JTR Speakers. They can't be this good!!!

H

Hocky

Full Audioholic
I just called my local Best Buy/Magnolia store in Edmond. They said they could NOT even order the 802 Diamond. The highest model they could order is the CM9.:D

So looks like false advertisement to me.:D
That's funny. They do the same thing with ML speakers - they can't get anything in the reserve line up, but they like to talk about them.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
That's funny. They do the same thing with ML speakers - they can't get anything in the reserve line up, but they like to talk about them.
I despise Best Buy now. I hated them before, but now I really despise them. Bastards.:D
 
S

somesnapper

Audioholic Intern
JTR Speakers - Why are they only recommended by forum members for home theater use? As if they arent able to meet both HT and Music needs?
Is there a preconceived notion out there that the speaker has to have low sensitivity to sound good? With such large woofers how can puny towers with 5" drivers even compare? Herm... Someone spill the beans via PM if its too r-rated.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
JTR Speakers - Why are they only recommended by forum members for home theater use?
Because music does not require 105db peaks.

As if they arent able to meet both HT and Music needs?
I'm sure they are, but we're also a lot more critical about music needs. Here are the plain hard facts:

-Few of us have heard the JTRs
-Few of us have seen measurements of the JTRs

Is there a preconceived notion out there that the speaker has to have low sensitivity to sound good?
That's not a preconceived notion, however many high end drivers do have stiff, dense, heavy, cones (IE Magnesium in a Seas Excel) which don't extend too high (due to ringy breakups). Many of the best tweeters (IE RAAL) require higher crossover points to very small midranges in order to have good off-axis response.

With such large woofers how can puny towers with 5" drivers even compare?
It's about tradeoffs. A JTR Triple 8 for example won't have the wide dispersion pattern of a JBL 6332. For music some people prefer the wider dispersion as it creates a more diffuse, large soundstage. For HT, the drier, more intelligible dialogue and dynamics reign supreme, even if you lose some of the musicality.

Larger woofers aren't always an indicator of better performance for one's needs. In many cases of course they are.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Because music does not require 105db peaks.
I disagree. Drum kits, trumpets, grand pianos at twelve feet, almost any big band... there are many examples of music that needs 105db peaks. Not that I'm recommending JTR speakers, just saying that live music can be very loud.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I disagree. Drum kits, trumpets, grand pianos at twelve feet, almost any big band... there are many examples of music that needs 105db peaks. Not that I'm recommending JTR speakers, just saying that live music can be very loud.
If you feel that way, then your revel salons + ATI 3000 are inadequate for the full dynamic range of music ;) because the low sensitivity restricts them to < 100db @ 10ft with that amp and anything you measure above that is just a room effect. :D :p
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yeah, most of us have never even heard (auditioned) them. So please give us some actual measurements of the JTR or 3rd party measurements and we'll put them in consideration.:D
 
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S

somesnapper

Audioholic Intern
Because music does not require 105db peaks.
nope, but its good to know the speaker can handle those peaks if you move to a larger room. Besides, lots of genre's of music are optimized for loud listening.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
nope, but its good to know the speaker can handle those peaks if you move to a larger room.
Okay, since my succinct comment backfired, i'll elaborate:

Our top priorities with movies are dialogue intelligibility, decent tonal accuracy, and ability to handle dynamic range, with a clearly defined peak SPL of 105db @ listening positiing. Being able to justice to a good soundtrack is another, but third. Then you can add surround effects like crickets chirping and LFE effects like helecoptor blades.

Most of our top priorities with Music are things like stereo imaging, absolute tonal accuracy to a variety of instruments, top class resolution of a multitude of simultaneous aural "events", bass definition, soundstage depth.

I would not call the above goals one-and-the-same, though of course speakers exist that can do all of the above pretty well. It'd be great for a pair of speakers to do "everything". But if they can't, then of course it makes sense to guide people towards the tradeoffs that fit a person's requirements.

Just like I wouldn't recommend a pair of 85db sensitive speakers for someone's large, dedicated HT for movies, I would not recommend a pair of JTRs for someone's living room where they sit 8 feet away. Not because of how the JTRs sound, but simply because JTR provides no relevant data for why I SHOULD recommend them for that purpose. They certainly provide relevant data for why I would want them in a large dedicated HT - they can go really, really loud.

That doesn't mean you can't watch movies with 85db sensitive speakers, or you can't listen to music really loud with 95db sensitive speakers. All it means is to figure out where your priorities are at. A movie is actually likely to clip the amp or overload the voice coils of that 85db speaker. That's because if you set the average listening level to around 75db, you need peaks of 95db. Yes music can have dynamic range, and yes preservation of such a thing is important. rmk has shown that he swapped out his Revel Studios for JTRs, for his own purposes.

The objective difference is, we have hard facts about those Revel Studios that translate decently to what a person should hear in an audition, and we have ...subjective opinions... about the JTRs, plus the fact that they can go loud.

That's not a knock on the JTR speakers, but it is sufficient justification for us not be recommending these speakers all the time.

For what it's worth I'm often recommending the JBL LSR 6332 speakers for some people's requirements. It's not because they're necessarily subjectively better sounding speakers than philharmonics at 70db or JTRs at 90db, but because those will handle dynamic range well, while fulfilling basic objective SQ requirements I set for a speaker.

Sometimes you have to look at the objective facts.

So what are you looking at???

Sorry to any JTR owners out there. This doesn't mean I don't value your subjective impressions. I'm just saying that there's positive subjective impressions about a lot of stuff out there. How does one narrow it down? That's why I have no qualms with suggesting JTR for movies or ADTG's kareoke, but it'd be a very ambitious statement to recommend them for music unheard and unmeasured.

Besides, lots of genre's of music are optimized for loud listening.
If you're talking about compressed music, then it's arguable that you don't need 105db peaks. Dynamic range is actually best reserved for quieter music, that can get loud instantly. If music is always loud, then we turn the volume down, not up, so it might hang around 80 to 90db but never higher or lower. A movie or classical performance might go anywhere from 55db to 100db at the blink of an eye.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
That's not a knock on the JTR speakers, but it is sufficient justification for us not be recommending these speakers all the time.

Sorry to any JTR owners out there. This doesn't mean I don't value your subjective impressions. I'm just saying that there's positive subjective impressions about a lot of stuff out there. How does one narrow it down? That's why I have no qualms with suggesting JTR for movies or ADTG's kareoke, but it'd be a very ambitious statement to recommend them for music unheard and unmeasured.
Yeah, you better not knock on my karaokes. :D

If Nuance thinks the JTR sound as good as Philharmonic or Salk, I'll buy a pair of the Triple 8 for karaoke.:D
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
Yeah, you better not knock on my karaokes. :D

If Nuance thinks the JTR sound as good as Philharmonic or Salk, I'll buy a pair of the Triple 8 for karaoke.:D
I'm going in as unbiased as I can, but no one can remove all bias. It's the Triple 12's I'll be hearing on Saturday, by the way.:) Mark Seaton is also trying to scrounge up a pair of Catalysts too, so we'll have the hi-fi and hi-sensitivity aspects covered. If only we had a pair of Revel Salon2's. :D Man...what a day it will be.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I'm going in as unbiased as I can, but no one can remove all bias. It's the Triple 12's I'll be hearing on Saturday, by the way.:) Mark Seaton is also trying to scrounge up a pair of Catalysts too, so we'll have the hi-fi and hi-sensitivity aspects covered. If only we had a pair of Revel Salon2's. :D Man...what a day it will be.
It'll be fun for sure.

I just don't see how the JTR & Seaton could be as ultra detailed as the Phil2 & Salk, but I could be 100% wrong.

Last time I experienced an ultra sensitive speakers was the $1,500/pr Yamaha Pro Cab speakers that were rated at 135dB SPL. I returned them the next day because the P362 were much better.:D

DenPureSound has the very sensitive Klipsch and he says the DefTech BP7001SC has more detail than the Klipsch.

So I look forward to the gang's impressions of the JTR & Seaton.
 
rmk

rmk

Audioholic Chief
I see your point. My subjective comments should not be enough justification for someone to spend thousands of dollars on loudspeakers. I was able to hear the JTR's while I still had the Revels. I heard them at the home of someone who had gone from some very nice Ariel 7's to the Triple 12's.

I would like to see detailed measurements myself and I know Jeff P plans on sending some of his speakers for review and 3rd party testing this summer. He is essentially a one man show and there are time and resource issues that larger companies do not have. I am also looking forward to the Wisconsin GTG opinions.

Regardless, I love the JTR speakers (and subs) and finally have the system I have always wanted for movies and music. YMMV.:)

Okay, since my succinct comment backfired, i'll elaborate:

Our top priorities with movies are dialogue intelligibility, decent tonal accuracy, and ability to handle dynamic range, with a clearly defined peak SPL of 105db @ listening positiing. Being able to justice to a good soundtrack is another, but third. Then you can add surround effects like crickets chirping and LFE effects like helecoptor blades.

Most of our top priorities with Music are things like stereo imaging, absolute tonal accuracy to a variety of instruments, top class resolution of a multitude of simultaneous aural "events", bass definition, soundstage depth.

I would not call the above goals one-and-the-same, though of course speakers exist that can do all of the above pretty well. It'd be great for a pair of speakers to do "everything". But if they can't, then of course it makes sense to guide people towards the tradeoffs that fit a person's requirements.

Just like I wouldn't recommend a pair of 85db sensitive speakers for someone's large, dedicated HT for movies, I would not recommend a pair of JTRs for someone's living room where they sit 8 feet away. Not because of how the JTRs sound, but simply because JTR provides no relevant data for why I SHOULD recommend them for that purpose. They certainly provide relevant data for why I would want them in a large dedicated HT - they can go really, really loud.

That doesn't mean you can't watch movies with 85db sensitive speakers, or you can't listen to music really loud with 95db sensitive speakers. All it means is to figure out where your priorities are at. A movie is actually likely to clip the amp or overload the voice coils of that 85db speaker. That's because if you set the average listening level to around 75db, you need peaks of 95db. Yes music can have dynamic range, and yes preservation of such a thing is important. rmk has shown that he swapped out his Revel Studios for JTRs, for his own purposes.

The objective difference is, we have hard facts about those Revel Studios that translate decently to what a person should hear in an audition, and we have ...subjective opinions... about the JTRs, plus the fact that they can go loud.

That's not a knock on the JTR speakers, but it is sufficient justification for us not be recommending these speakers all the time.

For what it's worth I'm often recommending the JBL LSR 6332 speakers for some people's requirements. It's not because they're necessarily subjectively better sounding speakers than philharmonics at 70db or JTRs at 90db, but because those will handle dynamic range well, while fulfilling basic objective SQ requirements I set for a speaker.

Sometimes you have to look at the objective facts.

So what are you looking at???

Sorry to any JTR owners out there. This doesn't mean I don't value your subjective impressions. I'm just saying that there's positive subjective impressions about a lot of stuff out there. How does one narrow it down? That's why I have no qualms with suggesting JTR for movies or ADTG's kareoke, but it'd be a very ambitious statement to recommend them for music unheard and unmeasured.



If you're talking about compressed music, then it's arguable that you don't need 105db peaks. Dynamic range is actually best reserved for quieter music, that can get loud instantly. If music is always loud, then we turn the volume down, not up, so it might hang around 80 to 90db but never higher or lower. A movie or classical performance might go anywhere from 55db to 100db at the blink of an eye.
 

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