Speaker Wire Myths and Truths

[GreenJelly]

I tried to explain basic ideas of what electric does when it is placed in or near an atom. I cannot do better.

If you dont know what AC current does, then you better not buy speakers... Or live in a house with Electric... or use a light bulb...

You might want to shoot yourself in the head... for their is a natural selection process... and thoose who dont know something, then are told it, then still dont understand, so its explained again, then they dont google... I feel might meet this need.

Start learning

 

[GreenJelly]

Im sorry about the last post... but Im not going to change it... I am here helping people all the time... and either this person is mocking me, or he is a true idiot, and needs to read about the basics of electric. He also shouldnt worry about what cable he buys, for he shouldnt be buying cable...

Mike

 

[Duettadude]

the current doesnt switch, on and off...

I am at a loss what you are trying to say here.

I'll play nice and explain. AC alternates between positive and negative. This is the frequency that it operates at. Thus the "sine wave" when you look at AC on a osilloscope. No flip flop, well there is, not on and off I should say.

Thats it... AC creates vibration... but DC doesnt (they both create excitement in the atoms), but AC can excite the eliments to the point of vibrating and making noise.

See above. The "vibration", as in a transformer, is called hysteresis, the "buzzing" you can hear in large transformers. It does not wear out wire.

Please document this and explain it further. Don't hold back; Jneutron will understand all of it.

DC produces electron excitement that is way, way, way beyond what most people not only can hear, but that can measure with most scientific equipment.

Oh, really? What kind of equipment? Does Radio Shack carries this equipment? The national labs?

Vibration creates heat,

With electron motion?

No, with power production/usage IE: current.

However we are talking about a METAL... and not a soft one at that. Its not going to break apart, or deteriate.

Mike

Copper is not soft? Which ones will deteriorate and fall apart?[/QUOTE]

No, it does not wear out. I think you are refering to people stating that cables need to "burn in". Personally I've never heard any cable burn in, but I can tell the difference in cables side by side, in my system.

A good book to use for simple electrical calcuations is Uglys Electrical-References, by George V. Hart.

Hope this helps.

 

[no. 5]

I'll play nice and explain. AC alternates between positive and negative. This is the frequency that it operates at. Thus the "sine wave" when you look at AC on a osilloscope. No flip flop, well there is, not on and off I should say.

on and off would be a square wave

 

[Duettadude]

on and off would be a square wave

Yup, a better term is AC "swings" from pos to neg.

 

[GreenJelly]

the current doesnt switch, on and off...

I am at a loss what you are trying to say here.

I'll play nice and explain. AC alternates between positive and negative. This is the frequency that it operates at. Thus the "sine wave" when you look at AC on a osilloscope. No flip flop, well there is, not on and off I should say.

AC is not a sign wave, like stated above... ON/OFF. Its not quite square, though we try to make it square. The power will remain on after they switch for short periods of time before it goes off. But again, this is insignificant. I beleive that this is partially caused by the lack of termination at the end of the loop. It is also because the copper acts like a battery for a very short time. Again we are picking at straws, and looking at things that last for very minute amounts of time.

Thats it... AC creates vibration... but DC doesnt (they both create excitement in the atoms), but AC can excite the eliments to the point of vibrating and making noise.

See above. The "vibration", as in a transformer, is called hysteresis, the "buzzing" you can hear in large transformers. It does not wear out wire.

Please document this and explain it further. Don't hold back; Jneutron will understand all of it.

When ever you add energy to a atom, it moves faster. Electric or Heat will cause the atom to move faster. This in turn will create the atom to move around and thus "vibrate" so to say, which will cause heat. AC causes this vibration which you call hysteresis. It will not wear out the wire cause the wire is thick enough, and is made out of metal and will thus be-able to deal with the vibration.

DC produces electron excitement that is way, way, way beyond what most people not only can hear, but that can measure with most scientific equipment.

Oh, really? What kind of equipment? Does Radio Shack carries this equipment? The national labs?

You can see it with a electron microscope that is powerfull enough to look at the molicules move. You can measure it with a scope, or a meter, which will ultimately mean that their is power. With the amount of power, the materal used, and the temp it is under and an understanding of the laws stated, you can understand the effects on a molecular level. This is due to the fact that very smart people have established these properties and laws. However if you put a molicule under a powerfull microscope, and you apply DC current to it, the molicule will move. As for the actual sound, all molicules move air... this movement of air could be called sound, though it really is just a movement of particles. Its the natural harmonic nature of the world and the universe. It is not something people in the audio industry has to worry about

Vibration creates heat,

With electron motion?

No, with power production/usage IE: current.

With the pressence of electric, as stated above.

However we are talking about a METAL... and not a soft one at that. Its not going to break apart, or deteriate.

Mike

Copper is not soft? Which ones will deteriorate and fall apart?[/

No, it does not wear out. I think you are refering to people stating that cables need to "burn in". Personally I've never heard any cable burn in, but I can tell the difference in cables side by side, in my system.

A good book to use for simple electrical calcuations is Uglys Electrical-References, by George V. Hart.

Hope this helps.

Coper will fall apart. The bonds between copper molicules will fall apart. However, not at the level we are talking about.

For instance... Apply 1,000 amps to a single strand of copper. It melts, hence the bonds that keep copper together will fall apart. We ofcourse are way under this load, and a 18 gaudge copper wire should handle all the power we throw at it in the Audio world.

However, 18 gaudge wire in a AC 120v large load, used in power cords, can cause fire (depending on Amps). This can also happen under large loads of DC current, though this is not like the statement I made above where the coper wire melts. The fire is caused by the insullation melting, and the other materials around it. The heat is caused by the power making the coper "vibrate" or "osolate" or what ever technical term they use to express this.

Mike

BTW; I think we are on the same page, but for some reason it seem like you need to test me on the basic principles of physics.

 

[Ampdog]

In reply to my post #66, where I joked that manufacturers have not yet discovered that cable will wear out as a result of the current intensity (I do not seem able to post two quotes on the same page):

Besides for the fact that we are NOT using AC, if this was a real problem, then the problem would exist in the Power Supply of amplifiers and not in the cables we use. It would also mean that all of our hous hold and utility cables (in the house, up on the street or underground) would have a certain lifespan. However this is not the case, at least not for decades. And the reason they would have to be replaced would probably have to do with the insulation and not the cables themselves. Mike

Greenjelly, my friend,

Er - with all respect, did you not see that this was a joke, totally tongue-in-the-cheek? It was in keeping with some remarks that preceeded this - apologies if it mislead you. Perhaps I can restore a little confidence in me

But I also do not quite understand why you say that we are not using AC?? We are talking of loudspeaker signal wires? As information to someone else's question, in electricity "alternating current" means everything that periodically reverses polarity. As such it does not only refer to sine waves, but also square waves (which by the Fourier principle is just a combination of the right sine waves). In electronics one also uses this term if very often one really means alternating voltage.

I would also like to make another matter clear. The witness that changes are heard between loudspeaker cables, is not only a factor of said cables. If, say, someone in the kitchen had heard "a difference", was that person standing dead still in the same position (plus everybody else in the vicinity)? Did people ever walk around during a piece of music and notice the quite noticable difference between listening positions - or when someone else moved? The effect is certainly not due to normal cable differences - but also not always imaginary!

I would also like to say that blind tests consisting of a few change-overs only can be fraught with difficulty. May I quote the example where a few scientists repeated the very trivial experiment of flipping a coin. Two statistics were noted each time: The position of the coin, and what everybody's prediction was. After the total repetition of some 150 times the result was as expected: A just about 50/50 fall of the coin, and personal prediction results also somewhere there. But - sometimes the coin would come the same side up, up to 5 times in succession. Also the same person could make the correct prediction up to 6 time in succession sometime during the total test.

The moral: If only those times were taken, it would give the impression that the coin was heavily biased or the subject was psychic. Proper blind tests need to be repeated a number of times if there appears to be some preference, before that preference is of statistical value. A limited number of examples is not necessarily random!

The test for a meaningful result in this field is usually: Is it necessary to bring in some mysticism etc. to try to explain an experience? Are any assumptions contrary to basic science made? (Things that scientists have not discovered yet, things that cannot yet be measured, etc.) The bland truth is that the audio field is a very small and relatively simple increment at the low end of the frequency spectrum known to us. It is not likely that revolutionary principles would still be discovered here, and then, as someone said, totally unlikely that those manufacturers claiming such would be in a position to make the discovery. Scientists do not know everything, but they know certain things.

 

[GreenJelly]

I dont beleive the current ever switches polarity on todays amps. Even when bridged, amps only provide a -v power source on the second line.

A switch in polarity would effectively cancle out any simular sounds coming from the second speaker. Though I guess this could create some interesting opportunities for people who are smart enough to use this with the digital signal processors to add additional range to surround sound.

Then again a normal 5.1 setup is just about what we all need. These 6.1 and 7.1 systems are overkill for a majority of the people who use them.

Mike

 

[no. 5]

A switch in polarity would effectively cancle out any simular sounds coming from the second speaker.

assuming the switch in polarity is oppisit to the second speaker, if the speakers stay in phase to each other no change in sound will happen.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.

I think you are wasting your efforts there. But good try.

 

[GreenJelly]

I guess you are missing my point. Read my earlier threads, and understand what I buy for speaker wire... I buy cheap stuff... 100 ft for 14 gaudge... $30 shipped.

Someone stated the "reasoning" the company used, and it is logic reasoning... and as I showed, after stateing how silly the idea was, that the logic exists. However, the issue isnt the logic, the issue is that the these products dont do anything because the physics and electronics are just not in a position for these "advanced" wirers to provide any benifit. In addition, many times the logic they use may be sound, but they impliment it in a way that makes things worse.

Even if the logic is sound, and they impliment it in a perfect way, you STILL wouldnt notice a difference... even if you used some of the most sensitive electronic scopes and meters available.

So if you are thinking that I am supporting these snake oil sales men? HELL NO! They rip people off every day, and they really ruin the industry as a whole.

In addition, look at my post history, and see how many times I warn people against the cable sales pitch that they will receive, and not to buy the ****.

So dont think Im stupid, nor ignorant... because I have shown you that I have a firm understanding of the physics involved, the psycology of the studies done, the electronics and the materials, The sales tactics these companies use and the importance of not providing bad or inaccurate information.

When I am wrong, as I had been just recently in another thread, I admit I am wrong, and I appoligize. Today and on this forum I have not written anything thats wrong... though it may not be written in a perfectly clear and edited way.

Mike

 

[Ampdog]

My last bow here

I think you are wasting your efforts there. But good try.

Yes, I do get that impression; thanks for your sympathy.

Let us just try to get back on (practical) track here. Mike, with all respect, no, I do not always follow you, but not to cross swords (I don't even own one).

Point is, the track here is loudspeaker wire effect (if any) from an AUDIBLE point of view - or then hearing. We are not concerned with atomic theory or position of Cu on the Periodic Chart or magnetic field physics, unless it is concerned with an audible effect, if any. The topic is loudspeaker wires; nobody ever said wire or cable do not make a difference per se.

In that respect I think the following has been measured, explained and published ad nauseam (and we are talking about general domestic conditions, not PA or such where cable lengths of hundreds of meters are concerned):

1. The resistance of everything but bell wire is so low that about 0,2 dB of loss occurs (for an 8 ohm system). Such a change in level is totally inaudible.

2. Any inductive effect is less than 0,08 dB. Such a change in level is totally inaudible. (Variation in loudspeaker phase angle is some 100 times more.)

3. Any capacitive effect is even less than the above. Such a change in level is totally inaudible.

4. Any cable impedance effect is totally irrelevant. For such to have any remote effect, a line length must be some 5% or more of the wave-length of the highest frequency handled. The electrical wavelength in cable at 20 KHz is about 9 Km. Thus below 500 meters of cable ......

If anybody disagrees to the extent that any of the above basic factors might make a difference, please address us. But with practical figures - we have had all the theory; it is available in text books. And please, also not the weary old bleat; "Engineers still cannot measure certain things." There is nothing, on this subject at least, that modern instruments cannot measure accurately enough.

There are far more important things in the amplifier/loudspeaker interface worthy of attention, like the misunderstood damping factor, the effect of NFB and power stage internal impedance, noise induction, etc. And in contrast to the above, these can be very audible.

 

[GreenJelly]

Point is, the track here is loudspeaker wire effect (if any) from an AUDIBLE point of view - or then hearing. We are not concerned with atomic theory or position of Cu on the Periodic Chart or magnetic field physics, unless it is concerned with an audible effect, if any. The topic is loudspeaker wires; nobody ever said wire or cable do not make a difference per se.

As you stated, we beat the hell out of the fact that Speaker Wire and RCA doesnt make much difference if your going to spend 32cents a foot or $100 a foot.

Therefor I am having fun talking about the Atomic Theory behind the principles of these products and how it relates to their claim. The truth is, that their claims are have a degree of truth to them. They are just so minimalized that they become unimportant and totally inaudible. I feel strongly that this has been proven from not only using scientific theory but also through scientific experimentation. Following the Scientific Processes is important when making claims like we do in this thread. Yet we cant do nothing about the monster cable, MIT, and other speaker wire snake oil sales men, because their claims have scientific evidence that their products may produce a benifit based on this Scientific Theory.

They dont need to prove that their products make a difference to the human ear, just that their claims are infact solid in theory. Which as I was triing to point out, they can make these claims.

If a product isnt based on Theory that is discredited, then that company must change their stance and claims, or risk civil lawsuit. In some cases, I beleive the claims are so false that that there should be lawyers stepping up to the plate here and taking on a class action lawsuit. In other cases, the product claims where so wrong and mystical that the company was forced to pull their product before they faced civil retailiation.

Just my ideas, hey you dont need to read them
Mike

 

[nibhaz]

What the heck does RCA have to do with this conversation? You do know that is not a type of cable, but rather a type of connector...yes, no?

 

[GreenJelly]

Yes, it is a connector, and It is also the name of a CABLE... So, Im sorry If I dont call them interconnects, or some other term you feel is fair.

RCA Interconnects, or RCA cables are accurate commonly used terms to describe a wire with two RCA connectors on them. Just google "RCA Cables", and see how many people sell "RCA Cables". Now you could argue that the common language describing these cables is incorrect however, common language is the means in which we communicate.

Calling them "Interconnects" is actually inapropriate, but I dont complain when people do so.

in·ter·con·nect Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-ter-kuh-nekt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object) 1. to connect with one another.
–verb (used without object) 2. to be or become connected or interrelated.
–adjective 3. Telecommunications. a. pertaining to customer-owned equipment that is connected to or has access to the public telephone network.
b. pertaining to companies that supply equipment to customers: a leading interconnect company.​

 

[nibhaz]

Just because the masses refers to an object inaccurately does not make it something it is not.

By this same line of logic one could say that the noise produced by Bose is the proper way in which music is supposed to be reproduced because the masses believe it is so.

Just because somebody in marketing prints something on a label doesn’t mean that is the proper term to use. Just take look at the power ratings for receivers or HTIB when they are displayed in a store.

For someone attempting to espouse information in a forum that prides it’s self in pursing the truth it of the utmost importance to convey one’s ideas in the most correct terminology.

This is especially true when dealing with a technical subject and when attempting to speak from a position of knowledge.

Now riddle me this:

If now I take a piece of RG6 and terminate each end with RCA connectors does it change the fact that I have RG6 between the two connectors?

Now what if I have a piece of CAT5 and terminate each end with RCA connectors does it change the fact that I have CAT5 between the two connectors?

Would it not be misleading and highly in accurate to refer to these cables with the same name since it is clear we are in fact referring to two deferent types of cables, however terminated in a similar manner?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Just because the masses refers to an object inaccurately does not make it something it is not.

You mean just because 90% of the world population believes in the supernatural being and designer, it may not be true?

 

[Nick250]

"RCA cable" is just slang, and most everyone knows what we are talking about when using that term.

Nick

 

[no. 5]

You mean just because 90% of the world population believes in the supernatural being and designer, it may not be true?

naw, I think he means cables.

 

[GreenJelly]

This is crazy Nibahz...

Sources
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/Category/category_slc.asp?CatId=450
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=search&ci=4165&Q=&O=NavBar
http://www.cablesnmor.com/rca-cables.html
http://www.installer.com/rca/
http://www.epinions.com/Cables_and_Connectors--reviews--rca_cable
http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/audio_toslink_cables.html
http://www.monstercable.com/home_av/video_cables/composite-rca.asp
http://www.electronixwarehouse.com/car/accessories/rca-cables.htm
http://www.orbaudio.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=15&gclid=CInDmeuRpYkCFRZXFQodP3uSUA
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-rxnwSYBEObO/cgi-bin/ProdGroup.asp?g=23111
http://www.trianglecables.com/rca-cables-three-conductors.html
http://shopping.yahoo.com/s:Cables:4168-Brand=RCA
http://www.cablestogo.com/categories.asp?cat_id=2000&engine=adwords!654&keyword=(rca+cables)&gclid=CMTNpLOSpYkCFTcrFQodTXVQUQ
http://www.surplussales.com/Connectors/RCA-2.html

I can keep posting places that sell "RCA CABLES"...

But I guess ALL these people... 4,260,000 Results on google... are all false, and are all wrong on the terminology. Slang or not... Everyone knows what a RCA Cable is, except for you.

Ofcourse we could also call it RCA Composite Cable, RCA Video Cable, RCA Stereo Cables, etc...