speakers, small subs and expand overseas (with our first dealers in Europe), well, it was a modest effort and we appreciate the incentive to keep improving the facility. We will, though the showroom is only about 2 months old, so give it time. The first coat of paint is barely dry ;^)

Given the limited space and acoustical work to date I would caution against drawing too many conclusions about critical comparisons to other products cast about the room. This goes doubly for comparisons to competitor gear that's not even in building ;^). As you know auditory memory is short and the effects of one's space (and one with the shortfalls of this showroom) can be quite significant. Same with location of the products in the room as you well know. With the PB10-ISD's in one corner and the PB12-Ultra/2 in another corner 30ft away, there's not a whole lot of audible comparison possible, much less to something like the ML's in a completely different space and time.

I'd recommend that sort of thing be best left to experts like yourselves to do in a true home theater with comparitive subs side by side that are calibrated and controlled for demo purposes. Neeeless to say we've never been shy about supporting efforts like that!

Hope it was a trip worth the effort. We're enthusiasts at heart as you know and will always bend over backwards to spend time talking shop with any of you.

Ron Stimpson
SVS

 

[silversurfer]

Yes it is a good question. I can tell you right now that the single 12" is not going to do it for you IMO. The single 12 in the plus or ultra might let you squeak by, but it will be close. Now, if it is going in a basement, then forget the single. unless you are going to get 2 of them. The PB12-ISD/2 would be the least I would buy. I really recomend the Plus. It is a vast improvement over the ISD. The ultra really wasn't that much of an improvement over the plus in any of the boxes.

I disagree. I have heard a few different 12" subs in rooms larger the 18x12x8 and I think you would be fine with any single 12" from SVS. If you want better sound quality...then go for the ultra.

 

[MacManNM]

I disagree. I have heard a few different 12" subs in rooms larger the 18x12x8 and I think you would be fine with any single 12" from SVS. If you want better sound quality...then go for the ultra.

It's just my opinion, but I don't believe a single would work, especially if it is in a basement. I personally would get 2 subs, or 1 dual.

 

[MacManNM]

Mac/Buck,

It was a pleasure to host you! I know Stephen would much rather show guys around like you than actually work ;^)

We're pretty proud of our "new" facility, all 8 acres and 20Kft2 of storage, office and assembly space. Still, it's a work in progress. Had you seen it 18mo. ago you would have called for a bulldozer, not a chance to see SVS products in a showroom. The work needed to get it to the "spritz" stage has been intensive but it seems to get the job done, including hosting enthusiasts like you.

The showroom though is that, a showroom... with sound. I should be beaten with a stripped 12 gauge wire if I didn't emphasize to you beforehand it is most definitely not a critical listening room. We don't even call it a "demo room" for that reason. All we set out to do was at this juncture in the facility refurbishment is to have a nice place where people could see the most popular models, judge their relative size, see finishes, some of the components that go into them etc. Of course we knew we had to have some sort of representative surround sound system (Meridian 7.1 processor, Onkyo amps for each channel, Samsung DLP etc) but frankly the acoustics of that space are far from ideal. You work with what you have (not long ago it was just filled with old office equipment). As noted, actually speaking face to face with customers is a new thing for us (yet we love the hell out of it).

Needless to say we do have a full bore optimized demo space planned for the future with room treatments, high end electronics, our own speakers, etc. but this is still a bit off in our 5 year plan while in this property (which we purchased rather than rent). With the tight budget while we roll out full range speakers, small subs and expand overseas (with our first dealers in Europe), well, it was a modest effort and we appreciate the incentive to keep improving the facility. We will, though the showroom is only about 2 months old, so give it time. The first coat of paint is barely dry ;^)

Given the limited space and acoustical work to date I would caution against drawing too many conclusions about critical comparisons to other products cast about the room. This goes doubly for comparisons to competitor gear that's not even in building ;^). As you know auditory memory is short and the effects of one's space (and one with the shortfalls of this showroom) can be quite significant. Same with location of the products in the room as you well know. With the PB10-ISD's in one corner and the PB12-Ultra/2 in another corner 30ft away, there's not a whole lot of audible comparison possible, much less to something like the ML's in a completely different space and time.

I'd recommend that sort of thing be best left to experts like yourselves to do in a true home theater with comparitive subs side by side that are calibrated and controlled for demo purposes. Neeeless to say we've never been shy about supporting efforts like that!

Hope it was a trip worth the effort. We're enthusiasts at heart as you know and will always bend over backwards to spend time talking shop with any of you.

Ron Stimpson
SVS

Again Ron,
We thank you for your hospitality. We both do realize that it wasn’t a critical listening room. I’m sure that sloped concrete floor didn’t help, and getting rid of those rattling doors would! I had a blast. I am still very impressed with the fit-and-finish of all of your products. The cabinet craftsmanship was outstanding. The drivers you guys are using are an engineering feat in their own right. I’m not a big digital amp fan, but I really couldn’t tell that they weren’t AB amps. So keep up the good work. BTW, Where did those Sansui’s come from????

 

[silversurfer]

It's just my opinion, but I don't believe a single would work, especially if it is in a basement. I personally would get 2 subs, or 1 dual.

It really isn't that big of a room...basement or not. A basement is not going to shake. Reaching the proper SPL is the issue. If he wants more than that, then I agree....get another sub, but try one first. We tend to overspend in this hobby before even trying.

You guys should have taken one of those SVS subs home to compare to what you have now.

 

[mfabien]

It really isn't that big of a room...basement or not. A basement is not going to shake. Reaching the proper SPL is the issue. If he wants more than that, then I agree....get another sub, but try one first. We tend to overspend in this hobby before even trying.

You guys should have taken one of those SVS subs home to compare to what you have now.

I have a PB-12 ISD and it's in a 580 sq. ft. room in the basement. The floor is carpeted, the walls are covered with pine planks and the ceiling has 2' x 4' suspended acoustic tiles.

My system is calibrated using a SPL analog meter and the Avia DVD. The sub's Gain setting is barely touching the half volume position. A little more can cause shaking the windows but that is not what I'm looking for. I listen to music much more than movies and it is simply a delight. However, movies such as U571, Flight of the Phoenix, Jarassic Park II provide true Cinema House sound treatment, if I trust my visiting family members.

Therefore, my single driver SVS PB-12 ISD is more than adequate. It was recommended by Erik at SVS over the PB-10 ISD because of the room size (he was satisfied to recommend the single driver model to do the job).

Now, our visiting experts to SVS may have reached a degree of exposure to excellence which brings about a certain bias. I have not heard a dual driver sub and therefore cannot but believe what we are told here. But believe this, I am more than satisfied with my single driver sub and I'm sure it would please the vast majority of readers here presently using less than a 12' driver powered by a 320 watt amp. and housed in a 78 lbs box.

 

[brian32672]

Thanks mfabien and all the replies.

As stated in other posts, I am actually happy with my JBL. And the room I am using it in now is actually a tad larger than the min. I had posted that the new room would be. So I have to honestly beleive for my use the ISD/V would do the job I intend for it.

Worst case scenario, I loose shipping cost. But for the beefy look, I guess I am stuck on SVS.

 

[mfabien]

Go for it Brian.