Marantz AV 10 installed: - Early Review and Impressions.

[Trell]

I don't think he argued though, he did quality his opinion with "depending on age and content. " I would think that lots of 80-90 years old men who worked in factories most of their life, probably could not even hear anything >10 kHz so in such cases, roll-off or not that starts at 12 kHz, and/or the "ringing" effects, different impulse responses etc., might still be transparent to them lol...

Agreed, and I should have added the qualifiers "environment", "genetic" and "disease" as well.

 

[PaulBe]

I don't think he argued though, he did quality his opinion with "depending on age and content. " I would think that lots of 80-90 years old men who worked in factories most of their life, probably could not even hear anything >10 kHz so in such cases, roll-off or not that starts at 12 kHz, and/or the "ringing" effects, different impulse responses etc., might still be transparent to them lol...

I can hear 4Khz tones on a good day. I can also perceive small EQ changes that are done at frequencies above 10Khz.

Our ear/brain connection is dependent on more than absolute frequency response. The ringing, including the unnatural pre ringing of a linear phase filter vs the natural ringing of a minimum phase filter, will make a difference in perceived sound. Then, there are different amounts of delay and ringing with fast or slow filters. Some will hear it. Some will not. Some will care, some will not.

 

[Trell]

I can hear 4Khz tones on a good day. I can also perceive small EQ changes that are done at frequencies above 10Khz.

How small a difference and how high above 10 kHz can you perceive?

Can you hear a -0.2 dB difference at 12 kHz, or -0.98 dB at 14 kHz? That's the RME "slow" filter for 44.1 kHz (eye-balling my posted graph), and AV10 is not using a filter with a bigger and earlier roll-off (eye-balling again).

 

[Trell]

Blah, blah, blah. Anyway, @TLS Guy is enjoying his upgrade… until it s#%ts the bed.

DAC is pretty much a solved problem for transparency in a home environment, unless the manufacturer f*cks up the implementation or listen too much to the bean counters.

Then there is DSP processing/effects that for sure can make very audible changes, but that is not what these latest posts are about.

 

[PaulBe]

How small a difference and how high above 10 kHz can you perceive?

Can you hear a -0.2 dB difference at 12 kHz, or -0.98 dB at 14 kHz? That's the RME "slow" filter for 44.1 kHz (eye-balling my posted graph), and AV10 is not using a filter with a bigger and earlier roll-off (eye-balling again).

I haven't tried your exact example. I can hear the approx. 15Khz resonance of my 1.4" exit CD tweeter before EQ, and resulting change after EQ. I do hear .1dB step changes - the minimum change I can make. The chart below is raw natural response of my tweeter and horn from 0 - 70 deg. horizontally, in 10 deg. steps, with no smoothing.

I have a DAC with 7 filter choices. I hear differences and settled on the Linear Phase Slow filter. The differences are subtle, just like with the 2 AV10 choices, and I have a preference.

 

[Trebdp83]

DAC is pretty much a solved problem for transparency in a home environment, unless the manufacturer f*cks up the implementation or listen too much to the bean counters.

Then there is DSP processing/effects that for sure can make very audible changes, but that is not what these latest posts are about.

 

[Trell]

I haven't tried your exact example. I can hear the approx. 15Khz resonance of my CD 1.4" exit tweeter before EQ, and resulting change after EQ. I do hear .1dB step changes - the minimum change I can make. The chart is raw natural response of my tweeter and horn from 0 - 70 deg. in 10 deg. steps.

I have a DAC with 7 filter choices. I hear differences and settled on the minimum phase fast filter. The differences are subtle, just like with the 2 AV10 choices, and I have a preference.

View attachment 73799

You must have an exceptional hearing at any age, more or less, but I'm curios as to what your graphs means. At 10 kHz the blue graph is (eyeballing again) is 85 dbpsl while the dark grey and red is a touch above 100 dbspl. The difference of 15 dbspl for sure could be audible, but 15 dbspl is far from 0.1 dbspl that you claim to hear.

But these are in-room measurements that are very sensitive to mic placement, for one. The other is just to measure the DAC output.

 

[Trell]

View attachment 73800

And audible DAC differences is like this (with the usual caveats):

 

[PENG]

View attachment 73800

It just keep on kicking despite the beating!!

 

[Trebdp83]

No s#%t! Can folks be banned just for being tiresome and relentless trolls?

 

[PENG]

I haven't tried your exact example. I can hear the approx. 15Khz resonance of my 1.4" exit CD tweeter before EQ, and resulting change after EQ. I do hear .1dB step changes - the minimum change I can make. The chart below is raw natural response of my tweeter and horn from 0 - 70 deg. horizontally, in 10 deg. steps, with no smoothing.

I have a DAC with 7 filter choices. I hear differences and settled on the minimum phase fast filter. The differences are subtle, just like with the 2 AV10 choices, and I have a preference.

View attachment 73799

Right about those things and I am well aware of those valid points, though it is hard to say if most people could actually perceived the effects if bias are eliminated. And if most could, would most care (as you mentioned).

Regardless, I used my multichannel system for movies, so even if the AV10/20/30 only make a better difference, that is as significant as reported, I will be happy to have one.

 

[Trell]

It just keep on kicking despite the beating!!

Our hobby is filled with zombies that never die and keep propping up.

A page or two ago cables was brought up, along with impedances, so perhaps we can continue there as a new topic? I've heard that Adamantium has some real nice night and day audio properties.

 

[Trell]

No s#%t! Can folks be banned just for being tiresome and relentless trolls?

I'm sorry, all DACs sounds different and are easily discernable.

 

[Trebdp83]

Get help.

 

[Trell]

Get help.

If a new member posted similar about DACs we all know what types of comments he would get, don't we? With your number of posts and long time membership you must have seen this many times, I guess, and occasionally commented upon it.

 

[PaulBe]

You must have an exceptional hearing at any age, more or less, but I'm curios as to what your graphs means. At 10 kHz the blue graph is (eyeballing again) is 85 dbpsl while the dark grey and red is a touch above 100 dbspl. The difference of 15 dbspl for sure could be audible, but 15 dbspl is far from 0.1 dbspl that you claim to hear.

I don't have exceptional hearing. I blew out my hearing professionally mixing sound in an audio suite for 35 years. You don't have to be a retired 90 year old factory worker to have hearing issues.

The graph means what I wrote - "The chart below is raw natural response of my tweeter and horn from 0 - 70 deg. horizontally, in 10 deg. steps, with no smoothing." There are 7 curves that match the response at 7 different horizontal angles, from 0deg. on axis to 70 degrees off axis. The top grey curve shows the distinct resonance at about 15Khz. This is normal for a 1.4" exit compression driver tweeter. All drivers lose response off axis. I don't have a raw unnormalized graph with just the on axis response. My strictly on axis chart is normalized with applied EQ.

Additionally it was measured at 1 meter with a 2.83V input to the driver - 2.83V, at 1 meter, into 8ohms, = 1 watt. I used my earthworks M30 measurement mic with the Audiomatica Clio X measurement system.

You gave me a mark of 'optimistic' for my previous response to you. I'm not optimistic about anything here. I'm simply stating that there is more to hearing than absolute frequency response. I don't know why I can hear EQ changes above 10Khz. Conventional hearing wisdom says it's impossible. On top of this, 15Khz information in natural sound is about 30 - 40dB down from what is happening at 500 - 1000Hz.

Possible explanation - High frequencies are not independent of the rest of the audio spectrum. High frequencies help define and shape the rest of the audio spectrum.

"But these are in-room measurements that are very sensitive to mic placement, for one. The other is just to measure the DAC output." A gated log chirp sweep of a tweeter - especially a horn tweeter - at 1 meter has very little room content. The room garbage in the graph is the stuff below 300Hz.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Occasionally we stop and listen to the music.

That, and "Audio is just a hobby".

It just seems like a lot of audiophiles listen more to the amps and speakers than to the music.

And treating the "lab" seems more important than treating the "patient".

BTW, I listen to "Yo Yo Ma Plays Ennio Morricone" everyday in my car.

 

[Trell]

I don't have exceptional hearing. I blew out my hearing professionally mixing sound in an audio suite for 35 years. You don't have to be a retired 90 year old factory worker to have hearing issues.

My sympathies, really. I've never had to use my ears that way for making a living.

You gave me a mark of 'optimistic' for my previous response to you. I'm not optimistic about anything here. I'm simply stating that there is more hearing than absolute frequency response. I don't know why I can hear EQ changes above 10Khz. Conventional hearing wisdom says it's impossible. On top of this, 15Khz information in natural sound is about 30 - 40dB down from what is happening at 500 - 1000Hz.

"Conventional hearing wisdom" is what it is (unreliable), but I just claimed that statistically it's very unlikely given your approximate age in earlier posts (that is, not impossible). And the modern world is filled with very loud noises from childhood on that harm our hearing. Older dudes, like me, still hear up to around 12 kHz, depending on which ear. That is, I hear something, but for sure would not be able do different 0.1 dB there or any other frequency.

Luckily for us there isn't much content 15 kHz or higher, but there is some of course. Hearing difficulties in the speech band is much, much worse, of course.

 

[ryanosaur]

I really hate it when daddy and daddy fight.

 

[PENG]

I can hear 4Khz tones on a good day. I can also perceive small EQ changes that are done at frequencies above 10Khz.

But if you do the Klippel tests (you said you did right?), that it done blind, then how small such EQ changes would that be for it to be perceived? Just curious, that's all.

Our ear/brain connection is dependent on more than absolute frequency response.

On this point, we obviously have to agree because it is factual, 100% objective, but we also need to keep in mind that, there is accuracy/transparency, and preference. One being objective, the other subjective.

For accuracy/transparency, it is easy to agree that if the input signal waveform is the same as the output signal waveform, that accuracy is achieved, and if not then it is not 100% accurate by definition.

So, cutting out frequencies > 22,000 Hz should result in the output signal inherently more accurate for transparency than preserving it because any frequencies resulted back in the audible band of up to 20,000 Hz due to the frequencies in the >20,000 Hz ultrasonic range will be a result of distortions such as intermodulation distortions. Some people may be able to detect such distortions and prefer their presence, but it is doubtful, in the case of the likes of the high quality processors such as the AV10, because the magnitude of such distortions will be too loud for it to be in the so called audible threshold anyway.

The ringing, including the unnatural pre ringing of a linear phase filter vs the natural ringing of a minimum phase filter, will make a difference in perceived sound. Then, there are different amounts of delay and ringing with fast or slow filters. Some will hear it. Some will not. Some will care, some will not.

Their are sites that I know of, conducted blind listening tests on those effects, and if I remember right, most couldn't tell a difference while some could, though I don't recall any conclusions have been made so far.