Onkyo Tx-Rz50 vs Denon X3800H

[PENG]

Let’s put it this way - would the X3700 sound any better than the X3800 at all?

Depends on who you ask and/or listen to. If you read A.Robinson's review you may believe that but I bet you won't believe him on that part.

 

[dlaloum]

If the nannies were called in at 35 W into 4 ohms in that test, something wasn't right. Poor design generally, or something else that scared them? You are the right who emphasized the important of current capacity, if I remember right.

Regardless, take a look of the 5 W distortions, okay 70 dB is not audible to most, but it just doesn't look good when it's 15 to almost 20 dB higher than Denon and Marantz's.

View attachment 59148

Like I said - AVR was not happy with my 4 ohm speakers! (did not sound good)

But as a preamp, powering those brutal 1200W @ 2ohm Crown amps? - Wonderful!

And as a bonus, it has no trouble powering my surrounds (presumably there is plenty of power supply for that task, given the mains have been taken off it!)

 

[dlaloum]

Let’s put it this way - would the X3700 sound any better than the X3800 at all?

I doubt it would sound any different...

Exception being Auro3D - which is absent on the X3700... and possibly, any changes they have made to processing parameters.

 

[PENG]

I will say this again, THD of an amp is not a constant number! It will vary with frequency, input voltage level, output voltage level, dsp, rc, load impedance and other factors.

If given a typical single number such as, 0.05%, 1 kHz signal at 2 V preout, we cannot say the device (preamp in this case) has distortions well below the threshold of audibility.

We need to look at the details, including graphs that show the dependencies mentioned.

However, it may be fair to assume that if that single number is 0.001%, that is 100 dB SINAD, then even under the worst conditions, it would not likely drop below 70 dB, though there are always going to be exceptions.

 

[Trell]

Let’s put it this way - would the X3700 sound any better than the X3800 at all?

Probably not, but I've never claimed that either.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Probably not, but I've never claimed that either.

My mind has been so busy lately, I couldn't remember.

You know the say "If it's too loud, you're probably too old"?

I think there's another one - "If you don't care that much about SINAD, you're probably too old".

Back in the days when I was young, I used to care about every spec, especially THD+ and SNR. I also owned all separates + amps.

Now that I'm older, I tend to care a lot less about a lot of things.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I will say this again, THD of an amp is not a constant number! It will vary with frequency, input voltage level, output voltage level, dsp, rc, load impedance and other factors.

If given a typical single number such as, 0.05%, 1 kHz signal at 2 V preout, we cannot say the device (preamp in this case) has distortions well below the threshold of audibility.

We need to look at the details, including graphs that show the dependencies mentioned.

However, it may be fair to assume that if that single number is 0.001%, that is 100 dB SINAD, then even under the worst conditions, it would not likely drop below 70 dB, though there are always going to be exceptions.

If people’s comfort zone is a SINAD of 100dB or more, then that’s what they want. I probably should not argue about it.

Just like if people want a processor or Integrated Amp or whatever, instead of an AVR, then that’s what they want.

We want what we want.

Another thing, what is the typical THD of loudspeakers? Say something like Revel Salon2 or KEF Reference? Compare to the THD of AVR/AVP?

SoundStage! Measurements - Revel Ultima Salon2 Loudspeakers (12/2009)

SoundStage! Measurements - KEF Reference 201/2 Loudspeakers (12/2007)

Average THD+N at 90dB Volume is 88-92dB, so say 90dB average. Is this equivalent to SINAD of 90dB?

 

[dlaloum]

If people’s comfort zone is a SINAD of 100dB or more, then that’s what they want. I probably should not argue about it.

Just like if people want a processor or Integrated Amp or whatever, instead of an AVR, then that’s what they want.

We want what we want.

Another thing, what is the typical THD of loudspeakers? Say something like Revel Salon2 or KEF Reference? Compare to the THD of AVR/AVP?

SoundStage! Measurements - Revel Ultima Salon2 Loudspeakers (12/2009)

SoundStage! Measurements - KEF Reference 201/2 Loudspeakers (12/2007)

Average THD+N at 90dB Volume is 88-92dB, so say 90dB average. Is this equivalent to SINAD of 90dB?

Hmmm no - if you look at a 90db signal with THD at 45db you have SINAD at something more like 45db

If you go for things like ESL's -among the lowest distortion speaker type there is... 0.1% above 100Hz, and up to 0.3% below 100Hz... that is SINAD of 60db and 50db respectively - and that's for speakers known to be among the very lowest distortion speakers you can get...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hmmm no - if you look at a 90db signal with THD at 45db you have SINAD at something more like 45db

If you go for things like ESL's -among the lowest distortion speaker type there is... 0.1% above 100Hz, and up to 0.3% below 100Hz... that is SINAD of 60db and 50db respectively - and that's for speakers known to be among the very lowest distortion speakers you can get...

Wow, so if the speakers have a SINAD of 50dB, what’s the point of an AVR with a SINAD of 100dB?

Just saying………

Does ASR measure SINAD for loudspeakers?

But……. We want what we want, so I should not argue about what SINAD is good enough for anyone.

 

[PENG]

If people’s comfort zone is a SINAD of 100dB or more, then that’s what they want. I probably should not argue about it.

Just like if people want a processor or Integrated Amp or whatever, instead of an AVR, then that’s what they want.

We want what we want.

Another thing, what is the typical THD of loudspeakers? Say something like Revel Salon2 or KEF Reference? Compare to the THD of AVR/AVP?

SoundStage! Measurements - Revel Ultima Salon2 Loudspeakers (12/2009)

SoundStage! Measurements - KEF Reference 201/2 Loudspeakers (12/2007)

Average THD+N at 90dB Volume is 88-92dB, so say 90dB average. Is this equivalent to SINAD of 90dB?

Agreed, but I hope you did not miss my point in my sentence or took it out of context. Again, I think we agreed before, that loudspeakers, among others, are the real bottleneck in most cases, not SINAD of good separates or even midrange AVRs.

The sentence I referred to:

However, it may be fair to assume that if that single number is 0.001%, that is 100 dB SINAD, then even under the worst conditions, it would not likely drop below 70 dB, though there are always going to be exceptions.

Key word: "single", "worst", "70 dB"

My suggestion is, for a lot of home HT people, it wouldn't hurt to aim for 100 dB if they only have time to read the the typical S&V (that is no more) THD measurements. For those who have time to read the likes of Gene's, Amir's, hometheaterhifi's, Stereophile's and Soundstagenetwork's where, in the fine print, they may find that 100 dB goal would most likely ensure they would land in the neighborhood of 70 dB for real world music listening. I picked 100 dB just to be on the reasonably safe side, again, when only one single number for the typical THD at 1 kHz number is given.

 

[PENG]

Wow, so if the speakers have a SINAD of 50dB, what’s the point of an AVR with a SINAD of 100dB?

Just saying………

That is a tough question to answer, and there aren't too many, or any articles that authoritatively addressed the related topics. It may be because it is mostly related to a hobby type of thing, if it was medically related, life and death kind of deal, the mystery would have been solved by scientists and engineers.

Does ASR measure SINAD for loudspeakers?

I don't remember seeing any, but it might have, in the reviews of active speakers. For passive one, SINAD should be irrelevant because of the noise part, so you will typically see THD measurements, not SINAD that is THD+N combined.

But……. We want what we want, so I should not argue about what SINAD is good enough for anyone.

All else being equal (unfortunately all else usually are not equal) basis, I would want the lowest possible THD+N because then I don't have to worry about things like: does the devices have low THD, but the harmonics are of high order?, would that 0.08% THD+N audible?, how about the % during those 20 dB peaks in music, how about the % being higher in high frequencies, affecting the sound quality of my favorite instruments (Instrument-Sound-EQ-Chart.pdf (guitarbuilding.org) etc.

Is 70 dB good enough, to me it is, as long as it is+ for the worst case scenario.

It may be possible that, in pursuance of the lowest possible THD+N, and extended FR into the ultrasonic range, an amplifier manufacturer might have introduced another issue that could be more relevant to perceived sound quality for real world applications. That is hard to know, that's why I like to qualify my points with the "all else being equal" catch all phase. You are right, we want what we want, and I would add that sometimes we don't know what we want, even when we think we do.

 

[PENG]

Talking about ASR, there is a 9 page thread on this topic:
Instrument-Sound-EQ-Chart.pdf (guitarbuilding.org)

and this post shows Amir seem to feel the same with agreed with ADTG, on one point.

Distortion in loudspeakers | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

He said:

THD unfortunately is not psychoacoustically very relevant so hard to draw audibility inferences there.

I like the fact that he used the qualifying words "very", and the "hard". It would have been wrong without that word. Same idea when people say THD+N/SINAD is not a good indicator of sound quality, you need the key word "good", that's the minimum caveat that needs to be included in such statements.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That is a tough question to answer, and there aren't too many, or any articles that authoritatively addressed the related topics. It may be because it is mostly related to a hobby type of thing, if it was medically related, life and death kind of deal, the mystery would have been solved by scientists and engineers.



I don't remember seeing any, but it might have, in the reviews of active speakers. For passive one, SINAD should be irrelevant because of the noise part, so you will typically see THD measurements, not SINAD that is THD+N combined.



All else being equal (unfortunately all else usually are not equal) basis, I would want the lowest possible THD+N because then I don't have to worry about things like: does the devices have low THD, but the harmonics are of high order?, would that 0.08% THD+N audible?, how about the % during those 20 dB peaks in music, how about the % being higher in high frequencies, affecting the sound quality of my favorite instruments (Instrument-Sound-EQ-Chart.pdf (guitarbuilding.org) etc.

Is 70 dB good enough, to me it is, as long as it is+ for the worst case scenario.

It may be possible that, in pursuance of the lowest possible THD+N, and extended FR into the ultrasonic range, an amplifier manufacturer might have introduced another issue that could be more relevant to perceived sound quality for real world applications. That is hard to know, that's why I like to qualify my points with the "all else being equal" catch all phase. You are right, we want what we want, and I would add that sometimes we don't know what we want, even when we think we do.

We want high quality components that sound great, measure great, look great and have a great pride of ownership.

I would hate to own something and see everyone else bash the heck out of it repeatedly.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Talking about ASR, there is a 9 page thread on this topic:
Instrument-Sound-EQ-Chart.pdf (guitarbuilding.org)

and this post shows Amir seem to feel the same with agreed with ADTG, on one point.

Distortion in loudspeakers | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

He said:


I like the fact that he used the qualifying words "very", and the "hard". It would have been wrong without that word. Same idea when people say THD+N/SINAD is not a good indicator of sound quality, you need the key word "good", that's the minimum caveat that needs to be included in such statements.

Well, I would say that SINAD/THD+N is “good” factor for sound quality, but it’s not the SALIENT overall factor for ME PERSONALLY.

Personally the salient overall factors for me would be warranty, customer support, reliability, heat, features and cost.

But again, everyone has a different set of goals and I shouldn’t tell people what their goals should be.

 

[Danzilla31]

Talking about ASR, there is a 9 page thread on this topic:
Instrument-Sound-EQ-Chart.pdf (guitarbuilding.org)

and this post shows Amir seem to feel the same with agreed with ADTG, on one point.

Distortion in loudspeakers | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

He said:


I like the fact that he used the qualifying words "very", and the "hard". It would have been wrong without that word. Same idea when people say THD+N/SINAD is not a good indicator of sound quality, you need the key word "good", that's the minimum caveat that needs to be included in such statements.

I wonder @ PENG what would it take to have speakers measure with SINAD of 100db? Maybe 100 years from now they will have figured it out. What would that even sound like though? Would we even notice?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If the nannies were called in at 35 W into 4 ohms in that test, something wasn't right. Poor design generally, or something else that scared them? You are the right who emphasized the important of current capacity, if I remember right.

Regardless, take a look of the 5 W distortions, okay 70 dB is not audible to most, but it just doesn't look good when it's 15 to almost 20 dB higher than Denon and Marantz's.

View attachment 59148

THD+N of 0.03%/ SINAD 70dB would be like a $200 AVR to me.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I wonder @ PENG what would it take to have speakers measure with SINAD of 100db? Maybe 100 years from now they will have figured it out. What would that even sound like though? Would we even notice?

We won’t notice if the movie is playing at 90+ dB or the air conditioner or heater is on.

But we want what we want.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Agreed, but I hope you did not miss my point in my sentence or took it out of context. Again, I think we agreed before, that loudspeakers, among others, are the real bottleneck in most cases, not SINAD of good separates or even midrange AVRs.

The sentence I referred to:



Key word: "single", "worst", "70 dB"

My suggestion is, for a lot of home HT people, it wouldn't hurt to aim for 100 dB if they only have time to read the the typical S&V (that is no more) THD measurements. For those who have time to read the likes of Gene's, Amir's, hometheaterhifi's, Stereophile's and Soundstagenetwork's where, in the fine print, they may find that 100 dB goal would most likely ensure they would land in the neighborhood of 70 dB for real world music listening. I picked 100 dB just to be on the reasonably safe side, again, when only one single number for the typical THD at 1 kHz number is given.

You’re right. In this day and age of high tech, let’s aim for THD+N of 0.001%.

 

[PENG]

THD+N of 0.03%/ SINAD 70dB would be like a $200 AVR to me.

That would be great, but I would like to know which one, so I can buy one lol..

Be sure to look for graphs (pasted from Audiosciencereview.com) like the following:

I don't want something like this, though if it cost $200 I would be okay with it.

 

[PENG]

You’re right. In this day and age of high tech, let’s aim for THD+N of 0.001%.

Most people know their kids can live well enough working as a high school teacher but we probably would like them to aim to become a full professor at Harvard before the age of 40.