Marantz AV10 calibrated by Audyssey lacks bass

[Paul McNeil]

You obviously got some bass back using the red curve, that if I understood correctly, you bumped up the subwoofer levels.

Yeah, bumped up the bass via the AV10 SpeakerslLevels trim, rather than more directly via the subwoofer amplifiers. My original question was, is there an optimal way to bump up bass!?

 

[Paul McNeil]

That’s probably like 90% of all people. Not much choices for most people. But putting the subs in the front 2 corners is not a bad choice either.

So many married men out there...

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yeah, bumped up the bass via the AV10 SpeakerslLevels trim, rather than more directly via the subwoofer amplifiers. My original question was, is there an optimal way to bump up bass!?

Well normally you would exactly what you did via trim levels in the AVR. Makes it consistent and repeatable. The real question is why audyssey set it the way it did in the first place.
Was looking for info on the Klipsch subs but can’t come up with anything. Do you have the model right? I think @PENG mentioned that the two ultras not collocated could offer much better coverage and response potential. I agree with that and would definitely try to move the PC’s into the front corners and go from there. They are fairly capable and I wonder if the Klipsch are causing more problems than solving. If you rescale the rew window from 45-105 for a 60db window, it would be easier to read and is the standard most people use. Might look uglier though.

 

[Paul McNeil]

The two PCs are located together in one front corner (should maximize output from the two), the three Klipsch KW-120 THX (very capable and musical, down to 30 htz, stacked) in the other, they definitely add, REW reveals.

Rescaling would make it 'uglier', I guess, so maybe I won't do that!

I need to run Audyssey again, give it a second chance, poor thing...

 

[PENG]

The two PCs are located together in one front corner (should maximize output from the two), the three Klipsch KW-120 THX (very capable and musical, down to 30 htz, stacked) in the other, they definitely add, REW reveals.

Rescaling would make it 'uglier', I guess, so maybe I won't do that!

I need to run Audyssey again, give it a second chance, poor thing...

I agree the location is the the readon for the poor deep bass response post Audyssey.

Just before you re-run, please run REW with Audyssey disabled. That should tell us something useful.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I agree the location is the the readon for the poor deep bass response post Audyssey.

Just before you re-run, please run REW with Audyssey disabled. That should tell us something useful.

I’m also concerned that the interaction between the phase mis-alignments of the different subwoofers is another problem. Not necessary the low output but generally speaking. Even svs recommends not mixing their own subwoofers with different phase characteristics. I know he’ll keep them, but imo the Klipsch should go. Actually, they may work nearfield with one PC in each front corner. I don’t know. I’m rambling. lol

 

[Paul McNeil]

I’m also concerned that the interaction between the phase mis-alignments of the different subwoofers is another problem. Not necessary the low output but generally speaking. Even svs recommends not mixing their own subwoofers with different phase characteristics. I know he’ll keep them, but imo the Klipsch should go. Actually, they may work nearfield with one PC in each front corner. I don’t know. I’m rambling. lol

I thought Audyessey corrected for phase differences (I use all four sub outputs from the AV10, three individually to the Klipsch). If it doesn't it's not worth much. But I think it does as the amplitude (measured by REW) of the bass response increase as I turn on each sub, all ported.

 

[TLS Guy]

I thought Audyessey corrected for phase differences (I use all four sub outputs from the AV10, three individually to the Klipsch). If it doesn't it's not worth much. But I think it does as the amplitude (measured by REW) of the bass response increase as I turn on each sub, all ported.

No Audyssey does not correct phase issues, but points them out, and I have to say not always correctly.

I would second turning off Audyssey except for levels and distance which it sets correctly. Actually it is about all it is good for.

I don't know what your main speakers are, or any of them except your subs. If your main speaker are capable, then set the speaker set up to LFE + Main, and set the crossover to F3 of the speakers plus 50%. Now set the sub level where it sounds good to you. I bet that will sound better than what you have now.

I have three systems, and Audyssey Eq spoils all of them in a major way. I have actually come to believe this auto Eq is based on a false premise. I suppose my situation may not be typical, as I am not in the habit of putting together systems with problems. In my AV room only the ceiling speakers are set to small, all the rest are LFE + main.

 

[Paul McNeil]

Well, same thing, it calculates a distance, no. Anyway, the subs are not out of phase. Otherwise their contributions would not be additive.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I thought Audyessey corrected for phase differences (I use all four sub outputs from the AV10, three individually to the Klipsch). If it doesn't it's not worth much. But I think it does as the amplitude (measured by REW) of the bass response increase as I turn on each sub, all ported.

Well as far as I recall audysseys phase correction is fairly limited. I’d have to read the papers again. My point though, was ported subwoofers have different phase responses. It’s just really the nature of different designs with different drivers, port size/length, cabinet size etc. no room correction in the world can change that.

 

[lovinthehd]

Interesting you're using three independent channels for the stack of Klipsch....main advantage of the independent pre-outs is going to be different locations for the subs rather than a stack. You sure there's no other location spots but the front corners?

 

[Paul McNeil]

Yeah, I get that, the advantage of four pre-outs for 4 subs distributed around the room. Actually, I've tried the Klipsch in a back corner, but that didn't go well, they didn't integrate well with the SVS in the front two corners. The bass lacked definition, and I hate that. But I couldn't move anything back there now, have since installed built in bookshelves.

I'm actually not complaining about the bass I have now, after REW-mediated boosting of the Audyssey calibration curve. It's full with excellent definition, drum kicks/hits and acoustic bass lines are to die for. But apparently you guys think it could be better.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah, I get that, the advantage of four pre-outs for 4 subs distributed around the room. Actually, I've tried the Klipsch in a back corner, but that didn't go well, they didn't integrate well with the SVS in the front two corners. The bass lacked definition, and I hate that. But I couldn't move anything back there now, have since installed built in bookshelves.

I'm actually not complaining about the bass I have now, after REW-mediated boosting of the Audyssey calibration curve. It's full with excellent definition, drum kicks/hits and acoustic bass lines are to die for. But apparently you guys think it could be better.

There is of course what is working now and well....I'm more curious about other configurations yielding better results, tho.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

But apparently you guys think it could be better.

Well that’s the whole problem. It can always be better lol. I mean, the rabbit hole is deep!
There’s always better speakers, better subs, better integration and on and on and on. But at what cost, both physically and financially.
Yes, your system could be better. But so could mine!
At the end of the day, if you’re happy, then you’re happy.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But apparently you guys think it could be better.

We wouldn’t know for sure that it could be better in your room unless we actually heard it ourselves.

 

[snakeeyes]

Seems like if it’s the best you’ve heard then maybe leave it that way for now.

If continuing down the rabbit hole…. Most people would compare SVS vs Klipsch and remove the weaker one from the equation. Identical subs are easier to integrate.

 

[Paul McNeil]

OK, I measured for a second time. Same result, Audyssey sets the bass down by almost 15 dB (see chart). This was a stereo measurement. My mains are Revel Performa F226BE, crossed over at 80 htzm if that matters, and Audyssey thinks they are out of phase but the wiring checks out fine (I guess the amp could be inverted phase??). Anyway, I ignored that.

Still confounded!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Wow. That’s so puzzling. +12 boost is just odd.
I wonder, just for more data. Could you measure just the svs, just the Klipsch and include one screen cap that’s 45-105 and 10-200hz? Sometimes zooming in can help. Since there’s no optional placement it may not matter, but data is data! Also, it looks much better with audyssey so I’d keep that engaged, but maybe limit to stay below 4-500hz.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

The pre boost graph shows a step down from 65-40 and 40-20. Looking at the individual sets of subwoofers might show why. Also, using only two subwoofer outs might help too.

 

[Paul McNeil]

Wow. That’s so puzzling. +12 boost is just odd.
I wonder, just for more data. Could you measure just the svs, just the Klipsch and include one screen cap that’s 45-105 and 10-200hz? Sometimes zooming in can help. Since there’s no optional placement it may not matter, but data is data! Also, it looks much better with audyssey so I’d keep that engaged, but maybe limit to stay below 4-500hz.

Sure, I'll give it a try, the separate measurements.