PSA subwoofers. I talked with Tom

[Matt34]

Yours is a hopeful posting.

There is no reason for PSA to not submit their subs for testing—other than they may not test well. And “who” gets into spats with “THE” only reviewer still doing ground plane CEA2010 measurements? Seems a poor judgement call.

Sure there is, no manufacturer is beholden to provide free product to a publication for review. Tom and company have been at this for decades and has in the past, had his subs externally tested. Obviously, he didn't find it all that beneficial.

 

[Golfx]

That doesn’t stop thousands of customers buying their subs and getting objective data IN THEIR OWN ROOM. PSA, Rythmik, JTR, DSS & Seaton Sound all make excellent products and provide a great value.


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All but PSA submitted their subs for testing.

In room testing comes with room gain and a healthy dose of confirmation bias.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

All but PSA submitted their subs for testing.

In room testing comes with room gain and a healthy dose of confirmation bias.

Just to play devils advocate here. Your statements are true. But you can’t measure confirmation bias with rew. I’ve seen more than a few sweeps illustrating “bias confirmation” though, so to speak. I’m also pretty sure Toms design work at svs is still in some of their last generation subs. I don’t have proof of that, but seem to remember that from other threads. It’s easy to get down on the guy for not sending out his subs for review. I for one would love to see some cea2010 numbers, and I do believe it would benefit the AV community overall.
BUT, at the end of the day his business model works for him, and he’s absolutely satisfied.

 

[Golfx]

Just to play devils advocate here. Your statements are true. But you can’t measure confirmation bias with rew. I’ve seen more than a few sweeps illustrating “bias confirmation” though, so to speak. I’m also pretty sure Toms design work at svs is still in some of their last generation subs. I don’t have proof of that, but seem to remember that from other threads. It’s easy to get down on the guy for not sending out his subs for review. I for one would love to see some cea2010 numbers, and I do believe it would benefit the AV community overall.
BUT, at the end of the day his business model works for him, and he’s absolutely satisfied.

Other manufacturers submit their products for review. I just want a basis for comparison other than popularity. His reluctance provides unnecessary doubt. Perhaps they will compete very well. We will apparently never know.

 

[shadyJ]

Other manufacturers submit their products for review. I just want a basis for comparison other than popularity. His reluctance provides unnecessary doubt. Perhaps they will compete very well. We will apparently never know.

His products probably perform well but they won't match what Josh Ricci managed to measure with the same drivers. Remember that Ricci was using an amp with nearly unlimited power. Those who use Ricci's measurements as a basis for PSA's products will be off the mark. We will never know by how much, of course.

 

[MarcG]

His products probably perform well but they won't match what Josh Ricci managed to measure with the same drivers. Remember that Ricci was using an amp with nearly unlimited power. Those who use Ricci's measurements as a basis for PSA's products will be off the mark. We will never know by how much, of course.

Hello James,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you compare the DIY dual opposed kit on data-bass which I believe uses identical drivers(21" ipal), less power(4000w vs 6000w) but a significantly larger cabinet(28%)wouldn't the PSA S42 Ipal actually perform better below 20hz given the 28% larger cabinet volume? The DIY kit does measure 3db higher JTR's older S2 below 20hz.

Would the larger cabinet(28%) or extra 2000w have more impact on sub 20hz ULF content?

 

[kini]

They don't get enough love/attention IMO. I know there's been a conflicts between Tom and the Audioholics crew but that shouldn't get in the way of the OBJECTIVE truth.

I'm personally considering a pair PSA S21 Ipal or maybe even a pair of S42 Ipal's as my end game. Living in Canada I can't really afford to be "trying out/Demo'ing" different subs. Also the S21/S42 dimensions have significantly higher WAF for a living room setup. I'd consider JTR if they made a dual opposed subwoofer.

Just take a look at the DIY Dual opposing B&C 21-Ipal with a smaller enclosure VS the PSA offering. It bested the FV18, FV25hp, JTR S2 and only 1dB from the vented Cap 2400's. I don't know why anyone would claim PSA subs can't do ULF unless there's personal vendetta going on here. I'm sure the S42 Ipal is very comparable to the JTR RS2 that gets constant praise, assuming the newer JTR drivers gains 3db that would put it on par with the 21 Ipal below 20hz, and who know's what output PSA gains with the larger cabinet vs this DIY kit.

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"my end game. Living in Canada" =Funk Audio/Harbottle! Not what is essentially a pre-built DIY sub.

I've said this before, the wrong drivers are being used. Sure they can and do produce ULF but at what amount of distortion? And they require a butt load of power to do it. Those drivers are all made for commercial large venue purposes. They're tuned to around 40hz.

The subs Josh tested in various levels of power and in a larger box than PSA uses didn't really out perform and Mononlith 16 by much, especially down low.

Do yourself a favor and just don't. Go with what I mentioned, then for sure you'll have no regrets.

 

[Danzilla31]

Hello James,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you compare the DIY dual opposed kit on data-bass which I believe uses identical drivers(21" ipal), less power(4000w vs 6000w) but a significantly larger cabinet(28%)wouldn't the PSA S42 Ipal actually perform better below 20hz given the 28% larger cabinet volume? The DIY kit does measure 3db higher JTR's older S2 below 20hz.

Would the larger cabinet(28%) or extra 2000w have more impact on sub 20hz ULF content?

I think your question is why some of us wish he would provide good reviewers who do legitimate testing his products to review

Without doing so we would never be able to really answer your questions. We could say theoretically it could. But we could never really know until someone would take his products out of the room and provide true outdoor testing.

I like Tom and I like PSA. I spoke to him when I was making decisions on which direction I should go with my theater room on new speakers and subs. But no matter how much I liked him I honestly couldn't feel okay with spending that amount of money without actual independent data telling me exactly what Im getting because that data helps me understand if these speakers and subs are the right fit for what I am trying to achieve out of the room I have to work with.

Which is ultimately why I went with a RBH and Rythmik combination.

Tom has said he doesn't want to submit subs and speakers for review because of issues he has with how some reviewers and consumers getting caught up in chasing certain numbers. That actually is a fair point.

And also that he doesn't need to because his products sell so well he doesn't have enough time to focus on that anyway and it's not necessary to help his sales. That's acceptable as well I'm happy for his success and I respect his honesty about his stance on this position.

BUT for some buyers including myself it matters. I agree with @Golfx that if he would do independent testing it would get rid of that particular elephant in the room. I just don't think Tom cares enough about independent testing for it to ever happen unfortunately. But I can accept that that is how he feels about this.

 

[Danzilla31]

"my end game. Living in Canada" =Funk Audio/Harbottle! Not what is essentially a pre-built DIY sub.

I've said this before, the wrong drivers are being used. Sure they can and do produce ULF but at what amount of distortion? And they require a butt load of power to do it. Those drivers are all made for commercial large venue purposes. They're tuned to around 40hz.

The subs Josh tested in various levels of power and in a larger box than PSA uses didn't really out perform and Mononlith 16 by much, especially down low.

Do yourself a favor and just don't. Go with what I mentioned, then for sure you'll have no regrets.

I experienced a friend's theater room that owns myltiple Harbottles. Those subs were amazing.

 

[ryanosaur]

I think your question is why some of us wish he would provide good reviewers who do legitimate testing his products to review

Without doing so we would never be able to really answer your questions. We could say theoretically it could. But we could never really know until someone would take his products out of the room and provide true outdoor testing.

I like Tom and I like PSA. I spoke to him when I was making decisions on which direction I should go with my theater room on new speakers and subs. But no matter how much I liked him I honestly couldn't feel okay with spending that amount of money without actual independent data telling me exactly what Im getting because that data helps me understand if these speakers and subs are the right fit for what I am trying to achieve out of the room I have to work with.

Which is ultimately why I went with a RBH and Rythmik combination.

Tom has said he doesn't want to submit subs and speakers for review because of issues he has with how some reviewers and consumers getting caught up in chasing certain numbers. That actually is a fair point.

And also that he doesn't need to because his products sell so well he doesn't have enough time to focus on that anyway and it's not necessary to help his sales. That's acceptable as well I'm happy for his success and I respect his honesty about his stance on this position.

BUT for some buyers including myself it matters. I agree with @Golfx that if he would do independent testing it would get rid of that particular elephant in the room. I just don't think Tom cares enough about independent testing for it to ever happen unfortunately. But I can accept that that is how he feels about this.

If we would ever just post Long Term Output Sweeps and Distortion measurements, that would resolve all questions. That he won't tells me that he knows they won't look good below 20Hz (maybe even higher).