JTR Speakers. They can't be this good!!!

[jostenmeat]

I guess this is a classic "who gives a crap" situation as far as measurements go... This thread clearly divides the two extremes of audiophileism ...

One wants to listen and enjoy the "sound", and one needs it to be perfect to even think about enjoying it. Nobody is really wrong here, and I respect both sides of the coin. Having heard the TJR and seeing the pictures of RMK's room, I cant imagine not enjoying those speakers in my own home. And, ultimately, because I've never measured a driver or worried about cabinet resonance, I think I'd be freakin thrilled. But, I'm on the wow factor- dynamic side of things which explains why I always seem to like the brighter side of some of the Klipsch offerings. They turn heads not because my friends are like "holy eff, I cant hear any resonance" but they enjoy the presence the speakers have in the room. I'd imagine the RTJ's are the same way.

On the flip side, there is a lot of intrigue to me in the science behind what truly makes a speaker great, ever before it makes a single noise. I can look at every spec of a golf club on paper and tell you if I can hit it well and if It'll feel right. Without a VERY particular blueprint, I would never put it in my golf bag and in almost every case, I've built it. So, I get Chris' insanity and factual based skepticism on the REAL performance of these particular speakers.

I imagine the two sides here never meet, but its interesting to see the polar opposite opinions of what makes a great speaker. For me, a great pair of speakers are like women, the more I drink.... well... you can probably figure the rest out...

I don't really see this as two sides. Well, not quite anyways.

Firstly, I think everybody agrees that reducing audible cabinet resonance is an ideal to strive for.

Secondly, Chris pretty much bashes every darned speaker made. Ok, outside of a handful of items. Let's see. B&W 802 or better. Highly modified bookshelves (cement included) coupled with stereo subwoofers, integrated by a Behringer DCX, using a relatively high xover point, which necessitates close proximity of each sub to respective monitor. Omnipolars of the finest quality, I dunno, prolly the MBLs. Um, I think that's it. Oh yeah, his own speakers.

So, let's say you put all of your eggs into Chris' basket (which I would never argue as an unintelligent thing to do), and bought such a setup. Your problems are still not over. He would probably tell you that you simply do not have the knowledge required to set it all up. So, damned if you did, damned if you didn't.

If you own a top of the line Paradigm, he will bash it.

If you own a top of the line Dynaudio, he will bash it.

If you own a top of the line Martin Logan, he will bash it.

Many of the regulars here understand where he is coming from, or more specifically, the points he is trying to impart. (We've read them many times).

Most of us, maybe all of us, concede that he is the nuttiest. Very smart. Very passionate. For those reasons, we often times will sit back, let him bash our speakers, believe him, give him the benefit of the doubt. Then other times, it just gets old.

 

[lsiberian]

Then other times, it just gets old.

I agree that the scientific mantra does get old to a degree. I believe it may be fun sometime to do a double blind comparison of all these speakers including Chris's.

The reality is that speakers are as much art as they are science. In some ways Engineering is essentially artistically using science to accomplish a given means.

This is why the forum has color's.

I'm sure my speakers resonate like a bell, but I built them with my own hands, blood, sweat, tears, and cussing so I don't care what speaker someone offers me. I won't take it because I poured my life into the ones in my living room.

For others they worked hard to find something that meets aesethetic and sonic perfection in their room. Will they sacrifice that base on the standards of another? I sure hope not.

For me the question is how big of a difference is there between Chris's perfection and other speakers and is it worth the effort to bridget that gap.

I would say in most cases probably not. A hundred dollar pair of speakers is more than sufficient for almost anybody on this planet for home use. Using little bracing and weak dampening they still sound excellent compared to many other methods. But for me I will find out and let you know.

I do like the fact he contributes credible, and excellent suggestions for DIY projects. I've learned a lot from him. I probably could have gotten it the knowledge somewhere else, but the Speaker Gang(Wmax, Swerd, Annukai, TLS Guy, Aversfi) is a large part of why I became a member of this forum.

JM take it easy man, sounds like from the tone of the post you need some theater time.

Rule 1 of this forum if you start getting upset you need to watch some movies or listen to music.

 

[jostenmeat]

JM take it easy man, sounds like from the tone of the post you need some theater time.

Oh, but I am. Who the fk are you?

Rule 1 of this forum if you start getting upset you need to watch some movies or listen to music.

I'm not upset. This is not the first time you've said this to me either. Get off your high horse. I've studied music enough where you'd probably have to quit your job, and go full time for the rest of your life to catch up with me.

 

[Robof83]

JM, I think you may have taken lsiberian's post the wrong way. I didn't really see any negative connotation in his suggestion. I could be wrong, but I felt it was more just a friendly piece of advice. It is pretty hard to convey that type of advice textually without it sounding condescending. I feel as though you wouldn't have taken it so negatively had you been talking to lsiberian in person.

 

[WmAx]

I give advice based on measurable effects that are known to be relevant to human hearing, according to credited perceptual research.

If a particular brand/model gets mentioned, or commented upon me, in a discussion, and I end up discussing why it deviates from ideal, that is meant to be informal/educational, not to be confused with any kind of 'bashing'.

Where I recommend specific things combined with processor(s), twin subs, etc.; I do offer PM set up support. I usually specify this to the person I make the suggestion to.

-Chris

 

[jostenmeat]

JM, I think you may have taken lsiberian's post the wrong way. I didn't really see any negative connotation in his suggestion. I could be wrong, but I felt it was more just a friendly piece of advice. It is pretty hard to convey that type of advice textually without it sounding condescending. I feel as though you wouldn't have taken it so negatively had you been talking to lsiberian in person.

Last time he gave me that exact same advice, again for a situation where I was not upset, I didn't say a single word. Not a peep.

 

[adwilk]

Oh, but I am. Who the fk are you?



I'm not upset. This is not the first time you've said this to me either. Get off your high horse. I've studied music enough where you'd probably have to quit your job, and go full time for the rest of your life to catch up with me.

Hey, Meat.. hows it goin?

Seriously... I see both sides because I'm looking at both sides. I want to understand why Chris would bash all the speakers you mentioned. Dont look at it as bashing. The same damn wedge shaft thats been proven and proven and that even some of the best players in the world use everyday is one I wont touch, Unless i'm taking it out and replacing it. I'm not bashing it, but until perfection is reached, there are only inadequacies. That is the other side and its legitimate. Now, does it get old...? Absofreakinlutely it does.

I like the art vs science perspective and their relationship to development. What if speakers that measured beautifully were awful to listen to? Vice Versa... Still a difference of opinion and proof that we all enjoy things differently. I guess it really isnt fair to tell someone they shouldnt enjoy something for any reason, and if we're going there, then even bose.

 

[lsiberian]

Oh, but I am. Who the fk are you?



I'm not upset. This is not the first time you've said this to me either. Get off your high horse. I've studied music enough where you'd probably have to quit your job, and go full time for the rest of your life to catch up with me.

Take it easy man. I meant no disrespect.

 

[jamie2112]

Its simple really,there are those here who believe cabinet talk is a real quantifiable issue. Then there are others who could care less and just enjoy their speakers.I am a wierd guy when it comes to sound. I am a live and studio engineer and have been for 22 years now. I have 3x platinum record recordings under my belt and years of critical listening in a controlled environment as well. I have listened to many many speakers over the years from $100,000 setups to $1000 setups and the difference was very noticable to me.I totally understand Jostens feelings as I felt like that myself before. I will say the man(Chris) is a very qualified speaker designer although he does "bash" alot of speakers,he is a perfectionist and we all know how that goes....I myself love reading Chris's responses to these threads.Yes he can be a bit opinionated but he is a perfectionist like I said. Chris really doesn't mean to sound like a know it all its just his nature.I can honestly say after speaking with Chris many times that he is a good guy with many crazy ideas that will in all likelyhood work at one point or another. I would really love to hear the JTR's myself as they have been getting great reviews. Like it has been mentioned before the cabs are huge and I would bet the resonance is pretty hardcore at moderate volumes just because of the weight published and the size of the cab.Although that may not matter to most people on here resonance really bothers some people and others could not tell the differance.Everyones ears are different and everybody hears differently than everyone else ,so really its all about if the speakers are pleasent to listen too.I would say that that is most important here is if YOU are happy with the speakers. It doesnt matter what me or Chris or Josten or anyone thinks.As long as you are happy thats really all that matters. I totally think everyone is right here and no need to get uptight about things. We all have our own opinion and thats what its about right????? Yes there are some opinionated folks here but hell, its an open forum and that makes for good debating....right...

 

[adwilk]

Way to go Jamie, you had to go and make a well thought out post with legitimate middle of the road arguments and remind everybody that its ok to have differing opinions... geez thanks a lot...

 

[rmk]

Not to get too heavy with this but as Igore would say "Too late!"

I may be the least brand loyal person on this forum. Although I often solicit the opinions of people I respect ultimately, I really don’t care what anyone thinks about my HT or any individual component. The real professional designers/builders I have come to know and admire in this hobby would never think of commenting on another person’s designs/products in a negative way (with the possible exception of BOSE).

If you present yourself as a designer and builder of audio products that you sell, you should expect to be held to professional standards of behavior. For an audio “professional” to opine and or criticize other products shows a lack of maturity and common sense.

Some here may find it amusing or entertaining, I do not.

 

[WmAx]

I may be the least brand loyal person on this forum. Although I often solicit the opinions of people I respect ultimately, I really don’t care what anyone thinks about my HT or any individual component. The real professional designers/builders I have come to know and admire in this hobby would never think of commenting on another person’s designs/products in a negative way (with the possible exception of BOSE).

If you present yourself as a designer and builder of audio products that you sell, you should expect to be held to professional standards of behavior. For an audio “professional” to opine and or criticize other products shows a lack of maturity and common sense.

Some here may find it amusing or entertaining, I do not.

I guess maybe that comment was meant to apply towards me. Though I'm not sure the above pertains to me... as I don't think selling 3 speaker systems last year makes me a 'pro' yet... LOL. I'm just a regular poster like anyone else, really.

In any case, I speak my mind, always.

Anyways, in regards to 'professionals', not all are so meek. You seem to forget Paul Klipsche... he spoke his mind regularly and even kept a little pin under his jacket corner near his kneck that said 'bullsh*t', that he would flip up to someone when they spoke utter non-sense.

Even if I did turn 'professional', I would not cease my critical analysis. Would people prefer to be ignorant of the facts? A cruddy product is a cruddy product; I don't care who makes it. What do I owe anyone to keep quiet about their cruddy product if the subejct comes up?

-Chris

 

[adwilk]

It is kind of "bad taste" to continually speak ill of what could be a competing product. Better to let your own product and reputation reflect superiority and not your mouth. We know you know your stuff, Chris. Let that be enough sometimes.

 

[jamie2112]

Way to go Jamie, you had to go and make a well thought out post with legitimate middle of the road arguments and remind everybody that its ok to have differing opinions... geez thanks a lot...

LMFAO Adam..............

 

[MidnightSensi]

Even if I did turn 'professional', I would not cease my critical analysis. Would people prefer to be ignorant of the facts? A cruddy product is a cruddy product; I don't care who makes it. What do I owe anyone to keep quiet about their cruddy product if the subejct comes up?

Well, if you haven't heard the JTR's (let alone get the name right) you can't really comment on if they are cruddy or not...

You sing all the lyrics but don't know the song brutha

 

[no. 5]

I guess it really isnt fair to tell someone they shouldnt enjoy something for any reason, and if we're going there, then even bose.

True, but there is a difference between telling someone they shouldn't enjoy something and telling them about a thing's limitations. There is often not a black and white deference between a 'good' speaker and a 'bad' speaker. For example, one speaker has a little too much treble, another is way, way too bright. Are they both equally awful? Hardly, a flaw does not preclude a speaker form being enjoyable to listen to, the extent of the flaw may have an effect, but almost every consumer loudspeaker has flaws; it doesn't necessarily mean they are 'bad', just that they could be a bit better.

Well, if you haven't heard the JTR's (let alone get the name right) you can't really comment on if they are cruddy or not...

It may be useful at this point to see what WmAx specifically said about the JTR's:

A speaker like the JRT is not going to provide the absolute resolution and realism of a live unamplified performance, but they will perform superbly for HT/surround use and amplified live concert recordings/DVDs, etc..

 

[bandphan]

It may be useful at this point to see what WmAx specifically said about the JTR's:

Thats why I posted about the bluegrass recordings i did I keep a select few soundboard and mic recordings for reference, and while I havent heard the 12s, I have the 8s and from a purely subjective standpoint, they did a wonderful job re-creating the concerts. Im bowing out of this thread as nothing productive is comming to fruition.

 

[mike c]

i say recommend something better than the TJR's to RKM

so i can pick up the JRT's on KRM's next overhaul.

50 bucks apiece? (c'mon, i still have shipping)

 

[MidnightSensi]

It may be useful at this point to see what WmAx specifically said about the JTR's:

No, the whole point is that it isn't useful to hear what he said about them because he's never heard them. They could sound "superbly" or they could sound like garbage. He doesn't know, that's the point.

I think we need to make an analogy so we all can understand what I'm talking about here, because obviously the speaker thing isn't abstract enough:

I think that Megan Fox's t*ts have to be fantastic, but I don't really know because I've never seen them. I've seen pictures of her with a shirt on, and it looks like they are pretty nice, but I don't really know if there is an alien head growing out of one, or if they feel like rocks.... or maybe they are the greatest pair in the world... I can talk to you all day about what her t*ts might be like, or what I think they will be like based on what her mum looks like, or my previous experience with t*ts of similar size and shape, or what someone else told me they were like..... but the fact is until I'm bangin' Megan Fox I won't really know.

 

[no. 5]

No, the whole point is that it isn't useful to hear what he said about them because he's never heard them. They could sound "superbly" or they could sound like garbage. He doesn't know, that's the point.

Indeed he does not know, but everyone commenting in this thread that has listened to the JTR's has liked them very much, WmAx conjectured an opinion on their performance based on what he knows about the speakers, that opinion was in fair agreement with those who had listened to the JTR's. I don't recall WmAx saying his comment was anything more than conjecture, and as such, I don't see any reason why a comment by an experienced loudspeaker designer should be immediately dismissed. I am not about to suggest that full stock should be put into all of what he said about the JTR's, after all, he has no first hand experience or relevant data on them, but do you think that observations by knowledgeable people are completely worthless?