SVS Visit 7-22-05

[mulester7]

.....I would very much like to hear opinions about the cylinder subs that were heard in Ohio....but who am I?.....signed, the janitor.....

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

.....I would very much like to hear opinions about the cylinder subs that were heard in Ohio....but who am I?.....signed, the janitor.....

Mule, great avatar. Did Brian help you out with that?
Lets move on to the cylinder subs. All three were placed in the corner, and all three were dialed in. There was a closet door which about fell apart when we demo'd the cylinders. These cylinders IMHO were better musically than the box type subs. Mac has a photo of the subs, and hopefully he'll submit it today. I wasn't thrilled with the carpeted exteriors. But the design was impressive. They really had a small footprint for the large volume provided.

Does anyone here have a cylinder? If so, which model?

 

[jaxvon]

I know Mkossler has a Cylinder...and he loves it. Although he was a little shocked about the size at first...

 

[MacManNM]

Cylinder subs

Here is a pic of Eugene with the cylinder subs.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Here is a pic of Eugene with the cylinder subs.

What a great photo. Next time, smile. Thanks, Mac.

The three cylinder subs in the demo room were 16-46 pci, 20-39 plus, and the 25-31 pci. There was really no comparison after listening to the plus model. The 200 watt step up in power really made a huge difference. Those cylinder subs went so low, they just rattled your brain. It's a different type of bass. With that configuration, I'd get as much amp and driver as you can afford. I just wish they had a CS Ultra in the room.

Check out the B stock. There's some nice deals on the piano black PB12's
http://svsubwoofers.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=SSL&Category_Code=B-stock

 

[korgoth]

ok i only read about half of these posts because there were a lot of them,

but i still had a question.. you said the improvements from the plus and ultra werent as noticeable, so would it be better off getting the plus/2 rather than the ultra?

they are both the same price. and also, how would either one compare with the ep500?

all 3 are $1200

 

[MacManNM]

ok i only read about half of these posts because there were a lot of them,

but i still had a question.. you said the improvements from the plus and ultra werent as noticeable, so would it be better off getting the plus/2 rather than the ultra?

they are both the same price. and also, how would either one compare with the ep500?

all 3 are $1200

I'd say that the plus/2 is a better deal, I think it's going to sound better all around.

I don't know anything about the axiom unit, but just by looking at it, it looks to be pretty good. The fact is, the drivers in the plus are superior to the axiom. If you have the room, go with the plus/2. Something else you may want to look at is the Paradigm SERVO 15 sub. From an engineering standpoint this is an outstanding unit.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

ok i only read about half of these posts because there were a lot of them,

but i still had a question.. you said the improvements from the plus and ultra werent as noticeable, so would it be better off getting the plus/2 rather than the ultra?

they are both the same price. and also, how would either one compare with the ep500?

all 3 are $1200

For HT, get the Plus/2 over the Ultra. For music, get the Ultra or Paradigm Servo that Mac mentioned. You can't beat a sealed enclosure for music. It just won't come near the SVS for HT.

 

[mkossler]

Just a quick how-do-you-do on the cylinders, I know I missed their brief surfacing on the previous page ...

I do have to admit that I had a quick "Holy cannoli!!!" moment when the 20-39 arrived in its coffin-sized packaging, but it has since been nicely tucked away into a front corner. You can hardly notice it's there.

No, really.

Okay, fine.

The thing is gargantuan - in terms of size, impact, and performance. A friend has the plus/2 box, and frankly in my size room (15x13 now, 22x12 in the basement HT) I don't see needing it. My plan for the HT basement project was to bolster things with a tactile transducer, namely a buttkicker. In the words of Peter Seller's Inspector Clouseau (Steinway Piano scene),

"Not any more."

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

MK, question on the "big tube"

Just a quick how-do-you-do on the cylinders, I know I missed their brief surfacing on the previous page ...

I do have to admit that I had a quick "Holy cannoli!!!" moment when the 20-39 arrived in its coffin-sized packaging, but it has since been nicely tucked away into a front corner. You can hardly notice it's there.

No, really.

Okay, fine.

The thing is gargantuan - in terms of size, impact, and performance. A friend has the plus/2 box, and frankly in my size room (15x13 now, 22x12 in the basement HT) I don't see needing it. My plan for the HT basement project was to bolster things with a tactile transducer, namely a buttkicker. In the words of Peter Seller's Inspector Clouseau (Steinway Piano scene),

"Not any more."

MK,

IMO, the sound coming from the cylinders is totally different from the boxed subs. You've heard box subs before. You own the cylinder. In your own words, would you explain the difference. You listen to it on a regular basis. I've only had the chance to do a/b comparisons in a three hour window.

What I'd like to know is how you "fancy" the sub for music. And, in particular, different types of music. Does it accentuate softer music, or really add depth for rock, jazz, and hip hop (assuming you've listened to a variety of music). Do you have trouble blending it in with your mains, or does it roll off nicely with the mid bass from the fronts?

Next, what do you think about the cylinder for HT. Does it add the "umph" all the time, or only for those "depth charges" and "explosions." Do you have the sub dialed in at the highest frequency, or down low for that earth rattling bass.

I really didn't have time to experiment with all the settings on all the subs (that's my forte' - I love tweaking sound to perfection). I tried mostly with music, but once the dvd's were playing, we were in "too much awe" to pay much attention in dialing in the gain and Hz response.

Appreciate the responses!

 

[mkossler]

Oh, man! Usually, I get assigned actions only when I skip meetings at work

Buck, I have put some quality time in on the system, and I will put something together and post it here, Real Soon Nowtm.

I swear.

Hey, this time I mean it!

 

[Josuah]

I own a Velodyne SPL-1200 II and a pair of SVS 16-46PC+ tuned at 12Hz. I upgraded my movie/music setup from the Velodyne to the PC+ subs. The Velodyne is now being used in my video game setup.

I have found the PC+ subs are very clean (no harmonic distortion) for both movies and music. In the audible range, they are just as smoothly blended in as my Velodyne was. Below 20Hz, the PC+s are capable of shaking the house without me hearing anything. They are much more satisfying because of their low extension for both movies and music. Taiko drums are a good example of music that requires that low extension.

It does help that I have a very large room with less room gain, due both to placement and size (>5000 ft^2). In my bedroom corner, the Velodyne will sound boomy due to the somewhat corner placement and smaller dimensions. I'm sure the effect would be the same with the PC+ subs.

I am sure things would sound even better with a parametric equalizer in the chain. Something I am looking into. When I graphed the Velodyne in the movies/music setup before, there were fluctuations on the order of 10dB. Of course, I still cannot achieve that clean, hard, punch that I've had in my gut when going to see real fireworks or a real taiko performance. Why can't they mix movies and music at those levels? When a tank rolls by and I see the ground shaking on screen, why isn't my floor shaking too? Huh?

I do think a more audible difference in sound would be heard if you were pushing the subs closer to their amp limit. But that's why I bought a pair of PC+s. So I wouldn't have that problem.

 

[Tomorrow]

For HT, get the Plus/2 over the Ultra. For music, get the Ultra or Paradigm Servo that Mac mentioned. You can't beat a sealed enclosure for music. It just won't come near the SVS for HT.

Gents,

You have been talking about some gargantuan cuts o' beef here. I don't believe they make residential house rooms large enough to sate the space requirements of all the power in a Plus/2! Where DO you all put these things and listen to them? Mulester14, TWO Plus/4's??????

Now, I understand that with all that available power you're giving yourselves some mighty low distortion quotients at normal listening levels. (Normal listening levels....hmmmm....HMMMM!! CAN YOU ALL HEAR ME OUT THERE??!!)

Seriously, my Hsu STF-1 hurts if I crank it up in my 22x27xvaulted ceiling room. (Okay, it is supplimented by a couple of 12" passives. But....) And I'm still on search and destroy missions all around the house for vibrating things when we play Riddick at stupifying levels (stupifying..~almost reference levels).

So what gives with these humongous units, other than you all wanting to have 'one' that's bigger than his? No joke intended...serious inquiry.

 

[Duffinator]

So what gives with these humongous units, other than you all wanting to have 'one' that's bigger than his? No joke intended...serious inquiry.

I've only had my PB12-ISD for less than two weeks and I'm already wondering what I could be missing with more sub. For home theater it's a huge improvement from what I've had but after hearing the missing link I now want more. But I don't have the room for a larger sub so next up would be an Axiom EP500 at twice the price. You should have seen the look on my wife's face when I told her that last night. I wonder if you could replace the ISD driver with a Plus and if that would make much of a difference, especially with music? Or do you need more power to drive it?

 

[Tomorrow]

I've only had my PB12-ISD for less than two weeks and I'm already wondering what I could be missing with more sub.


I don't know what you had before, Duffinator, but the PB12 has plenty of SPL and gets down to the basement of your hearing abilities, PLUS some floor rattling additional headroom. What do you think you might gain besides a "TOO LOUD" from the missus?

I read these posts, really trying to assimilate and learn, and I keep wondering, "these guys have these huge, highly powered subwoofers that sink well below 20hz. and even at 'reference' levels have the amps only cranked to 10 o'clock, max". So, I keep wondering why so big and why so much power (beyond the afore mentioned distortion quotient)...and tried this post. I'm sure open to more education.

 

[MacManNM]

I've only had my PB12-ISD for less than two weeks and I'm already wondering what I could be missing with more sub. For home theater it's a huge improvement from what I've had but after hearing the missing link I now want more. But I don't have the room for a larger sub so next up would be an Axiom EP500 at twice the price. You should have seen the look on my wife's face when I told her that last night. I wonder if you could replace the ISD driver with a Plus and if that would make much of a difference, especially with music? Or do you need more power to drive it?

What do you think you're missing? The plus driver isn't going to do anything but go deeper. It has much more mass. For a good musical sub, you don't need anything to go below 30Hz. The SVS is inherently designed to go low. If you want that musical type of sub, a sacrifice needs to be made. I believe you will have a hard time finding a ported unit that does both music and HT equally well. HT needs that low subsonic bass, when you build a sub to produce those frequencies, you sacrifice that 35 and up punch you need for music. The only real solution is to augment the low end (with the SVS) and put something in the middle that will satisfy your need for that “music bass”.

 

[Duffinator]

What do you think you're missing? The plus driver isn't going to do anything but go deeper. It has much more mass. For a good musical sub, you don't need anything to go below 30Hz. The SVS is inherently designed to go low. If you want that musical type of sub, a sacrifice needs to be made. I believe you will have a hard time finding a ported unit that does both music and HT equally well. HT needs that low subsonic bass, when you build a sub to produce those frequencies, you sacrifice that 35 and up punch you need for music. The only real solution is to augment the low end (with the SVS) and put something in the middle that will satisfy your need for that “music bass”.

My previous sub was a Mirage 12" 90 watts RMS that was 13 years old. What I mean by "what I'm missing" is that chest thumping bass with music that Mac has talked about and I've experienced with a friends system using a Martin Logan Descent sub (way out of my budget). There is such a big difference between what I had and what I have now, and I'm enjoying it a lot, that I wonder what different subs will do for my room.

Keeping in mind that I don't have room for a larger sub, when I talked about changing out the drivers I was more talking to myself as I wondered why SVS didn't do a couple of options in the smaller box (and it's not a small box) like they offer in the larger ones? I'd bet the Plus driver would fit in the smaller box but the Ultra wouldn't. I'm sure Mac is right about the main speakers and the new speakers I have my eye on, Monitor Audio RS8's, will deliver a lot more bass than my current Mirage speakers. Either way I'm going to have to wait so in the meantime I'll just enjoy what I have now.

 

[MacManNM]

My previous sub was a Mirage 12" 90 watts RMS that was 13 years old. What I mean by "what I'm missing" is that chest thumping bass with music that Mac has talked about and I've experienced with a friends system using a Martin Logan Descent sub (way out of my budget). There is such a big difference between what I had and what I have now, and I'm enjoying it a lot, that I wonder what different subs will do for my room.

Keeping in mind that I don't have room for a larger sub, when I talked about changing out the drivers I was more talking to myself as I wondered why SVS didn't do a couple of options in the smaller box (and it's not a small box) like they offer in the larger ones? I'd bet the Plus driver would fit in the smaller box but the Ultra wouldn't. I'm sure Mac is right about the main speakers and the new speakers I have my eye on, Monitor Audio RS8's, will deliver a lot more bass than my current Mirage speakers. Either way I'm going to have to wait so in the meantime I'll just enjoy what I have now.

Duff,
It's so easy man. All you have to do is buy some decent 12" drivers, build an overdamped box, buy an electronic crossover, and get a decent amp, then you got it all!!!! Wait till you guys see what I'm brewing up in the lab! I'm designing a system that has a high a WAF, really good for HT, and awesome for music.

 

[MarkOcena]

Where does Paradigm fit in?

I'm curious as to how you guys see these SVS subs comparing to Paradigm 10" or 12" models, particularly the PW-2100 and PW-2200 respectively. They are usually priced closer to the aforementioned Axiom sub.

Thanks,
Mark

 

[Josuah]

If you want your bass to be chest thumping, when the source isn't, then just turn the amp gain knob way up. Won't be accurate or true to the source mix though.

As for a "musical" sub going to only 30Hz, depends what your music is. Pipe organs go much lower. I believe the lowest note on a piano is 28Hz. A number of my music CDs contain infrasonic data, such as taiko drumming or some of my electronic albums.