Onkyo Tx-Rz50 vs Denon X3800H

[lovinthehd]

Onkyo - the parent company - did not go bankrupt...

a couple of subsidiaries, specialising in OEM custom manufacturing and Japanese custom installations respectively, went bankrupt.

Onkyo meanwhile sold the rights to Onkyo / Integra / Pioneer to a consortium formed by Voxx (USA) 75% and Sharp 25% (Premium Audio Company)- Voxx handles sales and distribution, and Sharp runs the Malaysian factory.

So if looking to the health of Onkyo, you should look to the health of PAC, Voxx and Sharp.

(If they go belly up, the rights would return to Onky Japan in any case)

So lets avoid the unnecessary (and downright wrong/misinformed) FUD. (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt).

I did see Onkyo Japan in financial stress....how did that get resolved?

 

[dlaloum]

That site is good for quick comparison to come up with a short list, but if you are careful enough to come here and ask questions before you made your final decision, you should actually compare manufacturers product info sheets and owner's manuals.

It scored the Onkyo higher on the power amp section because apparently they simply compare their advertised specs without looking at the output power a the specified conditions.

For those two you can actually compare their objective measurements:

Note that the RZ-50 did much worse than the Denon with 4 ohm test resistor load. It's pream/dac section seemed fine.

Onkyo TX-RZ50 Review (Home Theater AVR) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Onkyo:

View attachment 59081

Denon:

View attachment 59082

Note: the test clearly identified that the RZ50 has an overly sensitive Amp protection circuit... AKA "Nanny Circuit"

In actual use, I have never heard anyone reporting the activation of the protection on their AVR.

I have the less powerful baby brother AVR, and when connected to my "nominally" 4 ohm speakers, it did not sound great (it needed a lot more oomp, which has been provided by my external amps... not surprising given my speakers go down to 1.6ohm) - but at no stage did the protective "Nanny Circuit" kick in.

So yeah - the RZ50 failed this test, on a lab test bench - however I would refer to its performance before the nanny circuit kicked in, for a real life indication of capabilities, as I have never encountered anyone who has had the nanny circuit activate in real life - even with torture level low impedance speakers like mine!

 

[dlaloum]

I did see Onkyo Japan in financial stress....how did that get resolved?

The two divisions that went bankrupt were both Japanese subsidiaries of the Onkyo parent company - so both were "Onkyo Japan"

You would need to get very specific as to which "Onkyo Japan" you were talking about!

 

[lovinthehd]

Note: the test clearly identified that the RZ50 has an overly sensitive Amp protection circuit... AKA "Nanny Circuit"

In actual use, I have never heard anyone reporting the activation of the protection on their AVR.

I have the less powerful baby brother AVR, and when connected to my "nominally" 4 ohm speakers, it did not sound great (it needed a lot more oomp, which has been provided by my external amps... not surprising given my speakers go down to 1.6ohm) - but at no stage did the protective "Nanny Circuit" kick in.

So yeah - the RZ50 failed this test, on a lab test bench - however I would refer to its performance before the nanny circuit kicked in, for a real life indication of capabilities, as I have never encountered anyone who has had the nanny circuit activate in real life - even with torture level low impedance speakers like mine!

My question is why have such speakers to begin with?

 

[lovinthehd]

The two divisions that went bankrupt were both Japanese subsidiaries of the Onkyo parent company - so both were "Onkyo Japan"

You would need to get very specific as to which "Onkyo Japan" you were talking about!

Ah, thought it was the main company that had filed also....

 

[lovinthehd]

Was thinking of stories like this beyond the story of the two divisions that did.... https://www.forbes.com/sites/marksparrow/2022/05/14/classic-japanese-audio-brand-onkyo-finally-files-for-bankruptcy/?sh=274d73986f1c

 

[dlaloum]

After looking at the links you provided and reading that last Audio Science Review on the Onkyo RZ50, I also looked up their review on the Denon x3800h. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x3800h-review.38574/

They do not recommend either AVR . I thought I had narrowed down my pick to one of these two, but now I’m feeling even more unsure of what AVR after doing the reading. I think A big part from me is the fact that I’m spending that much money on an AVR, I want to make sure it’s what I need. Maybe I’m getting to the point where I’m overthinking everything and expecting too much

There is a bit of a focus on some threads, on comparing SINAD figures...

And today's "State of the Art" SINAD is 110db+

Having said that - there are plenty of very highly regarded audiophile products that have only ever been specified as 0.03% THD+N (that amounts to SINAD = -70db)

Roughly speaking, the threshold of audibility - the point where the difference becomes noticeable is well below 0.1% THD (SINAD= -60db), and most speakers struggle to achieve 1% THD (really good ones may get to 0.5% THD)

So you can safely say that anything with over 70db SINAD is going to be fine.

This is not to say that SINAD should be ignored, it does give a good indication of the care taken in the design and manufacturing of a product... and more is definitely better!

But beyond a certain point (and 70db SINAD is already beyond that point) the SINAD becomes academic.

There are plenty of other variables that one should focus on - the X3700/X3800/RZ50/DRX3.4/LX505 all will sound effectively identical given a raw feed - the difference is likely to bein decoder settings and RoomEQ processing

 

[dlaloum]

Was thinking of stories like this beyond the story of the two divisions that did.... https://www.forbes.com/sites/marksparrow/2022/05/14/classic-japanese-audio-brand-onkyo-finally-files-for-bankruptcy/?sh=274d73986f1c

That one is news to me - I missed it!

So who are Voxx/Sharp (PAC) paying their licencing fees to for Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra?

Also what does "Bankruptcy" mean under the Japanese legal system?
(In the UK and Australia, Bankruptcy means the company is wound up, under the American system it continues trading, and frequently comes good after some years....)

However it in no way affects the Onkyo that we are discussing here, as these are now "owned" by PAC (Voxx/Sharp)

 

[dlaloum]

Still seems to me you imagine/hear advantages when you read higher wattage amp....especially at the listening levels you mentioned earlier.

Possible - but the difference was blatant ... not something that would require AB or ABX testing to identify.

Whereas the same external amps fitted to my previous Integra DTR 70.4 or Onkyo TX-SR876 - the differences were subtle and perhaps imaginary - my own A/B testing (including level matching etc...) seemed to indicate that the external amps had the edge.... but it might have been confirmation bias.

 

[lovinthehd]

Possible - but the difference was blatant ... not something that would require AB or ABX testing to identify.

Whereas the same external amps fitted to my previous Integra DTR 70.4 or Onkyo TX-SR876 - the differences were subtle and perhaps imaginary - my own A/B testing (including level matching etc...) seemed to indicate that the external amps had the edge.... but it might have been confirmation bias.

I wasn't there. We like more proof than anecdotal experiences around here as well. I do find you generally more credible than not based on your posts here and on asr.....bias is really hard to beat without proper controls....

 

[dlaloum]

Was thinking of stories like this beyond the story of the two divisions that did.... https://www.forbes.com/sites/marksparrow/2022/05/14/classic-japanese-audio-brand-onkyo-finally-files-for-bankruptcy/?sh=274d73986f1c

There was an update on forbes a couple of days later.

Onkyo Will Continue As A Major Audio Brand Thanks To Premium Audio Company And Sharp

Although the original holding company of Onkyo is no more, following bankruptcy filing, the brand has been rescued by Premium Audio Company and Sharp who bought Onkyo's manufacturing, brands, stock and other assets including the Integra brand. Onkyo will live on.

www.forbes.com

I continue to wonder, who collects the licencing fees that Voxx/Sharp are paying?

 

[Rylan]

I can only tell you the ones with the AKM IC measured with distortions much lower than the one measured with the TI IC. It was predictable too because TI's IC, the PCM5102A's SINAD is 93 dB, whereas the AK4458's 107 dB. Most argued that 93 dB would still put it in the "below the threshold of audibility" territory. I generally agree but would be a little more cautious to make a generalized assumption because that 93 dB was measured under ideal condition, when in real world applications, it is not fixed at 93 dB. For example it varies with a few things, such as the input voltage (the signal strength..):

Take a look of the datasheet and ask yourself if there is any chance that under some conditions the distortions+noise may rise above your own threshold? To me, it is good enough for real world use, but that's just me. There are people who feel it is not good enough. Have you listened to the 4700 and the RZ50 in a good demo setup?

PCM510xA 2.1 VRMS, 112/106/100 dB Audio Stereo DAC with PLL and 32-bit, 384 kHz PCM Interface datasheet (Rev. C) (ti.com)

View attachment 59133

Thank you Peng. That information is helpful. You and many others in this thread have really helped ease my mind in realizing the dac issue really isn’t all that important in the large scope of things. However, I do plan to reach out simply to see if I can get any new updates from Denon.

No, I have not had a chance to demo either the RZ50 or the 4700h. There isn’t an option to demo either AVR in my city. I currently have the RZ50 but haven’t opened it yet. I also purchased the 4700h today and it will be available for pickup Dec 23. I will be trying them both out. I can return the AVR I decide to not keep. I have until Jan 14th. This will be my first time ever setting up an AVR, but I’ve been taking some good notes. RSL’s speaker instruction Manual is really great for making sure set up goes well. I took very detailed notes and I’ve watched a solid 30+ videos on Audioholics YouTube channel and noted all the important setup information to do with room correction. I plan to get a SPL meter as well. I spent weeks watching all of Home Theater Gurus speaker placement videos and I wrote down all the formulas. I might sound a little extreme, but I’m just trying to do things correct as much as I can from the beginning. I’m a planner if that hasn’t come across yet

I do feel I have the right speaker placement selected. My center will have to be horizontal, but unfortunately I can’t have it at ear level. It will be at the bottom of my tv (30” from floor) and I will angle it slightly towards my seated ear position. L and R will be at 3’ from
Floor, and surrounds will be at 110° 3’9” from floor. I have a laser measuring tool and an electronic angle tool so I can get all my positioning set.

I will be setting up a 5.1.4. I know I already attached the specs in this thread on my speakers (RSL’s CG23 5.1 home theater system) but I do have a question regarding my speakers. I realized yesterday that the video that @gene did his review on for RSL, was actually for RSL’s “CG5” system.

https://www.audioholics.com/bookshelf-speaker-reviews/rsl-cg5-and-cg25

https://rslspeakers.com/products/cg5-5-1-home-theater-system/

He gave it a great review and I think they are a great company to work with. I couldn’t afford the CG5 system Gene reviewed, so I opted for the “CG3” system

https://rslspeakers.com/products/cg23-5-1-home-theater-speaker-system/

The CG5 upgrade is about a $1000 more. Not quite in my budget right now
If it’s not to much to ask, I’d appreciate any insight at comparing the specs between the 2 systems. Will I get semi close to the same positive sound quality results that @gene heard when reviewing the CG5 system? I don’t know enough to make that conclusion looking at the specs myself. Now that we have narrowed down the receiver to likely being the 4700H that I keep, I’m interested to know what others on this forum will think how well my speakers will pair with the 4700H? For starting out with my first home theater, would one likely be happy with the sound? I don’t have much of an expectation, but for as much time as I’ve invested in trying to do things properly, I do hope for good results

 

[Rylan]

I remember reading about something like that long time ago, so I don't remember the details anymore. If you post a link to the source, I may be able to tell whether that information is credible or not.

Now that I look back at my search history, I see I read it on page 109 of the comment section on Amirm’s review of the 4700h posted from @Amper42

Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

How is, in real life Dolby Atmos input, with a 7.1.4 speaker setup and external amp included, the power divided between all the channels. I could imagine fronts and center do (by far) the most and take most power. The sub’s are driving themselves so they shouldn’t be having impact. But is there...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Rylan]

Yeah the dac wouldn't be a dealbreaker but it would be nice to get the nicer chip. Can't hurt for him to ask

I appreciate that Danzilla31

 

[Rylan]

I have the current baby Integra with Dirac (DRX 3.4) - and I would agree with the comment "Great Preamp but weak amp section"

The RZ50 has more grunt - but if your speakers are low impedance, may still require external amplification (as does the Denon too)

Contest schmontest - us antipodeans can never take part! (Bah, Humbug!)

Thank you, dlaloum. Specs for all my speakers show 6 or 8 ohms. See attachments for further specs if interested. The CG23’s are for my LCR, the CG3’s are my two surrounds, the second attachment is for my sub, and the last attachment is for my in ceiling atmos. Link to the the 5.1 system + Atmos below

CG23M 5.1 Home Theater Speaker System - RSL Speakers

rslspeakers.com

The New C34E MKII Is Now Available!

The C34EMKII introduces audiophile-grade sound and parts to an in-ceiling platform that is suitable for ALL applications; from Atmos and surrounds, to home theater mains and stereo.

rslspeakers.com

 

[Danzilla31]

Thank you, dlaloum. Specs for all my speakers show 6 or 8 ohms. See attachments for further specs if interested. The CG23’s are for my LCR, the CG3’s are my two surrounds, the second attachment is for my sub, and the last attachment is for my in ceiling atmos. Link to the the 5.1 system + Atmos below

CG23M 5.1 Home Theater Speaker System - RSL Speakers

rslspeakers.com

The New C34E MKII Is Now Available!

The C34EMKII introduces audiophile-grade sound and parts to an in-ceiling platform that is suitable for ALL applications; from Atmos and surrounds, to home theater mains and stereo.

rslspeakers.com

You made a great choice I've owned several RSL speakers in the past that company is just awesome. Can't wait to hear your thoughts after listening to them

 

[lovinthehd]

That one is news to me - I missed it!

So who are Voxx/Sharp (PAC) paying their licencing fees to for Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra?

Also what does "Bankruptcy" mean under the Japanese legal system?
(In the UK and Australia, Bankruptcy means the company is wound up, under the American system it continues trading, and frequently comes good after some years....)

However it in no way affects the Onkyo that we are discussing here, as these are now "owned" by PAC (Voxx/Sharp)

There is more than one type of bankruptcy in the US, chapter 11 type offers protection and reorganization and can keep the doors open (chapter 7 is more the close-the-doors type). Not sure about Voxx, thought they traded off on assumption of debt for Onkyo USA. Onkyo Japan to my understanding wasn't bought out.

 

[PENG]

Thank you Peng. That information is helpful. You and many others in this thread have really helped ease my mind in realizing the dac issue really isn’t all that important in the large scope of things. However, I do plan to reach out simply to see if I can get any new updates from Denon.

No, I have not had a chance to demo either the RZ50 or the 4700h. There isn’t an option to demo either AVR in my city. I currently have the RZ50 but haven’t opened it yet. I also purchased the 4700h today and it will be available for pickup Dec 23. I will be trying them both out. I can return the AVR I decide to not keep. I have until Jan 14th. This will be my first time ever setting up an AVR, but I’ve been taking some good notes. RSL’s speaker instruction Manual is really great for making sure set up goes well. I took very detailed notes and I’ve watched a solid 30+ videos on Audioholics YouTube channel and noted all the important setup information to do with room correction. I plan to get a SPL meter as well. I spent weeks watching all of Home Theater Gurus speaker placement videos and I wrote down all the formulas. I might sound a little extreme, but I’m just trying to do things correct as much as I can from the beginning. I’m a planner if that hasn’t come across yet

I do feel I have the right speaker placement selected. My center will have to be horizontal, but unfortunately I can’t have it at ear level. It will be at the bottom of my tv (30” from floor) and I will angle it slightly towards my seated ear position. L and R will be at 3’ from
Floor, and surrounds will be at 110° 3’9” from floor. I have a laser measuring tool and an electronic angle tool so I can get all my positioning set.

I will be setting up a 5.1.4. I know I already attached the specs in this thread on my speakers (RSL’s CG23 5.1 home theater system) but I do have a question regarding my speakers. I realized yesterday that the video that @gene did his review on for RSL, was actually for RSL’s “CG5” system.

https://www.audioholics.com/bookshelf-speaker-reviews/rsl-cg5-and-cg25

https://rslspeakers.com/products/cg5-5-1-home-theater-system/

He gave it a great review and I think they are a great company to work with. I couldn’t afford the CG5 system Gene reviewed, so I opted for the “CG3” system

https://rslspeakers.com/products/cg23-5-1-home-theater-speaker-system/

The CG5 upgrade is about a $1000 more. Not quite in my budget right now
If it’s not to much to ask, I’d appreciate any insight at comparing the specs between the 2 systems. Will I get semi close to the same positive sound quality results that @gene heard when reviewing the CG5 system? I don’t know enough to make that conclusion looking at the specs myself. Now that we have narrowed down the receiver to likely being the 4700H that I keep, I’m interested to know what others on this forum will think how well my speakers will pair with the 4700H? For starting out with my first home theater, would one likely be happy with the sound? I don’t have much of an expectation, but for as much time as I’ve invested in trying to do things properly, I do hope for good results

If the concern is sound quality, I would suggest you have them side by side and compare them in direct mode first using just 2 speakers in stereo. You can set that up very quickly with only 2 speakers. If you hear one sounding better to you easily then you are half way home, otherwise you can continue to set things up you way to see fit to compare further. Please use unamplified (or if not possible, at least not heavily amplified)music, and tracks that you are very familiar with. You should be able to find such contents in some jazz and classical music. Also, try to keep volume at lower than -30 and then -20 +/-, and finally at level you most frequently listen to. And, do you tell yourself (therefore bias yourself) one sounds better, until you have taken the time. If you heard night and day difference, stop and investigate your setup, settings, connections to make sure everything has been done correctly for a proper comparison.

You really need to find a way to switch between the 2 quickly as human's auditory memory is not that great.

 

[PENG]

Note: the test clearly identified that the RZ50 has an overly sensitive Amp protection circuit... AKA "Nanny Circuit"

In actual use, I have never heard anyone reporting the activation of the protection on their AVR.

I have the less powerful baby brother AVR, and when connected to my "nominally" 4 ohm speakers, it did not sound great (it needed a lot more oomp, which has been provided by my external amps... not surprising given my speakers go down to 1.6ohm) - but at no stage did the protective "Nanny Circuit" kick in.

So yeah - the RZ50 failed this test, on a lab test bench - however I would refer to its performance before the nanny circuit kicked in, for a real life indication of capabilities, as I have never encountered anyone who has had the nanny circuit activate in real life - even with torture level low impedance speakers like mine!

If the nannies were called in at 35 W into 4 ohms in that test, something wasn't right. Poor design generally, or something else that scared them? You are the right who emphasized the important of current capacity, if I remember right.

Regardless, take a look of the 5 W distortions, okay 70 dB is not audible to most, but it just doesn't look good when it's 15 to almost 20 dB higher than Denon and Marantz's.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

0.001% THD+N is a SINAD of -100 dB, which if the new Denons had that people would not complain as it would be a better performance by ca 3 dB for the Denon AVR 3700 (AKM version). The 3800 has a SINAD in the ASR review of -87.3 dB with the 3700 (AKM) of -97.6 dB.

Let’s put it this way - would the X3700 sound any better than the X3800 at all?