SVS Visit 7-22-05

[MacManNM]

Even the little Subaru WRX STI with 300 bhp will do 0-100 mph in 4.8 seconds (vs 7.7 seconds for the Corvette).

I think you had better check your facts there dude! The SUB will do 0-100 Km/h in 4.8

 

[Privateer]

Even the little Subaru WRX STI with 300 bhp will do 0-100 mph in 4.8 seconds (vs 7.7 seconds for the Corvette).

You are way off there buddy. The STI does 0-100 KPH in 4.8 not MPH.

 

[mfabien]

You are way off there buddy. The STI does 0-100 KPH in 4.8 not MPH.

RIGHT! We live in Km/hour here in Canada. Sorry gang.

 

[mulester7]

.....sorry to be posting too much, but, please, may I say one more time and then digress.....

.....if I didn't have these two B12's I have, I would not hesitate to order two SVS PB 10's, one for each corner of the front, tuned to make it seem it was the mains going to the floor, and be done with it, under a grand to my door....they are larger, HEAVY boxes, and for sure, go low, with a built-in cut at 18....and, they are cannon-shaped....the box is deeper than wide or tall, and the element, with HARD paper-cone, haha, was developed by SVS in conjunction with a company that was to supply....they coulda' had a metal cone for about a nickel more?, I don't know, but I can only report on SVS products I have owned....and I can report, two subs over one sound like 3......

....with the original 16-46 Plus unpowered cylinders, the first thing I listened to was Toby Keith singing, sorta', haha, hey, his overall SELLS, where was I?, oh yeah, he was singing that one about "I Just Wanna' Be Me".....good grief, I finally heard what a 12 inch element sub can do over a big woofer in a wood box....Pearl Harbor has never sounded "quite" as good with the B12's, but I'm 75% music....but, with the 16-46 Plus's, I was AMAZED at how good they sounded with clean oscillation on music also, but their presence might be a little heavy for music, I thought....along came an email from Tom, and I started calling relatives for loans, haha....Tom and I have emailed a bunch, and he's special....I emailed that ole' flutey Ron Stimpson to ask him if he wanted some more dead chicken sweet-sauce, and never heard from him....he'll get the smallest piece of cake at my birthday party, Clint, see to it, haha......

.....I 'bout got the low-end covered right, Gentlemen, but if I didn't have these B4's, I would have a PB 10 in each corner, on the floor, and maybe two of these inexpensive small cannons in the middle, off the floor at least a foot, cut at 50 down....one on each side, just inside, of a main.....

.....I will bring up the volume of the small cannons until they sound GREAT against the mains regiment....then I will bring up the corners easy and supporting, for the realism concussion and about 10-15 hz of pitch.....a combination of SVS and Cadence could be the answer for great seperates in the sub range.....

.....tastefully add the subs, you ain't in your car now, and that is still tough for me, but I'm getting there....Buck and Mac, you reported what you saw and heard wonderfully with great pictures.....now it's a Corvette thread, haha.....I'm done, and SVS has done nothing but pill the thriss out of me, Gentlemen......

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Buck and Mac, you reported what you saw and heard wonderfully with great pictures.....now it's a Corvette thread, haha. I'm done, and SVS has done nothing but pill the thriss out of me, Gentlemen.

You are right. Back to SVS. I think we need to compare units a little more in depth for the members while these are still fresh in our heads. Here's two more wonderful pictures of Mac and Stephen. I think I caught them off guard in the first one. Stephen - thanks again for the T-Shirts.

 

[MacManNM]

Thanks Eugene, I appreciate that flattering shot.

 

[Duffinator]

You are right. Back to SVS. I think we need to compare units a little more in depth for the members while these are still fresh in our heads.

Great idea. How about starting with the PB12-ISD, ISD/V, Plus, and Ultra and what you get with each step up the dollar ladder in value?

 

[Duffinator]

B-stock is pretty much new stuff. Like the ISD10's in the different colors, they aren't selling as much of the colors, so they put them on sale in the b-stock area. The others are new units that may have had a defective part (switch, or woofer problem) the bad unit is replaced with a new one and sold as b-stock. I would have no problems buying their b-stock products.

I noticed on their B-Stock web page that they are not stating if the unit is new and that it's reduced for inventory reduction. Good job Mac!

 

[zilla]

OK, now that was funny. LOL. I agree. I like the punch, but punch at 35Hz won't do for U571. You need both. If you were to build your own sub, which would you use - the JL W7, MTX Thunder 9500, or Pioneer 5000? And which pro amp, a crown or Mackie? (Told you I was a bass head)

The W7 easily of that bunch... I'd have to throw in Image Dynamics IDMAX in that bunch as well. It's an awesome sub.

 

[MacManNM]

Great idea. How about starting with the PB12-ISD, ISD/V, Plus, and Ultra and what you get with each step up the dollar ladder in value?

Here is my opinion:
A sub is there to augment your loudspeakers, not to take their place. A good loudspeaker should go down to 35 Hz, and play well. 35 Hz is the lowest freq you are going to hear at a rock concert, for instance (or any other concert, save the pipe organ at church). If you turn your sub off, and play your speakers in stereo mode, with the full range going to them, they should knock you socks off, if they don't, you have bigger problems. Loudspeakers have migrated (much thanks to Bose) to a shadow of what they once were. The WAF has a ton to do with it, and I understand that, but; your mains should provide that chest pounding, killer mid bass you experience at a live performance. To me 35-100 Hz is mid bass. My mains have 1-12”woofer, 1- 8” mid bass, 1- 1.5” midrange and a 1” tweeter. Heck, I have more 12” drivers in my mains than most subs. When I play them with no sub, I can feel the kick drum, I can feel the bass guitar. Now all of a sudden everyone wants one 12” in this “special box” to compensate for the lack of sound in their main speakers. It’s crap. I don’t care what anyone says, 50 Hz has direction, and you can hear it; therefore imaging comes into play.

Now IMO, a single sub is there to create those frequencies below 35 Hz. If you want anything higher than that then you need two of them, connected in front where they have the ability to image. So, to me, a sub is there to play the deepest bass, no more, no less.

With all that in mind, here is my assessment of the SVS subs we listened to at SVS Headquarters:

These are AWESOME home theater subs. They all go deep and play loud. I built my HT sub, and my design is of the same philosophy as theirs. There are nuances between the models, but the big factor is based on your room size. I was really impressed with the cylinder subs. I know, low WAF, but that’s physics. My ears, in that listening room, couldn’t detect a difference between the ULTRA and PLUS models (same cabinets only) period. I could tell a difference between the ISD and the PLUS though. The PLUS had more dynamic range, sounded more robust, and “FULLER” IMO. The ULTRA didn’t buy you anything in the environment, in which we listened. All of these are good units, they do what they are designed to do, and do it well.


I wish we had more time there. I would have loved to play around with the port plugs, the bass extension, and the levels in a good listening environment.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Great idea. How about starting with the PB12-ISD, ISD/V, Plus, and Ultra and what you get with each step up the dollar ladder in value?

That's a loaded question.

Mac and I will answer using our own unbiased opinions. Lets see how we differ.

I would break them down based on budget, room size, and the ability of your existing system to keep up with the different subwoofers' output.

You always want to most for your money, but you don't want to over do it. You don't need a PB12-Ultra 2 in a 10x12 room. You also don't want to blend a PB12-ISD in a 25x35 room with 18' ceilings, mated up with a $20,000 surround system.

The PB10-ISD utilizes a 300 watt class D amp. The 12-ISD and 12-ISD/V upgrade to a 325 watt class D amp. These are very capable little amps. If you've ever taken apart a sub, you'd notice there's not much to these class D amps. They run cool, and weigh almost nothing (less than 3lbs). It's a marvel how they create the power to move these drivers the way they do. A similar class A/B amp would weigh around 10-15lbs. None of the SVS subs use A/B amps. Once you get up into the flagship units, you can pair them up with a Crown K1 amp. These amps run 10X cooler than similar class A/B amps.

The PB12-ISD and V versions use the same driver and amp, but change the box size in the V version. You get a 18x21x20 in the ISD, and 18x25x25 in the V version. You get deeper bass in the V, but lose a bit of control in the speed and response. That may be the deciding factor between someone who prefers music to movies. The smaller box may work better. Now for the movie buff who requires that deep U571 depthcharge bass, and has a separete room for his music, the V would be the better choice. This room may be a dedicated basement theater, say 14x18, with a nice 60" or front projection tv. The V would not work as well in a "family friendly" 12x14 living room which is already overtaken by the surround setup. In a room that size, the standard PB10 or 12 would be preferred. We'll cover the Plus and Ultra offerings, as well as the cylinders after covering these three units.

 

[Duffinator]

Buck, I'm with you 100%, besides any real budget constraints you need to match the sub with your environment and the rest of your equipment. The PB12/2-Ultra would just be overkill for me. Not that I mind overkill of course.

Mac, like a lot of members here, besides having to deal with budget issues I just don't have the room for a pair of Paradigm Studio 100's that will provide that tight fast bass that I'm familiar with from the literally hundreds of rock concerts I've been to. So I have two way speakers and use my receiver to cross over the signals at 80Hz to my sub.

With that in mind please continue.

And you guys are doing a great job with this, have you given Gene and Clint your resumes yet?

 

[9f9c7z]

...When we spoke to Stephen (SVS's driver engineer) he agreed with us that music does not go below 25Hz.

I think it depends on what you listen to. Most traditional instruments don’t go down there. I guess piano and oboe can, and some esoteric regional instruments. From what I have read rap is definately down in there, tho you can argue that rap really isn't music...except I won't argue that it is.

 

[SCompRacer]

Thanks MacManNM and Buckeyefan 1 for sharing your SVS tour experience in words and pictures.

After under buying a sub for my 14' x 22' x 8' lower level, Ron of SVS was very helpful in recommending a sub for my application. He suggested a PB12-Plus, I wondered if it would be enough. He was right. When we watch movies, my 82 year old mother in law comments "This is better than the movie theatre." I have a dedicated 2 channel rig with speakers that reach low for serious listening, but I find the PB12-Plus is good with music too.

Oh, and how come Buckeyefan doesn't appear in any pics?

 

[mfabien]

Thanks Buckeyefan for your latest post on the PB-12. I do have a room larger than it is supposed to be for a PB-12 ISD but, perhaps due to the rooms quality for accoustic, my sub performs very well. And, BTW, I did playback U571 and the depth charges did make the windows vibrate at half Gain on the sub. However, I do understand and conquer with your general recommendations.

As recommended by SVS and by Audioholics in FAQ's, I have configured all my speakers to SMALL and therefore let my receiver's fixed crossover of 90 Hz takeover (could be better at 80 Hz, but I don't have a choice). And for the life of me I can't recall one instance where low frequencies in music or LFE came from the direction of the sub.

Good thing the latest post by MacManNM did not take place before I purchased my SVS sub because I would have been reluctant to buy a sub before updating my Front speakers with monster towers incorporating a series of 12" woffers, etc. Perhaps I am blessed not to have perfect hearing or developed a degree of sophisticated musical ears to the point where perfect audio systems will barely be able to replace the physical presence of the artists.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

SComp, that sub really blends in nicely with the room. I can't believe your 82yr old mother n law likes bass. That's awesome.

Oh, and how come Buckeyefan doesn't appear in any pics?

Mac took plenty of pix with his camera - all the pix you see are mine. I think he's behind the times on getting them to load on his computer and transfer them to this thread. By my calculations, it should be sometime in November before we see his pix.

My pic was my avatar for awhile. Remember - playing the cow bell?

 

[9f9c7z]

Buckeye - I have seen that avatar used on a couple of boating forums, iboats and the Hull Truth. Are you on those forums, too?

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Buckeye - I have seen that avatar used on a couple of boating forums, iboats and the Hull Truth. Are you on those forums, too?

I wish. I don't own a boat. Have a nice Yamaha 1700cc Warrior in the garage, though. I'm on an OSU forum, and "borrow" some of the cooler stuff they have. I'm always right click/copying funny stuff.

 

[Duffinator]

I wish. I don't own a boat. Have a nice Yamaha 1700cc Warrior in the garage, though. I'm on an OSU forum, and "borrow" some of the cooler stuff they have. I'm always right click/copying funny stuff.

Nice ride Buck. How's the bass out of that 1700 exhaust?

Now back to subs. I have never seen U571 so I just added it to the top of my Netflix queue to test out my new PB12-ISD. Sounds like I should watch it before the kids go to sleep so I don't wake them???

 

[brian32672]

Nice ride Buck. How's the bass out of that 1700 exhaust?

Now back to subs. I have never seen U571 so I just added it to the top of my Netflix queue to test out my new PB12-ISD. Sounds like I should watch it before the kids go to sleep so I don't wake them???

The movie IMO was just ok. My mother loves it because of Bon Jovi (yeah that gay guy)