Marantz AV10 calibrated by Audyssey lacks bass

[Paul McNeil]

Well that looks pretty damn good! Smoothing imo is usually set to none while doing adjustments, and whatever you feel like after that to show how pretty it is lol. I normally don’t use any. FWIW.
Yeah, looks pretty. Good. As with @PENG, I’d be concerned with distortion. +12 is a hell of a lot. So curious, where audy set it initially. In the sweep it looks like about 82db. That’s not much compared to a big 115db movie hit. Of course if you never get the MV above -20 or whatever, it wouldn’t much matter. Except that if the LFE trim value is in the + you can have distortion in the signal. That’s a whole different problem.
So A) we want to figure out why the initial setting is so low. Or B) just roll with it. lol
I’m assuming you’ve done some listening? I would expect at least some improvement over when you started this thread.

What's REW showing for distortions?

 

[PENG]

So I’m not sure what you mean by the 22hz drop. I can see it there clearly, but just checking for what you mean. The Klipsch subs were measured by sound and vision to have f3 of 22hz and f6 at 20. The svs are probably in the native 20hz(with bungs available to tune to 16 and 12 iirc). I suspect some anomalies here due to to that.

I am not familiar with the Klipschs so my comments are based on the PC13Us.

James did not measure those but even the PC2000 that are a couple notches below has the following:
That's without room gain!

The PB13U was measured, it should behave about the same as the PC13U in terms of measurements:

Regardless of the mode, those big SVS just don't drop so rapidly from 22 Hz down, even in quasi-anechoic, let alone in room, and with Audyssey XT32 SubEQ HT incharge.

Here's my own, 9 positions, Audyssey OFF, for the front left+right+sub1 and sub2 (SVS subs), no such big loss below 20 Hz, we both know it is room dependent, but the OP has a large room so it should only be smoother, probably with less peaky room gain than my smaller room, but should have no major dips either.

 

[PENG]

Yes, that's the unresolved question, it's the phone app, but why is it so grossly misadjusting the bass?

I always use the app, and don't have such inexplicable behavior but we may have different versions, so it is possible that your version has a bug, it would be a good question for Marantz. I used to give up on asking them questions that they could not find from the manuals, but I found that they have improved a lot lately. If you insist on them to consult their level 2 as required, they would. At least you don't have to re-run Audyssey anymore, it used to be not too bad when I had only 7+2 channels, now for you to have to endure those chirps for 15+4 channels, I can't imagine if even a good drink could help enough...

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I am not familiar with the Klipschs so my comments are based on the PC13Us.

James did not measure those but even the PC2000 that are a couple notches below has the following:
That's without room gain!

View attachment 66199

The PB13U was measured, it should behave about the same as the PC13U in terms of measurements:

View attachment 66200

Regardless of the mode, those big SVS just don't drop so rapidly from 22 Hz down, even in quasi-anechoic, let alone in room, and with Audyssey XT32 SubEQ HT incharge.

Here's my own, 9 positions, Audyssey OFF, for the front left+right+sub1 and sub2 (SVS subs), no such big loss below 20 Hz, we both know it is room dependent, but the OP has a large room so it should only be smoother, probably with less peaky room gain than my smaller room, but should have no major dips either.

View attachment 66201

I gotta run but in case you missed. The Klipsch were measured at f3 and f6 of 22hz and 20hz respectively.
I feel like there’s a gain issue of some kind here and thus the odd behavior. Also, there’s. Lot of distortion in his graph no?
No time now. Check in later.

 

[Paul McNeil]

I am not familiar with the Klipschs so my comments are based on the PC13Us.

James did not measure those but even the PC2000 that are a couple notches below has the following:
That's without room gain!

View attachment 66199

The PB13U was measured, it should behave about the same as the PC13U in terms of measurements:

View attachment 66200

Regardless of the mode, those big SVS just don't drop so rapidly from 22 Hz down, even in quasi-anechoic, let alone in room, and with Audyssey XT32 SubEQ HT incharge.

Here's my own, 9 positions, Audyssey OFF, for the front left+right+sub1 and sub2 (SVS subs), no such big loss below 20 Hz, we both know it is room dependent, but the OP has a large room so it should only be smoother, probably with less peaky room gain than my smaller room, but should have no major dips either.

View attachment 66201

The SVS are in the 17 htz mode, no smoothing (the lowest tuning mode, with the updated amps). Here are the SVS alone. It looks like the Klipsch are interfering, to me, below 20 htz. But I'm not sure I need 17 htz...

 

[Paul McNeil]

Also, there’s. Lot of distortion in his graph no?

I am not familiar with interpreting distortion, the only comparison I have is Peng's above. There's a larger gap between the SPL in my graph and the distortion lines (~ 40 dB) than in Peng's. I'm just guessing that's good..

 

[panteragstk]

I believe the directional bass feature works for subs in four corners. Basically the bass below XO of each corresponding speaker goes to that sub. IE: left surround speaker crosses to the left corner sub, right front speaker crosses to the right front sub and so on. Someone tested it on avs. Iirc it was only meh.

I'll make a note to test these features to see what they really do. I guess Spring Cleaning will be an actual thing at my house to get the theater back in action.

 

[PENG]

The SVS are in the 17 htz mode, no smoothing (the lowest tuning mode, with the updated amps). Here are the SVS alone. It looks like the Klipsch are interfering, to me, below 20 htz. But I'm not sure I need 17 htz...
View attachment 66202

In my setup, I found that 20 Hz mode gave me the best extension, down to about 10 Hz, but in a larger room I guess 16-17 Hz may be better, though I think setting it to 20 Hz is still likely to be better as it will give you more output in the 20-100 Hz range for sure, according to SVS anyway.

 

[PENG]

I'm just guessing that's good..

Yes, looks good, for the deep bass range anyway.

 

[PENG]

I gotta run but in case you missed. The Klipsch were measured at f3 and f6 of 22hz and 20hz respectively.
I feel like there’s a gain issue of some kind here and thus the odd behavior.

Paul seems to be saying that it has to do with the app, so I guess if he ran it with the AVR he wouldn't get such odd behavior.

Also, there’s. Lot of distortion in his graph no?

I would say distortions in his graphs look great for the bass range up to the 200 Hz mark as shown. I do expect it to be a lot better at above 300 Hz or so.

 

[Paul McNeil]

Paul seems to be saying that it has to do with the app, so I guess if he ran it with the AVR he wouldn't get such odd behavior.



I would say distortions in his graphs look great for the bass range up to the 200 Hz mark as shown. I do expect it to be a lot better at above 300 Hz or so.

That's what I'm hoping for with five subs, corner loaded (+3dB) and located next to each other (+6 dB), those drivers are barely moving at 80 dB...

 

[Paul McNeil]

Here's the full spectrum with distortion....

 

[PENG]

Here's the full spectrum with distortion....View attachment 66213

Speakers have much higher harmonic distortions than amplifiers, below is one for the Klipsch RP-600M with 10 Volt input. 10 V will be just about the maximum your AV10 can do without clipping too badly.
The RP-600M is a low cost speaker (relatively) so higher distortions is probably expected.

KEF (except their entry level ones) and Revel speakers typically have lower distortions than some of their competition's.

Klipsch RP-600M Speaker Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah, it was the phone app, I'm a retired scientist and should have know not to change two variables!

I meant more on the phone app if you used it as set up vs the avr and then using the phone app to fine tune....

 

[Paul McNeil]

I meant more on the phone app if you used it as set up vs the avr and then using the phone app to fine tune....

I don't think it can be used in that way but please let me know if I am wrong.