Onkyo Tx-Rz50 vs Denon X3800H

[lovinthehd]

You could also just play with this to see just where you can detect thd? https://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_thd.php

 

[PENG]

I wonder @ PENG what would it take to have speakers measure with SINAD of 100db? Maybe 100 years from now they will have figured it out. What would that even sound like though? Would we even notice?

Passive speakers shouldn't have audible noise, so THD measurement is good enough. I have never seen measurements that show a speaker that can do better than -65 dB THD under any meaningful test condition. 100 years is a long time, I guess it might be possible.

 

[gene]

@PENG, too lazy to dig through this thread but to respond to 2 points:
1. D&M means D*M Holdings to me whom used to own Denon/Marantz before Sound United acquired them. I didn't even realize you were using that abbreviation to mean Denon/Marantz. LOL
2. I feel the gear I reviewed that sounded best typically used Burr Brown DAC's. They incidentally usually produced the best SNR measurements on my test bench. I could also be a victim of confirmation bias knowing how good the stuff measured and how I perceived the fidelity.

anyways, carry on.

 

[Trell]

D&M means D*M Holdings to me whom used to own Denon/Marantz before Sound United acquired them. I didn't even realize you were using that abbreviation to mean Denon/Marantz. LOL

I use D&M in the same way and I guess that is quite common.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That would be great, but I would like to know which one, so I can buy one lol..

Be sure to look for graphs (pasted from Audiosciencereview.com) like the following:

View attachment 59163

View attachment 59164

View attachment 59165

I don't want something like this, though if it cost $200 I would be okay with it.

View attachment 59166

Here was a cheap Yamaha AVR with THD+N of 0.02% and SNR was about 111dBA:

Yamaha RX-V377 AV Receiver Test Bench

0.1% THD 1.0% THD 2 Channels Continuously Driven, 8 ohm loads 70.9 watts 86.0 watts 2 Channels Continuously Driven, 4 ohm loads 85.9 watts 112.3 watts 5 Channels Continuously Driven, 8 ohm loads 41.2 watts 41.8 watts Analog frequency response in Stereo mode: –0.34 dB at 10 Hz –0.11 dB at 20 Hz...

www.soundandvision.com

 

[Rylan]

Just fired up the first receivers test, the RZ50. My speakers are all in their places and everything looks right. I tried starting Dirac, the mic is hooked up, it played pink noise on each 5 speakers, but as soon as it got to the RSL speedwoofer, I heard it play noise for a second, and then error code: DU3 comes on. I First tried running it in 2.1, then I tried in 5.1. Same error both times. I have the power switch on my sub on, my cable is plugged into the the “LFE in” on my sub, and the Crossover dial is turned hard left so it clicks to put it into the LFE position. I have my volume knob set at 12 o’clock. The error code is not allowing me to do the calibration and I can’t figure it out

 

[lovinthehd]

Just fired up the first receivers test, the RZ50. My speakers are all in their places and everything looks right. I tried starting Dirac, the mic is hooked up, it played pink noise on each 5 speakers, but as soon as it got to the RSL speedwoofer, I heard it play noise for a second, and then error code: DU3 comes on. I First tried running it in 2.1, then I tried in 5.1. Same error both times. I have the power switch on my sub on, my cable is plugged into the the “LFE in” on my sub, and the Crossover dial is turned hard left so it clicks to put it into the LFE position. I have my volume knob set at 12 o’clock. The error code is not allowing me to do the calibration and I can’t figure it out

Might want to check in here? https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/the-new-onkyo-rz50.122659/

 

[Rylan]

Might want to check in here? https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/the-new-onkyo-rz50.122659/

Thank you. I did get the AccuEQ room calibration to work. Until I can figure out the error code with Dirac, if I use AutoEQ for now, how well does that work? I did 6 different listening positions at 3ft height all within 20” from each other

 

[Rylan]

Here are my results

Crossover
Front is 40hz
Center is 40hz
Surround is 50 hz
And LPF of LFE is 120 hz

Distance
Front left 12.9 ft
Center 11.9 ft
Front right 12.9 ft
Surround left 8.5 ft
Surround right 8.5 ft
Subwoofer 13.6 ft

level calibration
Front left +2.0
Center +2.0
Front right +2.0
Surround left +1.5
Surround right +3.0
Subwoofer minus -3.5

All my speakers are toed in.

What changes should I make? Change the sub to 80Hz correct??

 

[Danzilla31]

Here are my results

Crossover
Front is 40hz
Center is 40hz
Surround is 50 hz
And LPF of LFE is 120 hz

Distance
Front left 12.9 ft
Center 11.9 ft
Front right 12.9 ft
Surround left 8.5 ft
Surround right 8.5 ft
Subwoofer 13.6 ft

level calibration
Front left +2.0
Center +2.0
Front right +2.0
Surround left +1.5
Surround right +3.0
Subwoofer minus -3.5

All my speakers are toed in.

What changes should I make? Change the sub to 80Hz correct??

How big are your RSL speakers?

Your using RSL speakers correct? That crossover is way to low for those speakers if you are

 

[Danzilla31]

Here are my results

Crossover
Front is 40hz
Center is 40hz
Surround is 50 hz
And LPF of LFE is 120 hz

Distance
Front left 12.9 ft
Center 11.9 ft
Front right 12.9 ft
Surround left 8.5 ft
Surround right 8.5 ft
Subwoofer 13.6 ft

level calibration
Front left +2.0
Center +2.0
Front right +2.0
Surround left +1.5
Surround right +3.0
Subwoofer minus -3.5

All my speakers are toed in.

What changes should I make? Change the sub to 80Hz correct??

Don't ever touch the LPF of LFE always keep that at 120hz

 

[lovinthehd]

Thank you. I did get the AccuEQ room calibration to work. Until I can figure out the error code with Dirac, if I use AutoEQ for now, how well does that work? I did 6 different listening positions at 3ft height all within 20” from each other

AccuEQ has not gotten very good remarks that I've seen.....my Onkyo is old enough it has Audyssey so no personal experience.

 

[lovinthehd]

Here are my results

Crossover
Front is 40hz
Center is 40hz
Surround is 50 hz
And LPF of LFE is 120 hz

Distance
Front left 12.9 ft
Center 11.9 ft
Front right 12.9 ft
Surround left 8.5 ft
Surround right 8.5 ft
Subwoofer 13.6 ft

level calibration
Front left +2.0
Center +2.0
Front right +2.0
Surround left +1.5
Surround right +3.0
Subwoofer minus -3.5

All my speakers are toed in.

What changes should I make? Change the sub to 80Hz correct??

Of those perhaps I'd up the crossovers to 80 as a starting point.

Change the sub? You mean the low pass filter on the sub itself? That should be maxed out. If you mean LPF of LFE its fine at 120, the normal setting.

 

[Rylan]

Yes I’m using all RSL Speakers. I’m using the CG23’s for the LCR and the CG3s for the two surrounds.

CG23M 5.1 Home Theater Speaker System - RSL Speakers

rslspeakers.com

(I have their 4 Atmos but I’m not able to test those out until I can cut holes in the ceiling)

Thanks for the feedback, I will change all of the speakers except for the sub, to 80 Hz. I will leave the sub alone at 120 Hz. I thought I read something in the manual or saw something online about setting the sub for 80 Hz to 120 Hz, but maybe I was mistaken. I’m still trying to learn as I go and this is why I ask so many questions.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes I’m using all RSL Speakers. I’m using the CG23’s for the LCR and the CG3s for the two surrounds.

CG23M 5.1 Home Theater Speaker System - RSL Speakers

rslspeakers.com

(I have their 4 Atmos but I’m not able to test those out until I can cut holes in the ceiling)

Thanks for the feedback, I will change all of the speakers except for the sub, to 80 Hz. I will leave the sub alone at 120 Hz. I thought I read something in the manual or saw something online about setting the sub for 80 Hz to 120 Hz, but maybe I was mistaken. I’m still trying to learn as I go and this is why I ask so many questions.

The LPF of LFE is just a limit on the LFE channel content (.1 in recordings that have that channel), it's not for the sub in general. A crossover is just that between speaker/sub, and covered by the avr crossover setting for the various speakers/channels.

 

[-Jim-]

Thank you. I did get the AccuEQ room calibration to work. Until I can figure out the error code with Dirac, if I use AutoEQ for now, how well does that work? I did 6 different listening positions at 3ft height all within 20” from each other

At 3 Feet ? When you sit down on a chair and listen to your system, how high is your ear from the floor? If I remember I'm about 43 inches. I hope your bed speakers are at ear level.

 

[dlaloum]

Passive speakers shouldn't have audible noise, so THD measurement is good enough. I have never seen measurements that show a speaker that can do better than -65 dB THD under any meaningful test condition. 100 years is a long time, I guess it might be possible.

The best speakers for THD... tend to have other constraints...

eg: Electrostatics - superb in terms of THD... which results in an ability to portray micro-detail superbly (yes I am biased, I do love stats!) - but then you get to an orchestral crescendo, or you play some "enthusiastic" rock... and the dynamic / SPL constraints can cause an issue (depending on what SPL you like to listen at).

Still, the setup I was happiest with, now sadly gone on the altar of domestic harmony, was an all electrostatic 4.1 setup (I was planning on adding another stat for center, but never got around to it). Quad ESL63's for surround, Quad ESL989 for fronts. - It was pretty awesome.

I do like my current Gallo's - but am aware that they don't quite match the stats... a compromise I have accepted - on the other hand they are capable of higher SPL's given an appropriate amp. - So I am accepting the deterioration in THD as part of my trade off. (when I first got the Gallo's I did do back to back comparisons).

And yes - I do look at the THD / SINAD of electronics before purchasing in some detail, but ultimately, am very aware, that the speakers will impose a greater THD in any case!

I have also done quite a few amplifier comparisons over the last 15 years in my search for optimisation ... and as long as the amp is running within its performance envelope... (ie: it can handle the speakers properly and can produce the needed SPL's into that set of speakers) - I have heard no substantiable difference between 60db SINAD and 80+db SINAD. In other words, at times there were what I perceived as differences, but they were not sufficiently consistent to be statistically significant - and might well have been confirmation biases.
Yes a little Tripath TA2020 chip amp, did sound worst...rated 13W @ 8ohm 10% THD (!).
It was also surprisingly OK at lower volumes... 0.03% THD 5W 8ohm...

So my expectation is minimum electronics SINAD = 60db... and I am unlikely to purchase anything with a SINAD below 70db.

Above 70db... other factors dominate... (it's also about value for money too - and achieving the best possible performance within a given budget - beyond a certain point pushing for more SINAD simply escalates the price, with little or no impact on audible performance!)

 

[Rylan]

I have a laser tape measure and I’ve checked everything very precisely and have very accurate measurements. I’m exactly 3 feet from ear level to floor When in my seated position. I have my front left and right tweeter at exactly 3 feet and currently at 22° From 0° line. So the left and right are 44° apart from each other. I may try 60° apart in a couple weeks. My Center speaker is as high as I can put it which is 30 inches off my floor before it hits the bottom of my TV, but I did angle it and used my laser pointer so it’s pointing at exactly 3 feet when I’m in my seated position. My surrounds are at 110° and the tweeter is at 3’9” from the ground.

 

[lovinthehd]

I have a laser tape measure and I’ve checked everything very precisely and have very accurate measurements. I’m exactly 3 feet from ear level to floor When in my seated position. I have my front left and right tweeter at exactly 3 feet and currently at 22° From 0° line. So the left and right are 44° apart from each other. I may try 60° apart in a couple weeks. My Center speaker is as high as I can put it which is 30 inches off my floor before it hits the bottom of my TV, but I did angle it and used my laser pointer so it’s pointing at exactly 3 feet when I’m in my seated position. My surrounds are at 110° and the tweeter is at 3’9” from the ground.

Keep in mind that the "distance" readout is more a translation to distance based on speed of sound (i.e. delay); acoustical properties rather than just physical distance can play a role, too. You can angle center up towards your listening position, too.

 

[-Jim-]

I have a laser tape measure and I’ve checked everything very precisely and have very accurate measurements. I’m exactly 3 feet from ear level to floor When in my seated position. I have my front left and right tweeter at exactly 3 feet and currently at 22° From 0° line. So the left and right are 44° apart from each other. I may try 60° apart in a couple weeks. My Center speaker is as high as I can put it which is 30 inches off my floor before it hits the bottom of my TV, but I did angle it and used my laser pointer so it’s pointing at exactly 3 feet when I’m in my seated position. My surrounds are at 110° and the tweeter is at 3’9” from the ground.

Looks like you've got it sorted.