PSA subwoofers. I talked with Tom

[Matt34]

Yours is a hopeful posting.

There is no reason for PSA to not submit their subs for testing—other than they may not test well. And “who” gets into spats with “THE” only reviewer still doing ground plane CEA2010 measurements? Seems a poor judgement call.

Sure there is, no manufacturer is beholden to provide free product to a publication for review. Tom and company have been at this for decades and has in the past, had his subs externally tested. Obviously, he didn't find it all that beneficial.

 

[Golfx]

That doesn’t stop thousands of customers buying their subs and getting objective data IN THEIR OWN ROOM. PSA, Rythmik, JTR, DSS & Seaton Sound all make excellent products and provide a great value.


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All but PSA submitted their subs for testing.

In room testing comes with room gain and a healthy dose of confirmation bias.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

All but PSA submitted their subs for testing.

In room testing comes with room gain and a healthy dose of confirmation bias.

Just to play devils advocate here. Your statements are true. But you can’t measure confirmation bias with rew. I’ve seen more than a few sweeps illustrating “bias confirmation” though, so to speak. I’m also pretty sure Toms design work at svs is still in some of their last generation subs. I don’t have proof of that, but seem to remember that from other threads. It’s easy to get down on the guy for not sending out his subs for review. I for one would love to see some cea2010 numbers, and I do believe it would benefit the AV community overall.
BUT, at the end of the day his business model works for him, and he’s absolutely satisfied.

 

[Golfx]

Just to play devils advocate here. Your statements are true. But you can’t measure confirmation bias with rew. I’ve seen more than a few sweeps illustrating “bias confirmation” though, so to speak. I’m also pretty sure Toms design work at svs is still in some of their last generation subs. I don’t have proof of that, but seem to remember that from other threads. It’s easy to get down on the guy for not sending out his subs for review. I for one would love to see some cea2010 numbers, and I do believe it would benefit the AV community overall.
BUT, at the end of the day his business model works for him, and he’s absolutely satisfied.

Other manufacturers submit their products for review. I just want a basis for comparison other than popularity. His reluctance provides unnecessary doubt. Perhaps they will compete very well. We will apparently never know.

 

[shadyJ]

Other manufacturers submit their products for review. I just want a basis for comparison other than popularity. His reluctance provides unnecessary doubt. Perhaps they will compete very well. We will apparently never know.

His products probably perform well but they won't match what Josh Ricci managed to measure with the same drivers. Remember that Ricci was using an amp with nearly unlimited power. Those who use Ricci's measurements as a basis for PSA's products will be off the mark. We will never know by how much, of course.

 

[MarcG]

His products probably perform well but they won't match what Josh Ricci managed to measure with the same drivers. Remember that Ricci was using an amp with nearly unlimited power. Those who use Ricci's measurements as a basis for PSA's products will be off the mark. We will never know by how much, of course.

Hello James,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you compare the DIY dual opposed kit on data-bass which I believe uses identical drivers(21" ipal), less power(4000w vs 6000w) but a significantly larger cabinet(28%)wouldn't the PSA S42 Ipal actually perform better below 20hz given the 28% larger cabinet volume? The DIY kit does measure 3db higher JTR's older S2 below 20hz.

Would the larger cabinet(28%) or extra 2000w have more impact on sub 20hz ULF content?

 

[kini]

They don't get enough love/attention IMO. I know there's been a conflicts between Tom and the Audioholics crew but that shouldn't get in the way of the OBJECTIVE truth.

I'm personally considering a pair PSA S21 Ipal or maybe even a pair of S42 Ipal's as my end game. Living in Canada I can't really afford to be "trying out/Demo'ing" different subs. Also the S21/S42 dimensions have significantly higher WAF for a living room setup. I'd consider JTR if they made a dual opposed subwoofer.

Just take a look at the DIY Dual opposing B&C 21-Ipal with a smaller enclosure VS the PSA offering. It bested the FV18, FV25hp, JTR S2 and only 1dB from the vented Cap 2400's. I don't know why anyone would claim PSA subs can't do ULF unless there's personal vendetta going on here. I'm sure the S42 Ipal is very comparable to the JTR RS2 that gets constant praise, assuming the newer JTR drivers gains 3db that would put it on par with the 21 Ipal below 20hz, and who know's what output PSA gains with the larger cabinet vs this DIY kit.

View attachment 70557

View attachment 70558

"my end game. Living in Canada" =Funk Audio/Harbottle! Not what is essentially a pre-built DIY sub.

I've said this before, the wrong drivers are being used. Sure they can and do produce ULF but at what amount of distortion? And they require a butt load of power to do it. Those drivers are all made for commercial large venue purposes. They're tuned to around 40hz.

The subs Josh tested in various levels of power and in a larger box than PSA uses didn't really out perform and Mononlith 16 by much, especially down low.

Do yourself a favor and just don't. Go with what I mentioned, then for sure you'll have no regrets.

 

[Danzilla31]

Hello James,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you compare the DIY dual opposed kit on data-bass which I believe uses identical drivers(21" ipal), less power(4000w vs 6000w) but a significantly larger cabinet(28%)wouldn't the PSA S42 Ipal actually perform better below 20hz given the 28% larger cabinet volume? The DIY kit does measure 3db higher JTR's older S2 below 20hz.

Would the larger cabinet(28%) or extra 2000w have more impact on sub 20hz ULF content?

I think your question is why some of us wish he would provide good reviewers who do legitimate testing his products to review

Without doing so we would never be able to really answer your questions. We could say theoretically it could. But we could never really know until someone would take his products out of the room and provide true outdoor testing.

I like Tom and I like PSA. I spoke to him when I was making decisions on which direction I should go with my theater room on new speakers and subs. But no matter how much I liked him I honestly couldn't feel okay with spending that amount of money without actual independent data telling me exactly what Im getting because that data helps me understand if these speakers and subs are the right fit for what I am trying to achieve out of the room I have to work with.

Which is ultimately why I went with a RBH and Rythmik combination.

Tom has said he doesn't want to submit subs and speakers for review because of issues he has with how some reviewers and consumers getting caught up in chasing certain numbers. That actually is a fair point.

And also that he doesn't need to because his products sell so well he doesn't have enough time to focus on that anyway and it's not necessary to help his sales. That's acceptable as well I'm happy for his success and I respect his honesty about his stance on this position.

BUT for some buyers including myself it matters. I agree with @Golfx that if he would do independent testing it would get rid of that particular elephant in the room. I just don't think Tom cares enough about independent testing for it to ever happen unfortunately. But I can accept that that is how he feels about this.

 

[Danzilla31]

"my end game. Living in Canada" =Funk Audio/Harbottle! Not what is essentially a pre-built DIY sub.

I've said this before, the wrong drivers are being used. Sure they can and do produce ULF but at what amount of distortion? And they require a butt load of power to do it. Those drivers are all made for commercial large venue purposes. They're tuned to around 40hz.

The subs Josh tested in various levels of power and in a larger box than PSA uses didn't really out perform and Mononlith 16 by much, especially down low.

Do yourself a favor and just don't. Go with what I mentioned, then for sure you'll have no regrets.

I experienced a friend's theater room that owns myltiple Harbottles. Those subs were amazing.

 

[ryanosaur]

I think your question is why some of us wish he would provide good reviewers who do legitimate testing his products to review

Without doing so we would never be able to really answer your questions. We could say theoretically it could. But we could never really know until someone would take his products out of the room and provide true outdoor testing.

I like Tom and I like PSA. I spoke to him when I was making decisions on which direction I should go with my theater room on new speakers and subs. But no matter how much I liked him I honestly couldn't feel okay with spending that amount of money without actual independent data telling me exactly what Im getting because that data helps me understand if these speakers and subs are the right fit for what I am trying to achieve out of the room I have to work with.

Which is ultimately why I went with a RBH and Rythmik combination.

Tom has said he doesn't want to submit subs and speakers for review because of issues he has with how some reviewers and consumers getting caught up in chasing certain numbers. That actually is a fair point.

And also that he doesn't need to because his products sell so well he doesn't have enough time to focus on that anyway and it's not necessary to help his sales. That's acceptable as well I'm happy for his success and I respect his honesty about his stance on this position.

BUT for some buyers including myself it matters. I agree with @Golfx that if he would do independent testing it would get rid of that particular elephant in the room. I just don't think Tom cares enough about independent testing for it to ever happen unfortunately. But I can accept that that is how he feels about this.

If we would ever just post Long Term Output Sweeps and Distortion measurements, that would resolve all questions. That he won't tells me that he knows they won't look good below 20Hz (maybe even higher).

 

[vader540is]

All but PSA submitted their subs for testing.

In room testing comes with room gain and a healthy dose of confirmation bias.

I tested HSU, Rythmik and other brands in my room aswell.


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[Golfx]

I tested HSU, Rythmik and other brands in my room aswell.


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I believe my point was having third party comparative CEA2010 ground plane measurements. Even these may differ significantly if not done by the same person with the same equipment using the same methods each time.

I am sure you are satisfied with your measurements but they do not have any guaranteed rigor and accepted status outside of your judgment.

 

[MarcG]

I believe my point was having third party comparative CEA2010 ground plane measurements. Even these may differ significantly if not done by the same person with the same equipment using the same methods each time.

I am sure you are satisfied with your measurements but they do not have any guaranteed rigor and accepted status outside of your judgment.

Which is why I posted the Dual opposed DIY 21" Ipal numbers from data-bass, FYI those drivers have 22mm Xmax, which are the same drivers PSA uses on their IPAL models. The regular 21's xmax is around 15mm or so.

There seems to be a group pushing the narrative that these drivers can't do ULF which is clearly incorrect. We have data on the 21" Ipals in a small/restrictive enclosure (worse case scenario) but many individuals seem to willfully ignore the data.

No the DIY isn't exactly the same as PSA's, IMO likely worse, but this isn't rocket science. We can draw some conclusions based on the data we have available for those drivers.

*I don't disagree with the sentiment that PSA should release more data/measurements, but on the other hand I've seem over a dozen in-room REW measurements of their subs that gives me confidence in their products.

The smaller PSA subs all seem to hit 12-14hz(TV1512/1513) and the larger ones 6-12hz +/-3dB with impressive output.

Shane measured 118+dB @ 10hz with the regular/weaker 21" driver with limited xmax, the better Ipal driver would likely give him an additional 3+ dB. It's a shame he didn't have duals to solve his massive 20dB nul at 40hz. I would imagine Dual S21 Ipals would get him close to 125dB @10hz / 120dB+ @ 6hz with a smooth response.

There's ton's of in-room measurements if you take the time to look for them, heres DUAL TV2112, again the lesser/weaker of PSA 21' drivers

Dual TV1512

Another TV1512(different room/individual)

TV18F-M

EV1813(16hz port tune)

This took me less than 5 minutes to find, Is this CEA2010? no, but I no longer believe this narrative that Pro drivers can't do ULF. Are pro drivers ideal or the perfect solution? no, but that also doesn't mean they can't work for ULF either.

You also have to factor in price and at the $1500-$2500 price range no one seems to offer this level of 10-15hz ULF performance.

 

[Golfx]

Which is why I posted the Dual opposed DIY 21" Ipal numbers from data-bass, FYI those drivers have 22mm Xmax, which are the same drivers PSA uses on their IPAL models. The regular 21's xmax is around 15mm or so.

There seems to be a group pushing the narrative that these drivers can't do ULF which is clearly incorrect. We have data on the 21" Ipals in a small/restrictive enclosure (worse case scenario) but many individuals seem to willfully ignore the data.

No the DIY isn't exactly the same as PSA's, IMO likely worse, but this isn't rocket science. We can draw some conclusions based on the data we have available for those drivers.

*I don't disagree with the sentiment that PSA should release more data/measurements, but on the other hand I've seem over a dozen in-room REW measurements of their subs that gives me confidence in their products.

The smaller PSA subs all seem to hit 12-14hz(TV1512/1513) and the larger ones 6-12hz +/-3dB with impressive output.

Shane measured 118+dB @ 10hz with the regular/weaker 21" driver with limited xmax, the better Ipal driver would likely give him an additional 3+ dB. It's a shame he didn't have duals to solve his massive 20dB nul at 40hz. I would imagine Dual S21 Ipals would get him close to 125dB @10hz / 120dB+ @ 6hz with a smooth response.

View attachment 70620

There's ton's of in-room measurements if you take the time to look for them, heres DUAL TV2112, again the lesser/weaker of PSA 21' drivers

View attachment 70623

Dual TV1512

View attachment 70624

Another TV1512(different room/individual)
View attachment 70625

TV18F-M
View attachment 70626

EV1813(16hz port tune)

View attachment 70627


This took me less than 5 minutes to find, Is this CEA2010? no, but I no longer believe this narrative that Pro drivers can't do ULF. Are pro drivers ideal or the perfect solution? no, but that also doesn't mean they can't work for ULF either.

You also have to factor in price and at the $1500-$2500 price range no one seems to offer this level of 10-15hz ULF performance.

Hi and thanks for the data posts.
If I were to recommend PSA subs to friends I would want a third party review with CEA2010 ground plane measurements. Your data would help support an owner‘s forum narrative of being a confirmed good purchase.

 

[MarcG]

Hi and thanks for the data posts.
If I were to recommend PSA subs to friends I would want a third party review with CEA2010 ground plane measurements. Your data would help support an owner‘s forum narrative of being a confirmed good purchase.

I would love to see CEA2010's data as well, at the very least he does have FR graphs for all his subs though.

The primary reason I'm considering PSA is the 26 inch height restriction I have for my living room/theater setup. Before I splurge on dual S42 Ipal's I'll be testing(buying) either the S2112m or S1813m for my small 13ft x 13.5 ft x 7ft PC room. This will give me a chance to test their sealed subwoofer in my main system to see if it benefits from room gain. It's a 4,400 cu.ft. room that opens up for a total around 7,000 cu.ft.

Before I opened up the living room I had a response flat to 15hz with dual Outlaw Ultra X12, but after the reno's it rolls off around 22hz(in extension mode)

 

[ryanosaur]

I would love to see CEA2010's data as well, at the very least he does have FR graphs for all his subs though.

The primary reason I'm considering PSA is the 26 inch height restriction I have for my living room/theater setup. Before I splurge on dual S42 Ipal's I'll be testing(buying) either the S2112m or S1813m for my small 13ft x 13.5 ft x 7ft PC room. This will give me a chance to test their sealed subwoofer in my main system to see if it benefits from room gain. It's a 4,400 cu.ft. room that opens up for a total around 7,000 cu.ft.

Before I opened up the living room I had a response flat to 15hz with dual Outlaw Ultra X12, but after the reno's it rolls off around 22hz(in extension mode)

Commonly, room gain benefits start dropping off above 3000cu.ft. I wouldn’t hold out hopes of much support around 7000.
Hope you share your experience with that, please.

 

[MarcG]

Commonly, room gain benefits start dropping off above 3000cu.ft. I wouldn’t hold out hopes of much support around 7000.
Hope you share your experience with that, please.

I don't have my hopes up and will definitely share my results. If I have to go the ported route my options are limited to: Rythmik FV15hp2, PB17 Ultra, PSA TV1813. That's the largest subs I can squeeze in my space.

Although sealed I think the PSA S42 Ipal (dual opposed 21 Ipal drivers , 4000w rms) would outperform the options above

 

[vader540is]

I believe my point was having third party comparative CEA2010 ground plane measurements. Even these may differ significantly if not done by the same person with the same equipment using the same methods each time.

I am sure you are satisfied with your measurements but they do not have any guaranteed rigor and accepted status outside of your judgment.

When I buy a car, I do not rely on a third party to provide objective data, I take it for a test drive.

Don’t get me wrong, when a third party provides objective data , that is awesome.

CEA2010 is getting kinda old tho.


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[Golfx]

When I buy a car, I do not rely on a third party to provide objective data, I take it for a test drive.

Don’t get me wrong, when a third party provides objective data , that is awesome.

CEA2010 is getting kinda old tho.


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If you find a dealer that lets you test drive multiple subs from different brands let me know. I read lots of reviews when I buy cars and consumer reports in particular. It just helps me narrow my scope of interest. That is the same logic with using James’ sub reviews.

Not sure what the successor to CEA2010 would be or if one is necessary. It is how the different subs compare under the same circumstances.

Buying one and setting it up in your home is way different. You have that whole “habituation thing” going on in which you may get used to distortion or even start to prefer the sound with the added distortion. Some speaker companies state their products need a “burn in“ period to take advantage of that resulting habituation.

What I like about James’ reviews is one person is repeating the same process with the same equipment backed up by measurements. It is like he is test driving it for me so I don’t have to waste my resources if he doesn’t find it meets standards.

 

[mj30250]

I shared my in-room measurements several months ago which were taken while using dual PSA TV2112Ms. I ended up liking them so much that I've since added two more. As I indicated then, I've had multiple brands of subs including Klipsch, Outlaw, Hsu, Neumann, Monolith, SVS, and PSA. I have absolutely no reason to be biased towards one brand or another beyond what sounds best in my space. I'm simply after the highest performing system for my dollar, in whatever form that takes.

I do agree that standardized ground plane testing of PSA's lineup would be awesome. I'll leave speculation as to why that has not happened (and may not happen) to others. All I know for certain is how they perform in my house, and that's...amazingly well.

I also agree that the pro audio drivers used in the majority of PSA's current offering are not purpose-built for ULF. That said, they do ULF significantly better than any other subs I've owned, reaching over 115dB at 10Hz with the two TV21s (on concrete, measured at the MLP 4 meters from the subs). With four TV21s, they sail to over 120dB at 10Hz without producing any audible distortion, compression, or mechanical-type noises whatsoever...well, all of the violent shaking of the house notwithstanding.

Here's a frequency sweep of the four subs at a somewhat spirited but still quite comfortable volume (not even remotely close to max), taken at the MLP, and the associated distortion measurements from REW:

Anyway, these subs are built for strong mid-bass punch, which they deliver in spades. But neither that nor their excellent ULF performance are my favorite aspect. Their performance with music reproduction at practically all volumes is their best feature to me. I've never had subs integrate with my main speakers so smoothly. It truly sounds like I'm listening to a completely integrated full-range system. They offer a dynamic range that shines from lower volumes all the way up to rattling my irritated wife three floors distant.

Here's an example scenario: I'm a drummer, and I often listen to drum demo videos on YouTube when I'm looking to audition a potentially new cymbal, snare, etc. I've listened to hundreds of these videos over the years across a few different systems/subs. I recall jumping into one of these videos for the first time while using the PSAs. I was simply listening for the cymbal being demo'd and was fully engaged with that purpose, I was not even thinking about how the subs might sound. So it was quite surprising when I suddenly stopped to consider how amazing the kick drum sounded while the video was playing. I'd never heard a drum kit reproduced with such accuracy. It's incredibly easy for kick drums or low-tuned toms to sound a bit boomy or slightly smeared, even on a great system. But now, no more excess boom - they just sound...right. The initial impact of the heads, the low-frequency resonance of the shells, even the tactile energy you'd get in a live kit is all there.

Like a few others here, I'm an objectivist first and foremost. I no longer purchase speakers for which sufficiently detailed anechoic measurements are not available. In a rare moment of "trusting the owner reviews", I took a chance on the PSA subs and am certainly glad I did. For those who continue to only trust objective data, I get it.