PSA subwoofers. I talked with Tom

[ryanosaur]

So Funk/Harbottle provides full measurements these days? I just looked at the Harbottle tab on the Funk sub page and didn't see any...

No, there aren't. None that I've seen.
There are two Ridge Drivers that have been measured by Josh, and those are what Cody is calling his Drivers. Cody has also expressed willingness to have his stuff tested by a reputable 3rd party.

He and Nathan work "together," loosely, in that they share a space and philosophy. Cody is taking this forward pretty handily by all accounts.

I watching with great interest.

Other Harbottle owners are saying very nice things, and DIYers using his Drivers are likewise impressed. In the research I've done, the limiting factor seems to be Amp related and those that can supply a very clean 3000w per driver with a capacitance bank that won't wipe itself out on a single note seem to prove that his Drivers are the real thing.

(It seems that Nathan works toward the beautiful craftsmanship of a finished cabinet where Cody is focused more on the Driver Performance. Both are excellent product, and I don't think that what Nathan builds is in anyway limited by his focus on cabinetry.)

One last note: going back to the Data Bass review of the Ridge Drivers, Josh pretty much said that these things can handle a lot of power before showing signs of strain. 2" point to point was well within limits, and around 2.75" ptp is when they started showing signs of strain.
Cody has an Xmax guarantee and encourages modeling his drivers not just to Xmax, but to withing 2-3mm of Xmech instead. By doing this, he says you will be able to get the absolute most from the Driver based on what you can give it in terms of cabinet volume and power: all part of his overall philosophy.
He has posted some video tutorials about using his Range Method to model his Drivers, all within the parameters of his published guarantees.

I would love to see somebody get his gear and test it properly! I think it will be quite different from the status quo.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

If there was drama I think it was squashed long ago. Tom has kindoff mellowed out over the years I've noticed. He used to get into some spats on forums he's a lot chiller these days. He's always been super cool with his customers I had a great chat with him about some gear I was thinking about getting super great experience

As far as measurements Tom's not real big on reviews in the AVS forums you can hear him speak about it. He has his feelings about that. His products sell and he has a loyal customer base so it's not like he needs to put his stuff out they're.

i would like to see a couple reviews on his products just to see what the reviewers can verify that they can do but that's not Tom's thing It just is what it is I guess

The only review of a sub of his I ever saw was on Youthmans channel on YouTube. The sub was very impressive.

There was a huge beef years ago between Tom and our own speaker reviewer. Squashed? Not sure, but I believe it’s why he was banned at avs. I remember reading through it.
Fwiw, I’ve seen users in room measurements, and read a lot of anecdotal reports of how amazing PSA subs are. I take a few grains of salt with any anecdotes but I’ve seen plenty of former svs users that switched and couldn’t be happier. Of course nobody wants to admit that they “upgraded” if it was a lateral move. But some users had both brands at the same time, and some were gtg’s so… I’ve interacted with Tom a number of times and he’s always been very easy to talk to, and very smart. I also think his CS is pretty good too. In fact, I’d rather give him my money without measurements than pay for everyone else to use SVS’s CS. But really, I’d give it to Brian ding first. After building my devastators of course.

 

[lovinthehd]

PSA just may offer enough oomph above infrasonic for most to appreciate that more than the infrasonic those same people may not be as critical about? I think that goes for some subs in general, tho. Chasing infrasonics is hard, too. Mark Seaton never saw the need for his Submersives to be particularly tested....and mostly his customers didn't care.

 

[ryanosaur]

I forget where I saw it... might've been in the RedFive Devastator Index? on AVS... but most of the content people are chasing in movies like John Wick et al is around 30Hz. But with gobs of power. The kind of Power no Full Range Tower can deliver.
This is what the Devastators and other Subs with Pro Drivers do with great aplomb. Try pushing that too low, on the other hand...
Red Five (John) on AVS (not GSG John (aka LTD02)) has commented about this to great length. His Devastator designs have pushed the bounds, but every time he pushes one low, you can see the models and how their efficiency drops like a rock. Even the NSW doesn't want to be pushed below 20Hz without taking a serious hit to it's mid-bass efficiency. Tune that same driver to around 22Hz, and you can see some amazing and Devastating output above.

Not everything is infrasonic. It doesn't need to be. Even though LFE can be LOW doesn't mean LFE is only LOW. I tend to agree with those that think the Live, Die, Repeat 10Hz square wave was an accident. Too many devices just can't do it, and I don't think it was ever meant to be that way as most Cinema Subs are Pro Subs that aren't designed for that type of output.

Chasing infrasonics is expensive. It takes Space, Power, and Technology to all come together at once. These convergences are rare.

 

[vader540is]

I bought a few subs from HSU, Rythmik and PSA.

I used my Umik-1 and REW and measured. The PSA sub provided the best ULF and most output with compression sweeps IN MY ROOM.

I watched a bunch of my favorite movies as well.

I kept the PSA and sent the other two back.

Rythmik and HSU make amazing subs, but the PSA was a better value IMO and had more output and ULF IN MY ROOM.

Lol @ CEA 2010 data

Do you buy a car based on Specs? I don't. I test drive a car before i buy it... plenty of PSA REW data posted over on AVS, Reddit, discord and Facebook.

 

[lovinthehd]

I bought a few subs from HSU, Rythmik and PSA.

I used my Umik-1 and REW and measured. The PSA sub provided the best ULF and most output with compression sweeps IN MY ROOM.

I watched a bunch of my favorite movies as well.

I kept the PSA and sent the other two back.

Rythmik and HSU make amazing subs, but the PSA was a better value IMO and had more output and ULF IN MY ROOM.

Lol @ CEA 2010 data

Do you buy a car based on Specs? I don't. I test drive a car before i buy it... plenty of PSA REW data posted over on AVS, Reddit, discord and Facebook. View attachment 59313

That's a comparison of the measurements you took with the various subs to prove your point?

 

[vader540is]

Flew over your head.

 

[lovinthehd]

Flew over your head.

No, it just isn't much in the way of a demonstration of such.

 

[vader540is]

No, it just isn't much in the way of a demonstration of such.

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[digital911]

Tom V. doesn't seem to care. *shrugs
I've heard he claims to be busy enough with out any 3rd party proof. Which is a shame. A good 3rd party review to prove he's doing it right would be nice.

Here's the catch:
The Pro Woofers he's using, with a high Fs, require gobs of power to perform where he is counting on making his sales... which is down low. His Amps are apparently capable of performing down there, but there is no Compression Test offered on any of his gear, much less CEA-2010 Bursts or Distortion tests.
While some Pro Drivers can deliver (still lookin' at that Eminence NSW6021-6 as the benchmark for many DIYers) in many aspects, performance in Infrasonic territory is NOT their primary goal.
I have a strong suspicion that while PSA Subs can perform down low through brute force alone, it may not be a pretty picture. Our ears are not so sensitive to distortion down there.

I would much rather spend the money on a Harbottle Sub that is designed and built specifically to perform down to 5Hz than on a guy using Pro Drivers with a high Fs claiming his sh!t works down to 12-14Hz... WITH NO PROOF!

This industry is rife with people making claims about gear: "Step up and prove it," is all I have to say to the lot of them.

Until then, I say "shop Harbottle!"

100% agreed. I had pre orderd a TV2112 but canceled it after I found out he would not provide any measurements.
I know I should have checked before ordering. But I was going off people's recommendations, plus ordered the largest driver in a ported enclosure I could find because I have a fairly large room, but then I started digging deeper and something didn't feel right when I found out about lack of measurement data.
In my view it's put up or shut up.
Any way I changed the order to a Rhythmic FV18. Hoping to get some help from @Danzilla31 since he's running a similar processor to me. Would like some setup/calibration tips.

 

[Danzilla31]

100% agreed. I had pre orderd a TV2112 but canceled it after I found out he would not provide and measurements.
I now I should have checked before ordering. But I was going off people's recommendations but then I started digging deeper and something didn't feel right when I found out about lack of measurement data.
In my view it's put up or shut up.
Any way I changed the order to a Rhythmic FV18. Hoping to get some help from @Danzilla31 since he's running a similar processor to me.

Love to help bro I'll be sending you a PM as soon as I get off of my shift

 

[gene]

One of the reasons is probably that Tom isnt going to send over one of his units for free. As I gather he sells them as fast as he can make them so there is no reason to send one for review. So with that being said, who would pay for the item and what would happen to it after the review was done?

That's a poor business model to NOT be able to expand so you can fulfill orders and still have press samples for reviews. We honestly get very little requests to review PSA products and there are so many good brands out there that reach out to Audioholics wanting reviews so we prioritize companies like those. I've heard the same nonsense from other small companies like PSA. If that works for them, great, but I prefer to work with brands that are more outreached to the press and also support the community.

 

[digital911]

That's a poor business model to NOT be able to expand so you can fulfill orders and still have press samples for reviews. We honestly get very little requests to review PSA products and there are so many good brands out there that reach out to Audioholics wanting reviews so we prioritize companies like those. I've heard the same nonsense from other small companies like PSA. If that works for them, great, but I prefer to work with brands that are more outreached to the press and also support the community.

100%. All the excuses from that camp are BS. If the product could really perform against the best of the best you'd have samples and measurements would be posted.
Thing is I'm sure their products perform well for music as they use a pro driver. So why not market it that way rather than also being HT capable not not providing measurements and saying things like numbers don't prove how it sounds, just trust my congregation like they trust me.

 

[Danzilla31]

Aaaaaand here we GO!!!!

 

[mj30250]

Apologies for bumping a thread that's over a year old, but it showed up while I was searching for sub information so I figured I'd add some personal insights that are relevant to the topic.

I'm a big measurements guy, and tend to shy away from any audio equipment for which objective data is minimal, questionable, or absent entirely. I recently swapped from dual HSU VTF-3 MK5s to Monolith 15" V2s. The Monoliths were fantastic, but my curiosity got the better of me and, while keeping my fingers crossed, I ordered a pair of PSA TV2112Ms in an attempt to land on true "end game" subs.

For those concerned with their ULF performance, I am finding them to be excellent in that regard. Subjectively, they integrate with my mains at a level that I haven't experienced with prior subs. They are exceptionally pleasing for music and offer loads of dynamic range. They come alive with the lightest bass notes and reproduce them with a level of delicacy and finesse that I've not heard before. When fully woken up they're enough to create a true earthquake in my house, even when two floors up (just ask my wife). For those who are only interested in measurements, I've included an in-room frequency response and compression sweeps below. I am getting extension to under 9Hz in my room (the below plots start at 10Hz). I stopped after the top sweep as my UMIK-1 hit its factory limit and was clipping at that point. The subs remained clean with no unsettling noises other than the house sounding like it might fly apart, so I imagine that they still had more gas in the tank. Note that both subs are nearly 4 meters from the MLP and on a concrete slab. At that distance these subs manage to surpass 115dB at 10Hz. If this isn't enough low frequency output for you, PSA also offers an IPAL version (same cabinet) which includes a similar B&C driver with a larger motor, more excursion, as well as a more powerful amp. This should result in a 3-4dB increase in headroom sub-30Hz and beyond.

I have / have had several subs over the years, including Outlaw, Neumann, SVS, as well as the Hsus and Monoliths that I mentioned above. These PSAs offer the best performance out of any of them for both HT and music, and not by a small margin. For those who might be interested but worry over the lack of objective data, I'd suggest considering taking the leap. I am personally thrilled that I did. For those who want loads of unfettered ULF output from high-excursion drivers, yeah, sure, look at JTR, Harbottle, Funk, etc (at a much higher price point). For reasonably priced options that can deliver ridiculous SPL at practically all sub frequencies, PSA is certainly worth a look.

Frequency response after Audyssey XT32:

Compression sweeps (UMIK-1 clipping during the top sweep):

 

[vader540is]

Apologies for bumping a thread that's over a year old, but it showed up while I was searching for sub information so I figured I'd add some personal insights that are relevant to the topic.

I'm a big measurements guy, and tend to shy away from any audio equipment for which objective data is minimal, questionable, or absent entirely. I recently swapped from dual HSU VTF-3 MK5s to Monolith 15 V2s. The Monoliths were fantastic but my curiosity got the better of me and I ordered a pair of PSA TV2112Ms in an attempt to land on true "end game" subs.

For those concerned with their ULF performance, I am finding them to be excellent in this regard. Subjectively, they integrate with my mains at a level that I haven't experienced with prior subs. They are exceptionally pleasing for music and offer loads of dynamic range. They come alive with the lightest bass notes and reproduce them with a level of delicacy and finesse that I've not heard before. When woken up they're enough to create a true earthquake in my house, even when two floors up. For those who are just interested in measurements, I've included an in-room frequency response plot below. I am getting extension to under 9Hz in my room (the below plot starts at 10Hz). Below that are compression sweeps. I stopped after the top sweep as my UMIK-1 was clipping at that point. The subs remained clean with no unsettling noises other than the house sounding like it might fly apart. Note that both subs are nearly 4 meters from the MLP and on a concrete slab. At that distance these subs hit 115db at 10Hz. If this isn't enough low frequency output for you, PSA also offers an IPAL version (same cabinet) which includes a driver with a larger motor, more excursion, and a more powerful amp. This should result in a 3-4dB increase in headroom sub 30Hz and beyond.

I have / have had several subs over the years, including Outlaw, Neumann, SVS, as well as the Hsus and Monoliths I mentioned above. These PSAs offer the best performance out of any of them for both HT and music, and not by a small margin. For those who might be interested but worry over the lack of objective data, I'd suggest considering taking the leap. I am personally thrilled that I did. For those who want loads of unfettered ULF from high-excursion drivers, yeah, sure, look at JTR, Harbottle, Funk, etc (at a much higher price point). For a reasonably priced option that delivers ridiculous SPL at practically all sub frequencies, PSA is certainly worth a look.

Frequency response after Audyssey XT32:

View attachment 67285


Compression sweeps (UMIK-1 clipping during the top sweep):

View attachment 67286

Awesome! Congratulations! I was also on the fence when I was shopping for subs a long time ago. I just ordered a bunch took measurements with REW & my Umik1 and I kept the sub that sounded best to MY ears and it also happened to perform the best in MY room with objective data to back up. Everyone’s room is different so in home demos are very important to some buyers.


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[William Lemmerhirt]

Apologies for bumping a thread that's over a year old, but it showed up while I was searching for sub information so I figured I'd add some personal insights that are relevant to the topic.

I'm a big measurements guy, and tend to shy away from any audio equipment for which objective data is minimal, questionable, or absent entirely. I recently swapped from dual HSU VTF-3 MK5s to Monolith 15" V2s. The Monoliths were fantastic, but my curiosity got the better of me and, while keeping my fingers crossed, I ordered a pair of PSA TV2112Ms in an attempt to land on true "end game" subs.

For those concerned with their ULF performance, I am finding them to be excellent in that regard. Subjectively, they integrate with my mains at a level that I haven't experienced with prior subs. They are exceptionally pleasing for music and offer loads of dynamic range. They come alive with the lightest bass notes and reproduce them with a level of delicacy and finesse that I've not heard before. When fully woken up they're enough to create a true earthquake in my house, even when two floors up (just ask my wife). For those who are only interested in measurements, I've included an in-room frequency response and compression sweeps below. I am getting extension to under 9Hz in my room (the below plots start at 10Hz). I stopped after the top sweep as my UMIK-1 hit its factory limit and was clipping at that point. The subs remained clean with no unsettling noises other than the house sounding like it might fly apart, so I imagine that they still had more gas in the tank. Note that both subs are nearly 4 meters from the MLP and on a concrete slab. At that distance these subs manage to surpass 115dB at 10Hz. If this isn't enough low frequency output for you, PSA also offers an IPAL version (same cabinet) which includes a similar B&C driver with a larger motor, more excursion, as well as a more powerful amp. This should result in a 3-4dB increase in headroom sub-30Hz and beyond.

I have / have had several subs over the years, including Outlaw, Neumann, SVS, as well as the Hsus and Monoliths that I mentioned above. These PSAs offer the best performance out of any of them for both HT and music, and not by a small margin. For those who might be interested but worry over the lack of objective data, I'd suggest considering taking the leap. I am personally thrilled that I did. For those who want loads of unfettered ULF output from high-excursion drivers, yeah, sure, look at JTR, Harbottle, Funk, etc (at a much higher price point). For reasonably priced options that can deliver ridiculous SPL at practically all sub frequencies, PSA is certainly worth a look.

Frequency response after Audyssey XT32:

View attachment 67285


Compression sweeps (UMIK-1 clipping during the top sweep):

View attachment 67286

Excellent.

 

[MarcG]

Apologies for bumping a thread that's over a year old, but it showed up while I was searching for sub information so I figured I'd add some personal insights that are relevant to the topic.

I'm a big measurements guy, and tend to shy away from any audio equipment for which objective data is minimal, questionable, or absent entirely. I recently swapped from dual HSU VTF-3 MK5s to Monolith 15" V2s. The Monoliths were fantastic, but my curiosity got the better of me and, while keeping my fingers crossed, I ordered a pair of PSA TV2112Ms in an attempt to land on true "end game" subs.

For those concerned with their ULF performance, I am finding them to be excellent in that regard. Subjectively, they integrate with my mains at a level that I haven't experienced with prior subs. They are exceptionally pleasing for music and offer loads of dynamic range. They come alive with the lightest bass notes and reproduce them with a level of delicacy and finesse that I've not heard before. When fully woken up they're enough to create a true earthquake in my house, even when two floors up (just ask my wife). For those who are only interested in measurements, I've included an in-room frequency response and compression sweeps below. I am getting extension to under 9Hz in my room (the below plots start at 10Hz). I stopped after the top sweep as my UMIK-1 hit its factory limit and was clipping at that point. The subs remained clean with no unsettling noises other than the house sounding like it might fly apart, so I imagine that they still had more gas in the tank. Note that both subs are nearly 4 meters from the MLP and on a concrete slab. At that distance these subs manage to surpass 115dB at 10Hz. If this isn't enough low frequency output for you, PSA also offers an IPAL version (same cabinet) which includes a similar B&C driver with a larger motor, more excursion, as well as a more powerful amp. This should result in a 3-4dB increase in headroom sub-30Hz and beyond.

I have / have had several subs over the years, including Outlaw, Neumann, SVS, as well as the Hsus and Monoliths that I mentioned above. These PSAs offer the best performance out of any of them for both HT and music, and not by a small margin. For those who might be interested but worry over the lack of objective data, I'd suggest considering taking the leap. I am personally thrilled that I did. For those who want loads of unfettered ULF output from high-excursion drivers, yeah, sure, look at JTR, Harbottle, Funk, etc (at a much higher price point). For reasonably priced options that can deliver ridiculous SPL at practically all sub frequencies, PSA is certainly worth a look.

Frequency response after Audyssey XT32:

View attachment 67285


Compression sweeps (UMIK-1 clipping during the top sweep):

View attachment 67286

They don't get enough love/attention IMO. I know there's been a conflicts between Tom and the Audioholics crew but that shouldn't get in the way of the OBJECTIVE truth.

I'm personally considering a pair PSA S21 Ipal or maybe even a pair of S42 Ipal's as my end game. Living in Canada I can't really afford to be "trying out/Demo'ing" different subs. Also the S21/S42 dimensions have significantly higher WAF for a living room setup. I'd consider JTR if they made a dual opposed subwoofer.

Just take a look at the DIY Dual opposing B&C 21-Ipal with a smaller enclosure VS the PSA offering. It bested the FV18, FV25hp, JTR S2 and only 1dB from the vented Cap 2400's. I don't know why anyone would claim PSA subs can't do ULF unless there's personal vendetta going on here. I'm sure the S42 Ipal is very comparable to the JTR RS2 that gets constant praise, assuming the newer JTR drivers gains 3db that would put it on par with the 21 Ipal below 20hz, and who know's what output PSA gains with the larger cabinet vs this DIY kit.

 

[Golfx]

They don't get enough love/attention IMO. I know there's been a conflicts between Tom and the Audioholics crew but that shouldn't get in the way of the OBJECTIVE truth.

I'm personally considering a pair PSA S21 Ipal or maybe even a pair of S42 Ipal's as my end game. Living in Canada I can't really afford to be "trying out/Demo'ing" different subs. Also the S21/S42 dimensions have significantly higher WAF for a living room setup. I'd consider JTR if they made a dual opposed subwoofer.

Just take a look at the DIY Dual opposing B&C 21-Ipal with a smaller enclosure VS the PSA offering. It bested the FV18, FV25hp, JTR S2 and only 1dB from the vented Cap 2400's. I don't know why anyone would claim PSA subs can't do ULF unless there's personal vendetta going on here. I'm sure the S42 Ipal is very comparable to the JTR RS2 that gets constant praise, assuming the newer JTR drivers gains 3db that would put it on par with the 21 Ipal below 20hz, and who know's what output PSA gains with the larger cabinet vs this DIY kit.

View attachment 70557

View attachment 70558

Yours is a hopeful posting.

There is no reason for PSA to not submit their subs for testing—other than they may not test well. And “who” gets into spats with “THE” only reviewer still doing ground plane CEA2010 measurements? Seems a poor judgement call.

 

[vader540is]

That doesn’t stop thousands of customers buying their subs and getting objective data IN THEIR OWN ROOM. PSA, Rythmik, JTR, DSS & Seaton Sound all make excellent products and provide a great value.


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