mtrycrafts
Seriously, I have no life.
stratman said:
You have an advantage over me on that
Not sure what it stands for All this internet lingo is over my head
"Let our rigorous testing and reviews be your guidelines to A/V equipment – not marketing slogans"
You have an advantage over me on that
Not sure what it stands for All this internet lingo is over my head
stratman
Audioholic Ninja
You don't know what lard is????? pig fat!.....Dip Rosie in it the squeeeeeze her into the black box (who knows what magical listening experience will happen)
G
GreenJelly
Banned
http://dictionary.reference.com/
lard Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[lahrd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the rendered fat of hogs, esp. the internal fat of the abdomen.
–verb (used with object) 2. to apply lard or grease to.
3. to prepare or enrich (lean meat, chicken, etc.) with pork or fat, esp. with lardons.
4. to supplement or enrich with something for improvement or ornamentation: a literary work larded with mythological allusions.
lard Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[lahrd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the rendered fat of hogs, esp. the internal fat of the abdomen.
–verb (used with object) 2. to apply lard or grease to.
3. to prepare or enrich (lean meat, chicken, etc.) with pork or fat, esp. with lardons.
4. to supplement or enrich with something for improvement or ornamentation: a literary work larded with mythological allusions.
stratman
Audioholic Ninja
Thanks Greenjelly,
Now we know what to do with Rosie!
Now we know what to do with Rosie!
mtrycrafts
Seriously, I have no life.
stratman said:Thanks Greenjelly,
Now we know what to do with Rosie!
I feel better now.
Thanks guys.
A
Ampdog
Audioholic
Well now gentlemen (and ladies - are there any ladies on this forum? Why not?)
I have a side-bet with a local friend who was stupid enough to take me on. There is a very obvious cable shortcoming that nobody seems to have discovered yet - waiting for the first super-enlightened company to cash in upon:
All those zillions of electrons traveling at near light speed down cables - and then we insist on using a.c. so they must reverse every now and then and go right back. That just must wear that oxygen free cable out! You need to replace the worn cable every so often! (Stands to reason) I mean, if bushes in machinery wear out, and that at a very much lower velocity .....
Anyone heard of the oil-filled interconnects of a few years back? (They did not say how often one had to drain and replace the oil.)
Funny world this.
I have a side-bet with a local friend who was stupid enough to take me on. There is a very obvious cable shortcoming that nobody seems to have discovered yet - waiting for the first super-enlightened company to cash in upon:
All those zillions of electrons traveling at near light speed down cables - and then we insist on using a.c. so they must reverse every now and then and go right back. That just must wear that oxygen free cable out! You need to replace the worn cable every so often! (Stands to reason) I mean, if bushes in machinery wear out, and that at a very much lower velocity .....
Anyone heard of the oil-filled interconnects of a few years back? (They did not say how often one had to drain and replace the oil.)
Funny world this.
stratman
Audioholic Ninja
Yup, I did hear of liquid filled interconnects back in the early 90s, ultra expensive, Stereovile mag wrote an article, I think. The 90s a little hazy.
D
Duettadude
Enthusiast
(sticks neck out) I can hear differences on my system, so.... am I crazy?
G
GreenJelly
Banned
Speaker signals are DC not AC signals...
Woops
and from all real evidence the difference you feel is the placebo effect. Go to the doctor and before you walk in the door you feel better...
hmmm
Mike
from the evidence suggested, even my dog wouldnt be able to tell the difference. The signal is the same at the end of the cable, and can be measured/recorded with standard equipment.
But if you feel good about the system and the cable, then who am I to tell you otherwise... I like my coffee black, and I generally dont care if its picked from tree A) or tree B) as long as it costs the same and tastes the same... other people might like tree B)...
Woops
and from all real evidence the difference you feel is the placebo effect. Go to the doctor and before you walk in the door you feel better...
hmmm
Mike
from the evidence suggested, even my dog wouldnt be able to tell the difference. The signal is the same at the end of the cable, and can be measured/recorded with standard equipment.
But if you feel good about the system and the cable, then who am I to tell you otherwise... I like my coffee black, and I generally dont care if its picked from tree A) or tree B) as long as it costs the same and tastes the same... other people might like tree B)...
emorphien
Audioholic General
I agree. Well built and appropriate gauge are probably most important to me. Beyond that it just gets silly, I just like a good solidly built cable that won't fall apart on me in 5 or 10 years like cheap ones will and that is properly shielded.mustang_steve said:
mtrycrafts
Seriously, I have no life.
Duettadude said:(sticks neck out) I can hear differences on my system, so.... am I crazy?
What kind of differences, when, under what conditions?
No, you are not crazy to think you hear something. That is the brain just playing games
Have you ever asked a person to repeat something you thought they said just to be told, that they didn't say a word? There goes your brain filling in blanks.
D
Duettadude
Enthusiast
Hehee, I asked for it!
Differences I've heard: Tried out Speltz Anti-Cables, replacing Space and Time knock-offs. Huge difference, no if's ands, or buts. The system sounded louder, much clearer, (the, "lifting of a curtain" tired out discription) with a deeper soundstage.
Tried Zebra's, and found they were very close to the Speltz, only difference? Bass was not quite as deep and it wasen't as easy to hear the soundfield of a recording. BUT these were very small differences.
Audio Quest AQ2 cables. Terrible, sounded like all the life was sucked out of the music.
And yes I a/b them, and my wife could hear the changes.
Dont get me started on IC's or power cables.
Differences I've heard: Tried out Speltz Anti-Cables, replacing Space and Time knock-offs. Huge difference, no if's ands, or buts. The system sounded louder, much clearer, (the, "lifting of a curtain" tired out discription) with a deeper soundstage.
Tried Zebra's, and found they were very close to the Speltz, only difference? Bass was not quite as deep and it wasen't as easy to hear the soundfield of a recording. BUT these were very small differences.
Audio Quest AQ2 cables. Terrible, sounded like all the life was sucked out of the music.
And yes I a/b them, and my wife could hear the changes.
Dont get me started on IC's or power cables.
G
GreenJelly
Banned
Their is a simple test...
Its a double blind test...
Allow someone to use a two different wirers. Have them both hooked up to the speakers. Then have them switch wirers without you knowing which wirers they pick.
Then tell them which ones sound better.
Have them do this randomly 5-10 times. And if you can tell the difference every time then you know the investment you made is good. If not, then you have learned not to repeat the mistake...
Oxidization occures only when their is oxigen. Cables have insulation, theirfor they have no ability to have access to Oxigen.
When you move current through a wire, the atoms vibrate at an increased speed. The more current, the more vibrations. This vibration is evident in high power lines that hum, and/or results in heat. In AC power, vibration is added because of the 60hz of switching that occurs which is the US standard for utility power. Europeans and other countries use a higher frequency (I beleive its 110hz). They are more prone to the humming sound, however they also loose less current over a larger distance.
We can thank Tesla for all of this. Tesla was probably the best electriction the world has ever seen. However he is not given much credit. In fact, in the museum in Washington, he is barely mentioned in any of the contributions he accomplished (which are many). He was eccentric, and thus was forgotten or simply ignored. Edison and Tesla didnt get along, but Edison had a personality that was much more charismatic. Thus Edison is a well known name, where Tesla is beign forgotten. It is sad that Tesla wasnt and isnt acknowledged outside the schools of electrical engineering.
Larger wirers dont vibrate as much because the ratio of current to conductive material is great.
As for speaker wirer, I recommend copper strand wirer with good, easy to use, connects. Most connects are made out of gold, which happens to have the disability of beign corrosive. Therefor every ten years or more, you should clean your gold and copper connects. Again, this is only what is exposed to oxygen, and is not within the insulated wirers.
Also the insulation used today will last for hundreds of years. Old houses used a fiber based insulation that deteriates over time. Today we use polymers that will probably exist for hundreds of thousands of years. Some day the human species will probably disapear. If intelligent life re-emerges, they will have excavations of our old civilizations, and find plastic all over the place. They will also find Twinkies. hehe
The original price on these connects were over $10 for 4 (one speaker wirer). That would have been over $60 for a 5.1 system... ouch... Therefor I wouldnt buy them... however they since they discontinued them, they were selling them for $4... Very nice... so I bought 6 or 7 of them... had to run around the city to get enough of them, but I beleive the ease of use, the quality of connects and the price was right.
My Speaker cable is also Monster... However, once again, I bought it years ago when Radioshack was discontinuing the cables. Therefor it was slightly more expensive then what I COULD of gotten from HomeDepot, but the visual quality of them, the flexibility of the wirers, and the large 10 gaudge made it a good investment. Again, I didnt spend much more then $10 for large roles of it. I also bought the monster RCA wirers, because they were on a massive reduction of price (70% off), they were thick and flexible, and were of good quality. However, after a few years of usage, the RCA's are kinda falling appart... so for thoose who are looking at $20-$30 Monster Interconnects, verse the $2-3 normal ones, I would recommend the normal ones. They simply last longer.
Lastly the studies I have found, and trust, were performed, not only by audiophiles, but electrictions and psycologists too make sure that the study was performed in a way that was fair in all instances. I fear that the problem people experiance poor performance with home made, cables is due the low quality of the construction they utilize. Few people have the ability to make very good sodering connections. And less people have the ability to provide the needed precision to construct their own cables with connects. I am lucky because of my fathers long history with creating and fixing electronics, his Masters in EE, and his and mine profectionism.
The usage of Psycologists in these studies are very important. Many Psycologists dont do head shrinking. Instead they study the human mind and body. What Is important in this case is their consistant scientific approach to studies of human hearing. They create studies that test the capabilities of human hearing, they then publish these studies, and how they were conducted. Then other scientists become critics and point out the problems with these studies. Then the issues are addressed, and the process repeats itself. They have learned allot, which is the background for many of my statements in this forum. The biggest things they learned are that; Everyone hearing is different. Some have exceptional abilities to hear extremely high frequencies, while other people are very sensitive to small changes in the tones of sound. The majority of people have spots in our hearing that are not as good as others. Its like having a equalizer in our brains that is alittle askew. We also are often granted with one ear that can hear better then the other ear.
If you test someone with various gaps in the sound, you will find another ability people have. That is, some people will not hear the gaps, and will hear a steady tone. Others will hear choppy sound.
How we hear isnt just with our ears, but how our brain processes the sound. Also, if you train people to listen better, they can start "feeling" differences in all of the above areas, but they cannot tell exactly what is going on. This makes tests with audio equipment even harder, and more of the reason we need scientists to conduct these studies.
For all of us, we MUST spend time at high quality speaker stores. Listening to sound from different speakers. Many sales men in this area understand this, and will give you hours of time to just listen. You can then sit their and train yourself to hear better. Adjust volume levels of speakers, and just listen. Analyse the sound, pay close attention. Be more attuned to the smallest of differences. Listen to the breath of the signer, the vibration that continues well after a string is plucked. The feeling of the base on your skin. Feel the music, or what I call, having the hair on the back of your kneck stand up.
This is all important, and is not often mentioned or understood by many consumers and sales men in the Highend Audio world.
The reason I wrote all of this, is because I have done research on speaker cables and these tests. The best ones, I beleive, are the ones that test peoples hearing ability, that uses a large range of people who have different abilities, that spend time teaching them how to listen carefully, that are objective, and are not influenced by the industries.
I have seen tests that meet this criteria, and that come up with no conclusive evidence that one wire is better then the other. They go so far as to classify the abilities of different peoples approach and ability to hear, and they publish not only the overall results, but also the individual classes of people. These tests all fall with-in the margin of error.
With that said, the cable industries continue to point to studies that prove otherwise. I fear that this may be another case of "Big Tobacco" proving that smoking doesnt cause cancer. Then again, they often are the ones to make the best disputes over the tests performed.
Mike
Its a double blind test...
Allow someone to use a two different wirers. Have them both hooked up to the speakers. Then have them switch wirers without you knowing which wirers they pick.
Then tell them which ones sound better.
Have them do this randomly 5-10 times. And if you can tell the difference every time then you know the investment you made is good. If not, then you have learned not to repeat the mistake...
Besides for the fact that we are NOT using AC, if this was a real problem, then the problem would exist in the Power Supply of amplifiers and not in the cables we use. It would also mean that all of our hous hold and utility cables (in the house, up on the street or underground) would have a certain lifespan. However this is not the case, at least not for decades. And the reason they would have to be replaced would probably have to do with the insulation and not the cables themselves.Ampdog said:
Oxidization occures only when their is oxigen. Cables have insulation, theirfor they have no ability to have access to Oxigen.
When you move current through a wire, the atoms vibrate at an increased speed. The more current, the more vibrations. This vibration is evident in high power lines that hum, and/or results in heat. In AC power, vibration is added because of the 60hz of switching that occurs which is the US standard for utility power. Europeans and other countries use a higher frequency (I beleive its 110hz). They are more prone to the humming sound, however they also loose less current over a larger distance.
We can thank Tesla for all of this. Tesla was probably the best electriction the world has ever seen. However he is not given much credit. In fact, in the museum in Washington, he is barely mentioned in any of the contributions he accomplished (which are many). He was eccentric, and thus was forgotten or simply ignored. Edison and Tesla didnt get along, but Edison had a personality that was much more charismatic. Thus Edison is a well known name, where Tesla is beign forgotten. It is sad that Tesla wasnt and isnt acknowledged outside the schools of electrical engineering.
Larger wirers dont vibrate as much because the ratio of current to conductive material is great.
As for speaker wirer, I recommend copper strand wirer with good, easy to use, connects. Most connects are made out of gold, which happens to have the disability of beign corrosive. Therefor every ten years or more, you should clean your gold and copper connects. Again, this is only what is exposed to oxygen, and is not within the insulated wirers.
Also the insulation used today will last for hundreds of years. Old houses used a fiber based insulation that deteriates over time. Today we use polymers that will probably exist for hundreds of thousands of years. Some day the human species will probably disapear. If intelligent life re-emerges, they will have excavations of our old civilizations, and find plastic all over the place. They will also find Twinkies. hehe
Mustang Steve has it right! I make my cables out of Copper wire I find at home depot. I then add my own connects that I buy at RadioShack. I was lucky to find that when buying connects for my current speakers, that they were discontinuing the Monster Brand Horse Shoe Connects. These connects really are great, because they are strong (they dont bend like cheap connects), easy to install, with a great surface area provided between the copper wire and the connects, and they fit my purposes very well.mustang_steve said:
The original price on these connects were over $10 for 4 (one speaker wirer). That would have been over $60 for a 5.1 system... ouch... Therefor I wouldnt buy them... however they since they discontinued them, they were selling them for $4... Very nice... so I bought 6 or 7 of them... had to run around the city to get enough of them, but I beleive the ease of use, the quality of connects and the price was right.
My Speaker cable is also Monster... However, once again, I bought it years ago when Radioshack was discontinuing the cables. Therefor it was slightly more expensive then what I COULD of gotten from HomeDepot, but the visual quality of them, the flexibility of the wirers, and the large 10 gaudge made it a good investment. Again, I didnt spend much more then $10 for large roles of it. I also bought the monster RCA wirers, because they were on a massive reduction of price (70% off), they were thick and flexible, and were of good quality. However, after a few years of usage, the RCA's are kinda falling appart... so for thoose who are looking at $20-$30 Monster Interconnects, verse the $2-3 normal ones, I would recommend the normal ones. They simply last longer.
Lastly the studies I have found, and trust, were performed, not only by audiophiles, but electrictions and psycologists too make sure that the study was performed in a way that was fair in all instances. I fear that the problem people experiance poor performance with home made, cables is due the low quality of the construction they utilize. Few people have the ability to make very good sodering connections. And less people have the ability to provide the needed precision to construct their own cables with connects. I am lucky because of my fathers long history with creating and fixing electronics, his Masters in EE, and his and mine profectionism.
The usage of Psycologists in these studies are very important. Many Psycologists dont do head shrinking. Instead they study the human mind and body. What Is important in this case is their consistant scientific approach to studies of human hearing. They create studies that test the capabilities of human hearing, they then publish these studies, and how they were conducted. Then other scientists become critics and point out the problems with these studies. Then the issues are addressed, and the process repeats itself. They have learned allot, which is the background for many of my statements in this forum. The biggest things they learned are that; Everyone hearing is different. Some have exceptional abilities to hear extremely high frequencies, while other people are very sensitive to small changes in the tones of sound. The majority of people have spots in our hearing that are not as good as others. Its like having a equalizer in our brains that is alittle askew. We also are often granted with one ear that can hear better then the other ear.
If you test someone with various gaps in the sound, you will find another ability people have. That is, some people will not hear the gaps, and will hear a steady tone. Others will hear choppy sound.
How we hear isnt just with our ears, but how our brain processes the sound. Also, if you train people to listen better, they can start "feeling" differences in all of the above areas, but they cannot tell exactly what is going on. This makes tests with audio equipment even harder, and more of the reason we need scientists to conduct these studies.
For all of us, we MUST spend time at high quality speaker stores. Listening to sound from different speakers. Many sales men in this area understand this, and will give you hours of time to just listen. You can then sit their and train yourself to hear better. Adjust volume levels of speakers, and just listen. Analyse the sound, pay close attention. Be more attuned to the smallest of differences. Listen to the breath of the signer, the vibration that continues well after a string is plucked. The feeling of the base on your skin. Feel the music, or what I call, having the hair on the back of your kneck stand up.
This is all important, and is not often mentioned or understood by many consumers and sales men in the Highend Audio world.
The reason I wrote all of this, is because I have done research on speaker cables and these tests. The best ones, I beleive, are the ones that test peoples hearing ability, that uses a large range of people who have different abilities, that spend time teaching them how to listen carefully, that are objective, and are not influenced by the industries.
I have seen tests that meet this criteria, and that come up with no conclusive evidence that one wire is better then the other. They go so far as to classify the abilities of different peoples approach and ability to hear, and they publish not only the overall results, but also the individual classes of people. These tests all fall with-in the margin of error.
With that said, the cable industries continue to point to studies that prove otherwise. I fear that this may be another case of "Big Tobacco" proving that smoking doesnt cause cancer. Then again, they often are the ones to make the best disputes over the tests performed.
Mike
Last edited:
mtrycrafts
Seriously, I have no life.
Duettadude said:And yes I a/b them, and my wife could hear the changes.
Dont get me started on IC's or power cables.
Yes, of course you a/b them. You had to to compare two cables
The question is how well did you control human bias? I bet you didn't. And yes, your wife is also biased. Or, did she get her unbiased card punched someplace
It is amazing that the better the controls, the less one can hear the differences that just a few minutes before was so obvious. Sorry, not convincing evidence.
Resident Loser
Senior Audioholic
Haven't read...
...the entire thread, so forgive me if I'm in any way reiterating the following:
You will most likely get better results from a minor re-orientation of your loudspeakers than from all of the OFC, SCC, teflon-coated hoo-ha that you can afford...
After all wire is wire, or more specifically:
Since there is, at this time, no objective, conclusive and repeatable evidence provided by currently applied and accepted test methodology and within commensurate parameters germaine to the subject under test to the contrary, further augmented by analysis of subjective evaluation produced under strict controls and protocols, there simply is no proof, other than that provided as anecdotal evidence (which is subject to a vast array of potential biases) that there is any significant audible difference in wire of a similar type, length and gauge.
jimHJJ(...so there...)
...the entire thread, so forgive me if I'm in any way reiterating the following:
You will most likely get better results from a minor re-orientation of your loudspeakers than from all of the OFC, SCC, teflon-coated hoo-ha that you can afford...
After all wire is wire, or more specifically:
Since there is, at this time, no objective, conclusive and repeatable evidence provided by currently applied and accepted test methodology and within commensurate parameters germaine to the subject under test to the contrary, further augmented by analysis of subjective evaluation produced under strict controls and protocols, there simply is no proof, other than that provided as anecdotal evidence (which is subject to a vast array of potential biases) that there is any significant audible difference in wire of a similar type, length and gauge.
jimHJJ(...so there...)
D
Duettadude
Enthusiast
mtrycrafts said:Yes, of course you a/b them. You had to to compare two cables
The question is how well did you control human bias? I bet you didn't. And yes, your wife is also biased. Or, did she get her unbiased card punched someplace
It is amazing that the better the controls, the less one can hear the differences that just a few minutes before was so obvious. Sorry, not convincing evidence.
You had to be there.
One other example:
Went to a friends house for a get-together, and compare cables, DAC's, eq's etc..
I'll make it short, we eq'd the system with a Beringer (sp?) digital eq. The sound of the system was excellent (Apogee Scintillas w/ H2O amps/ preamp) a little loss of upper detail (it's only a $400.00 eq so I'll forgive it) but the bass cleaned up (was a little sloppy) and over-all balance was very,very, good. Then we changed the power cords to Furuotech (300.00 ea.
X6) Then we listened to the system with everything else being the same. Sounded like crap. Soundstage was flat, and over-all sounded lifeless, out of time. Really wierd. We then turned off the eq. WOW, it sounded better than the eq'd setup before the power cables! Soundstage sounded wider deeper, bass was tight, and musical. Upper detail shimmer was back (the small fault of the eq), etc, etc.Here's the kicker, there were six people there. We made sure we asked questions like "well, what do you think changed?" Everytime, the answers mirrored my own, and the others there. There was consensus, negative or positive.
G
GreenJelly
Banned
I like monkeys... I think they are funny... and i always want to give them Bananas...
krabapple
Banned
er...no comment.GreenJelly said:
Arguably, the 'biggest thing' that psychologist learned was how prone to error
human perception is...how *easy* it is for us to convince ourselves we hear/see/remember things that *weren't real*.
Maybe, maybe not. Someone who hasn't got the hair cells left for it simply isn't going to hear 20 kHz. Period.
Listening at stores isn't really that useful. Simple differences in speaker position can make subjectively AND objectively a much greater difference in sound than the measurable intrinsic differences between the speakers.
The most reliable way to compare speakers would be in the home, with some sort of setup to quickly switch speakers in and out fo the same position.
That ain't gonna happen, though.
krabapple
Banned
Duettadude said:You had to be there.
One other example:
Went to a friends house for a get-together, and compare cables, DAC's, eq's etc..
I'll make it short, we eq'd the system with a Beringer (sp?) digital eq. The sound of the system was excellent (Apogee Scintillas w/ H2O amps/ preamp) a little loss of upper detail (it's only a $400.00 eq so I'll forgive it) but the bass cleaned up (was a little sloppy) and over-all balance was very,very, good. Then we changed the power cords to Furuotech (300.00 ea.
Here's the kicker, there were six people there. We made sure we asked questions like "well, what do you think changed?" Everytime, the answers mirrored my own, and the others there. There was consensus, negative or positive.
Of course, even ASKING them if they 'think something changed', in the first place, is really biasing the result.
Just another 'wow we all heard it' anecdote to add to the pile. There's a reason controls exist in science, you know. You don't have to 'be there' so much as do the test RIGHT if you want accurate answers.
mtrycrafts
Seriously, I have no life.
Duettadude said:You had to be there.
One other example:
Went to a friends house for a get-together, and compare cables, DAC's, eq's etc..
I'll make it short, we eq'd the system with a Beringer (sp?) digital eq. The sound of the system was excellent (Apogee Scintillas w/ H2O amps/ preamp) a little loss of upper detail (it's only a $400.00 eq so I'll forgive it) but the bass cleaned up (was a little sloppy) and over-all balance was very,very, good. Then we changed the power cords to Furuotech (300.00 ea.
Here's the kicker, there were six people there. We made sure we asked questions like "well, what do you think changed?" Everytime, the answers mirrored my own, and the others there. There was consensus, negative or positive.
Turning off the EQ altered the sound? Of course that alters the sound if you had the EQ altering the FR in the first place.
You and your guests were still biased, no matter how you try to slice and dice it
Unless the power cable has changed the ground plane of the system, somehow, no reason for it to alter the signal to the speaker terminals. But that is a different issue.
No, you are not convincing yet.
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