Man vs. God

[rnatalli]

Well I apologize then, I don't remember reading that and still didn't find it in the past 5 or so pages.

No worries. I haven't posted in the last 5 pages so you would have found nothing

If you re-read my post 7 posts back where I quote Craig, you'll probably see where I was coming from.

 

[CraigV]

No worries. I haven't posted in the last 5 pages so you would have found nothing

If you re-read my post 7 posts back where I quote Craig, you'll probably see where I was coming from.

If it helps, I believe the posts in question are #370 (mine) and #373 (rnatalli)

 

[NicolasKL]

That said, the closest I could come to proving any thing would be the thousands upon thousands of testimonies or unexplainable events linked directly to God in more modern literature and word of mouth. In a universe that trends towards chaos its too hard to believe coincidence sometimes. I'm curious what your thoughts are on that...

Without actual examples of what you're talking about I would say it's difficult to precisely state anyone's thoughts on that, but since you're being so general, in general I'd say that your unexplainable events are probably very explainable and their "direct link" to God is entirely in the mind of the one doing the linking. People survive a car crash and thank God for his intervention when they should really be thanking the engineers at Ford.

 

[adwilk]

Without actual examples of what you're talking about I would say it's difficult to precisely state anyone's thoughts on that, but since you're being so general, in general I'd say that your unexplainable events are probably very explainable and their "direct link" to God is entirely in the mind of the one doing the linking. People survive a car crash and thank God for his intervention when they should really be thanking the engineers at Ford.

Ok, just for an example even though it has virtually nothing to do with the thread... Keep in mind that there are an unlimited number of scenarios that have the same theme...

When I graduated HS my parents put their house in my hometown on the market. It was on the market for about 26 months, little to no interest on the home given the price point for the town. They really wanted to move closer to work and downsize a bit since the kiddos were gone. Couldn't sell it. A youth group showed up to pray on their lawn one saturday night for the house to sell, not knowing anything about my family or their situation. They had an offer on Monday.

Coincidence, sure, it could be. But it at least makes you think.

 

[CraigV]

OK, I want to take this in a bit of a different direction, but first, a question – For those who are “non-believers” – Do humans have a soul, which is released from their mortal body upon its death?

 

[lsiberian]

It doesn't seem to make us think, it seems to appeal to our childish side which is quite superstitious and believes in magic and Santa Claus.

So it's childish to see that the house didn't sell for 26 months and then after one night a group prays for it to sell and it does almost immediately.

It seems the most logical conclusion to state that prayer caused the difference. Any other explanation is less logical and more speculative. On a secondary note, if you can't see the difference between the concept of Santa Claus and God than I think it's hard to have a reasonable discussion. We've flown over the North Pole and seen no evidence. Yet the few folks I know with near death experiences actually described going to heaven. You can speculate I suppose, but it's just that speculation. What they said is possibly true.

If your point is to use an extreme example to sway your position I'll overlook it, but at any rate. I don't understand how you can come to the conclusion based on the evidence presented that prayer didn't make a difference. The examples of this sort of coincedence are too numerous in my experience to view this as superstition.

 

[lsiberian]

Your poisoning the well not withstanding: there isn't a single personal comment in the bunch. There isn't a single instance of questioning your motivations, or you as a person, or anything of the kind.

But since you feel attacked, let me assure you that no personal commentary was intended. My intent has been to comment on your posts and the thoughts contained therein. To whatever extent I may have diverged from that intent, you have my sincere apologies.

This is the limitation of written word. What is said only in honest kindness can come across as arrogant, insulting, etc.. Knowing you from our previous discussion I'd say it's just your writing style and Craig isn't as used to it.

I do wonder where you've done debating. You seem to have well formed ideas. Though I disagree with you on much I do respect your skill.

 

[lsiberian]

But on the matter of evolution, whuch seems in contrast and in regards to the evidence quite clear and down to earth, absolute incontrevertible scientificproof is required...

The argument is over God's existence and involvement if he does exist. Be careful to attribute creationism to everyone arguing for God's existence.

The term generally applies to young earth creationists. A position I don't hold. Intelligent Design is a viable possibility for the origins of our species. Whether you agree or disagree that it is what occurred it's certainly a possible conclusion held by many people.

 

[JerryLove]

OK, I want to take this in a bit of a different direction, but first, a question – For those who are “non-believers” – Do humans have a soul, which is released from their mortal body upon its death?

Since there is no evidence to support such a position, I'll have to vote "no".

 

[CraigV]

Since there is no evidence to support such a position, I'll have to vote "no".

OK, that's one vote - anyone else?

 

[croseiv]

How much longer will this thread wander?????

 

[JerryLove]

If your point is to use an extreme example to sway your position I'll overlook it, but at any rate. I don't understand how you can come to the conclusion based on the evidence presented that prayer didn't make a difference. The examples of this sort of coincedence are too numerous in my experience to view this as superstition.

I think that there are several different factors that come into play that cause some skeptics to speak in absolutes about negative claims.

There are a lot of claims of miracles that are demonstrably false.
There are no claims of miracles that are testably true.
There are a great number of people asserting absolute positives on poor evidence and attempting to use proper (non-absolute) counter-arguments as a lever to assert that the position of the non-miracle-believer is weak.

I don't believe that prayer has any effect on the universe that does not stem from the phyical act or subjective experience of praying (if you pray by kneeling in the grass, you get crushed grass; if you believe your praryer will work your attitude changes and may effect outcomes, etc).

It is entierly possible that prayer does work in some way I don't understand and which is for some reason untestable, or for which no valid test has been described. Given both the lack of testable evidence for prayer working, and the number of testable claims that proved false, I doubt prayer works.

I do wonder where you've done debating. You seem to have well formed ideas. Though I disagree with you on much I do respect your skill.

Thank you. I enjoy your posts as well.

 

[redass]

So it's childish to see that the house didn't sell for 26 months and then after one night a group prays for it to sell and it does almost immediately.

It seems the most logical conclusion to state that prayer caused the difference. Any other explanation is less logical and more speculative. On a secondary note, if you can't see the difference between the concept of Santa Claus and God than I think it's hard to have a reasonable discussion. We've flown over the North Pole and seen no evidence. Yet the few folks I know with near death experiences actually described going to heaven. You can speculate I suppose, but it's just that speculation. What they said is possibly true.

If your point is to use an extreme example to sway your position I'll overlook it, but at any rate. I don't understand how you can come to the conclusion based on the evidence presented that prayer didn't make a difference. The examples of this sort of coincedence are too numerous in my experience to view this as superstition.

are you serious? it couldn't be that it took 26 months for the right buyer to come along?
are you saying the buyer was some kind of agent of the jesus?

also, santa works in mysterious ways and doesn't want to be detected. seems more logical than thinking we've seen everything that exists in the north pole.

it's really a matter of whether you want to throw out all verifiable and repeatable facts, events and information and insert whatever randomness you feel like inserting into the world as your reality. I can claim I am half man half bearpig and you can't prove me wrong if I claim I'm also half magical.

also, did OJ do it? cause there's a chance he has a DNA twin running around, which you can't unprove.

 

[zhimbo]

are you serious? it couldn't be that it took 26 months for the right buyer to come along?

Exactly. Let's see the records for ALL the houses that people are trying to sell, having trouble with, and then pray that it gets sold.

If someone wants me to believe "a house sells" qualifies as miraculous intervention, I want to see the results for all the prayers that failed, as well. Judging from all the unsold houses out there, I'd bet there's a lot.

 

[croseiv]

An important thing to remember about prayer is that it allows us to accept God's will, not necessarily our will. Those houses won't sell just because you want them to. People get confused about what prayer is and assume it is to get something from God, when really it's about a realtionship with him. Prayer is a discipline.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... God didn't just take off. ....

Then where is he? What was his part after the big bang? Why did he start it this way? So many other simpler way to start.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...That said, the closest I could come to proving any thing would be the thousands upon thousands of testimonies or unexplainable events linked directly to God in more modern literature and word of mouth. .....

But that is the issue, it is testimonials and they are attested to Him not because of evidence but regardless of evidence.
Unexplained events by whom? Who tested or researched these events and how well was it conducted?
No, there are no credible evidence.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... People survive a car crash and thank God for his intervention when they should really be thanking the engineers at Ford.

Not if they were driving a Toyota.
Or, Toyota has a piece of Ford action?

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

Coincidence, sure, it could be. But it at least makes you think.

Not me, not at all. That is not evidence. But then, I drink oj every morning and so far, no car accident, nor a traffic ticket. Makes one wonder, no?
Besides, it cannot be tested.

 

[mtrycrafts]

/
It seems the most logical conclusion to state that prayer caused the difference. ....

But, do we know absolutely that that was the first prayer session? Or, the others were ignored when the house didn't sell?
Regardless, it is not provable nor testable in that case. However, prayer has been tested with medical patients; no evidence exists that it works, only poorly run and fraudulent testing is available. So, no, that example is unreliable at best.
On the other hand, a test can be set up about future home sales.
Let me ask you. Was it necessary to pray on the spot? How about from a distance, like in another town? If that would work, then there is a possibility that others did just that but still didn't sell. After all, people are asked in church to pray for the sick, and probably in this economy, help with home sales and preventing foreclosures. What are the results???