Marantz AV 10 installed: - Early Review and Impressions.

[Trell]

This particular claim [DAC filter roll-off characteristics] while just a claim because "audible" or not is debatable and it certainly depends on the individual's hearing ability, or discernibility in the high frequency range as well as being subjective in nature, it is however, at least 100% logical, even when bottleneck analysis is correctly applied.

Is the actual FR roll-off shown by D&M? With the expected age deprecation of hearing it's almost certainly inaudible to him.

Perhaps D&M could take a page or two from RME Audio. Below is the FR response for the filters for one of their converters, and they're likely not the same but probably close enough to not matter in this context.

 

[PENG]

Is the actual FR roll-off shown by D&M? With the expected age deprecation of hearing it's almost certainly inaudible to him.

Perhaps D&M could take a page or two from RME Audio. Below is the FR response for the filters for one of their converters, and they're likely not the same but probably close enough to not matter in this context.

View attachment 73795

The different roll off characteristics are build in by the DAC manufacturers, TI, AKM, ESS and others offer such features in some of their models.

Marantz simply choose to implement their preferred roll off.

For example, the AV10 uses the reference DAC ES9018 that has the following roll off filter response option:

- Sharp Roll-Off
- Slow Roll-Off

The newer IC, the non reference ES9017 that Marantz Cinema 30 and Denon AVR-X6800H use offer more choices as in addition to the slow and fast roll-off, they also have the choices of linear phase and minimum phase:

The pros and cons of the linear phase vs minimum phase part is beyond my pay grade, at the moment anyway.

The competitor on the Anthem side, that is, the AVM90, uses one of the flagship reference ESS DAC IC, namely the ES9038 Pro (replaced by the newest ES9039 Pro), has even more filter options, but Anthem did not offer a selectable option and based on the measurements, they likely implemented the default filter, such as the fast roll-off, minimum phase and that would be the same or similar to the AV10"s Filter 2.

 

[Trell]

The different roll off characteristics are build in by the DAC manufacturers, TI, AKM, ESS and others offer such features in some of their models.

Marantz simply choose to implement their preferred roll off.

For example, the AV10 uses the reference DAC ES9018 that has the following roll off filter response option:

- Sharp Roll-Off
- Slow Roll-Off

The newer IC, the non reference ES9017 that Marantz Cinema 30 and Denon AVR-X6800H use offer more choices as in addition to the slow and fast roll-off, they also have the choices of linear phase and minimum phase:

The pros and cons of the linear phase vs minimum phase part is well beyond my pay grade.

View attachment 73796

The context here is the AV10 DAC filter FR response which is not published, as far as I know. They might have messed up the implementation.

 

[PENG]

The context here is the AV10 DAC filter FR response which is not published, as far as I know. They might have messed up the implementation.

I am not sure if they did publish it in the Maximo YT reviews but both Gene and Amir measured the responses for either.

Gene's measurements show the FR below, that are consistent with ESS's published on the datasheet of the ES9018:

Marantz AV 10 15.4CH 8K AV Processor Review!

 

[Trell]

AV10 DAC filters:
I prefer the filter 2 for all sources. Filter 1 is too soft to my old ears.

There is also a Cinema EQ control in the AV10 that softens the high frequencies. I prefer the sound with this control turned off.

Filter 2, and Cinema EQ turned off.

Various DAC filters don't just have rolloff differences. They also have delay and ringing differences. People have preferences.

Sadly, we don't have any measured FR response on those two filters, or any other filter specification, as far as I know. That there is delay and ringing differences does not mean that it's readily audible, except in special cases by some.

Of course, there are preferences, if you can hear the difference.

 

[Trell]

I am not sure if they did publish it in the Maximo YT reviews but both Gene and Amir measured the responses for either.

Gene's measurements show the FR below, that are consistent with ESS's published on the datasheet of the ES9018:

Marantz AV 10 15.4CH 8K AV Processor Review!

View attachment 73798

View attachment 73797

Thanks for that! Not exactly audible, depending on age and content.

 

[Trell]

See the post above you for the measured response of the 2 DAC filters.

Your argument doesn't mean anything but an ability to argue.

You don't understand the FR graphs, I'd say.

This is not something new and unknown for DACs in any way as it's a solved problem.

Arguing that the DSP processing is different and affects the audio is totally believable.

 

[PENG]

Thanks for that! Not exactly audible, depending on age and content.

Agreed, that some people might, but some might not. IIRC, Gene sort of said he could hear a difference but subtle, I think, definitely just my interpretation of what he said...

 

[PENG]

People have preferences because of a multitude of factors.

oI don't think he argued though, he did qualify his opinion with "depending on age and content. " I would think that lots of 80-90 years old men who worked in factories most of their life, probably could not even hear anything >10 kHz so in such cases, roll-off or not that starts at 12 kHz, and/or the "ringing" effects, different impulse responses etc., might still be transparent to them lol...

 

[Trebdp83]

Blah, blah, blah. Anyway, @TLS Guy is enjoying his upgrade… until it s#%ts the bed.

 

[Trell]

I don't think he argued though, he did quality his opinion with "depending on age and content. " I would think that lots of 80-90 years old men who worked in factories most of their life, probably could not even hear anything >10 kHz so in such cases, roll-off or not that starts at 12 kHz, and/or the "ringing" effects, different impulse responses etc., might still be transparent to them lol...

Agreed, and I should have added the qualifiers "environment", "genetic" and "disease" as well.

 

[Trell]

I can hear 4Khz tones on a good day. I can also perceive small EQ changes that are done at frequencies above 10Khz.

How small a difference and how high above 10 kHz can you perceive?

Can you hear a -0.2 dB difference at 12 kHz, or -0.98 dB at 14 kHz? That's the RME "slow" filter for 44.1 kHz (eye-balling my posted graph), and AV10 is not using a filter with a bigger and earlier roll-off (eye-balling again).

 

[Trell]

Blah, blah, blah. Anyway, @TLS Guy is enjoying his upgrade… until it s#%ts the bed.

DAC is pretty much a solved problem for transparency in a home environment, unless the manufacturer f*cks up the implementation or listen too much to the bean counters.

Then there is DSP processing/effects that for sure can make very audible changes, but that is not what these latest posts are about.

 

[Trebdp83]

DAC is pretty much a solved problem for transparency in a home environment, unless the manufacturer f*cks up the implementation or listen too much to the bean counters.

Then there is DSP processing/effects that for sure can make very audible changes, but that is not what these latest posts are about.

 

[Trell]

I haven't tried your exact example. I can hear the approx. 15Khz resonance of my CD 1.4" exit tweeter before EQ, and resulting change after EQ. I do hear .1dB step changes - the minimum change I can make. The chart is raw natural response of my tweeter and horn from 0 - 70 deg. in 10 deg. steps.

I have a DAC with 7 filter choices. I hear differences and settled on the minimum phase fast filter. The differences are subtle, just like with the 2 AV10 choices, and I have a preference.

View attachment 73799

You must have an exceptional hearing at any age, more or less, but I'm curios as to what your graphs means. At 10 kHz the blue graph is (eyeballing again) is 85 dbpsl while the dark grey and red is a touch above 100 dbspl. The difference of 15 dbspl for sure could be audible, but 15 dbspl is far from 0.1 dbspl that you claim to hear.

But these are in-room measurements that are very sensitive to mic placement, for one. The other is just to measure the DAC output.

 

[Trell]

View attachment 73800

And audible DAC differences is like this (with the usual caveats):

 

[PENG]

View attachment 73800

It just keep on kicking despite the beating!!

 

[Trebdp83]

No s#%t! Can folks be banned just for being tiresome and relentless trolls?

 

[PENG]

I haven't tried your exact example. I can hear the approx. 15Khz resonance of my 1.4" exit CD tweeter before EQ, and resulting change after EQ. I do hear .1dB step changes - the minimum change I can make. The chart below is raw natural response of my tweeter and horn from 0 - 70 deg. horizontally, in 10 deg. steps, with no smoothing.

I have a DAC with 7 filter choices. I hear differences and settled on the minimum phase fast filter. The differences are subtle, just like with the 2 AV10 choices, and I have a preference.

View attachment 73799

Right about those things and I am well aware of those valid points, though it is hard to say if most people could actually perceived the effects if bias are eliminated. And if most could, would most care (as you mentioned).

Regardless, I used my multichannel system for movies, so even if the AV10/20/30 only make a better difference, that is as significant as reported, I will be happy to have one.

 

[Trell]

It just keep on kicking despite the beating!!

Our hobby is filled with zombies that never die and keep propping up.

A page or two ago cables was brought up, along with impedances, so perhaps we can continue there as a new topic? I've heard that Adamantium has some real nice night and day audio properties.