Integra Research RDC-7.1

pepar · Feb 19, 2004

Razvanel : <font color='#000000'>pepar, go to www.audioasylum.com and check out the SACD section, you'll find all the info you need there.

I'm into European music, almost all my SACD's are European. I buy them from www.amazon.de

The only DVD-A I have is Blue Man Group's Audio, amazing 5.1 mix.

As for SACD, a must have is Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon.

R</font>

<font color='#000000'>Thank you.</font>

Razvanel · Feb 19, 2004

<font color='#000000'>Gene,

"Any Receiver/Processor that will soon be shipping that can decode SACD will still have to convert DSD to PCM to handle bass management and digitial delay compenstation."

According to the Audioholics article on the new RDC-7.1, the new IR preamp "decodes SACD in native DSD format without PCM conversion".

R</font>

pepar · Feb 19, 2004

Razvanel : <font color='#000000'>Gene,

"Any Receiver/Processor that will soon be shipping that can decode SACD will still have to convert DSD to PCM to handle bass management and digitial delay compenstation."

According to the Audioholics article on the new RDC-7.1, the new IR preamp "decodes SACD in native DSD format without PCM conversion".

R</font>

<font color='#000000'>Razvanel - you do not miss a thing!</font>

SGoff · Feb 19, 2004

Razvanel : <font color='#000000'>Gene,

"Any Receiver/Processor that will soon be shipping that can decode SACD will still have to convert DSD to PCM to handle bass management and digitial delay compenstation."

According to the Audioholics article on the new RDC-7.1, the new IR preamp "decodes SACD in native DSD format without PCM conversion".

R</font>

<font color='#000000'>It is one thing to decode DSD natively, which will likely be possible with the RDC-7.1, since its Wolfson DACs work with both PCM and DSD inputs, but it is another thing to permit full bass management and time alignment. Most DVD players and processors that can handle both must convert DSD to PCM to provide time alignment, and the bass management for DSD is still quite rudimentary, usually a fixed frequency of 80 to 120 Hz, with 6 db per octave high-pass and 12 db per octave low pass. See, for example, the Denon 5900, which can decode DSD and provide this sort of rudimentary bass management but converts to PCM for full bass management and time alignment. This is a known limitation of the DSD format, though Sony claims that its latest DSD decoder can do both bass management and time alignment, there are many skeptics.

Moreover, it is debatable whether well-done conversion from DSD to PCM is audible, and it should be noted that many SACDs start out life as PCM recordings and many undergo a DSD to PCM to DSD conversion along the way because of the lack of DSD tools for mixing and manipulation of audio tracks.</font>

Guest · Feb 19, 2004

<font color='#000000'>"As for the comments about dealer cost and selling it directly to those doing upgrades, this does make sense.  But again I need to play counter point.  I wonder if this may present a problem with dealers as it can potentially take away some of their business.  IR doesn't exactly have a huge dealer base like some of the bigger names, or even Onkyo themselves.  So they probably have to walk a fine line between satisfying owners and dealers as both are how they sell their products."

Well, in my case, a trade-in is not going to "take away some of their business" b/c if there's no trade in/upgrade, I'm not buying any more IR products.  Besides, any trade-in performed 'directly' with IR could easily be 'assigned' to either the original dealer or the nearest dealer if the person sold the thing or moved.  From there, any additional modules would be purchased from that dealer, keeping the channel happy.

Put another way, IR and its dealer channel can either lose me as a customer, in which case I will spend exactly $0 with them going forward, or keep me as a customer, in which case I will continue to spend $ with them: first toward the tradein (at or around mfr cost on the 7.1), then at or around MSRP for additional modules, and for a second 7.1 for a 2nd home theater.

TM</font>

pepar · Feb 19, 2004

SGoff : <table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote (Razvanel @ Feb. 19 2004,12:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Gene,

"Any Receiver/Processor that will soon be shipping that can decode SACD will still have to convert DSD to PCM to handle bass management and digitial delay compenstation."

According to the Audioholics article on the new RDC-7.1, the new IR preamp "decodes SACD in native DSD format without PCM conversion".

R

It is one thing to decode DSD natively, which will likely be possible with the RDC-7.1, since its Wolfson DACs work with both PCM and DSD inputs, but it is another thing to permit full bass management and time alignment. Most DVD players and processors that can handle both must convert DSD to PCM to provide time alignment, and the bass management for DSD is still quite rudimentary, usually a fixed frequency of 80 to 120 Hz, with 6 db per octave high-pass and 12 db per octave low pass. See, for example, the Denon 5900, which can decode DSD and provide this sort of rudimentary bass management but converts to PCM for full bass management and time alignment. This is a known limitation of the DSD format, though Sony claims that its latest DSD decoder can do both bass management and time alignment, there are many skeptics.

Moreover, it is debatable whether well-done conversion from DSD to PCM is audible, and it should be noted that many SACDs start out life as PCM recordings and many undergo a DSD to PCM to DSD conversion along the way because of the lack of DSD tools for mixing and manipulation of audio tracks.</td></tr></table>
I really like Sony (no baloney), but I have the sheets with them inventing incompatible formats and then using their market clout to jam everybody with them, Memory Stick and DSD being the latest examples. How much sense does it make for PCM recordings to be converted to DSD (and then most likely back to PCM) just so Sony can play its own game?

I've avoided Memory Stick memory so far and may just avoid SACD's as well.</font>

SGoff · Feb 19, 2004

<font color='#000000'>Unfortunately, SACD has the better inventory of music I'd want to hear, and many more titles, but this may start changing this year. The beauty of the universal player is the ability to play all of these formats, and DVD-Video to boot.</font>

pepar · Feb 19, 2004

SGoff : <font color='#000000'>Unfortunately, SACD has the better inventory of music I'd want to hear, and many more titles, but this may start changing this year. The beauty of the universal player is the ability to play all of these formats, and DVD-Video to boot.</font>

<font color='#000000'>Bass management and time alignment issues aside, I simply cannot bring myself to decode hi-res digital audio into analog inside a universal player that costs 1/3 to 1/5 of what my pre/pro costs.  Until I can have a digital link from player to pre/pro - Firewire - and decode it where it should be decoded, I'll play DVD-A's on an HTPC with an Audigy 2 ZS.

But that's just me.</font>

gene · Feb 19, 2004

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">According to the Audioholics article on the new RDC-7.1, the new IR preamp "decodes SACD in native DSD format without PCM conversion".</td></tr></table>

I was about to reply to this concern until SGoff took the words right out of my mouth  

Pepar;  trying to rationalize the price difference between a DVD player and processor to determine fidelity is counterproductive at best. There is much more in a processor and thus why the price is higher.  The DAC's in a top DVD player can be on equal footing or outperform those in a higher priced processor.  But I do agree with you, I want all the D/A conversions done in the receiver so that I have 1 connection, and full control of bass management and level control at one demarcation point once and for all!</font>

Guest · Feb 19, 2004

<font color='#000000'>"Put another way, IR and its dealer channel can either lose me as a customer, in which case I will spend exactly $0 with them going forward, or keep me as a customer, in which case I will continue to spend $ with them"

Exactamente! Give me a trade-in Integra Research and I'll be your customer for life! No trade-in, no more Integra Research for me...

Che</font>

pepar · Feb 19, 2004

gene : Pepar; trying to rationalize the price difference between a DVD player and processor to determine fidelity is counterproductive at best. There is much more in a processor and thus why the price is higher. The DAC's in a top DVD player can be on equal footing or outperform those in a higher priced processor. But I do agree with you, I want all the D/A conversions done in the receiver so that I have 1 connection, and full control of bass management and level control at one demarcation point once and for all!

DVD-A and SACD w/o Firewire is a half-baked solution, as is, IMO, SACD's w/o the DSD supporting gear and tools to make content "DSD/DSD/DSD."

I tend to over-simplify for argument's sake sometimes.

But in my defense, once the Firewire interface is in place, the cost of players can fall as they ne longer need expensive DAC's. I avoid the bleeding edge to avoid technology whiplash.</font>

gene · Feb 20, 2004

<font color='#000000'>Not sure about half baked.  The audio I am hearing from the Denon DVD-5900 doing SACD is nothing short of stellar!

My only gripe is dealing with configuration differences between analog for SACD and Dlink for DVD-A.  Though this problem will be short lived soon on their newer products forthcoming.</font>

pepar · Feb 20, 2004

gene : <font color='#000000'>Not sure about half baked. The audio I am hearing from the Denon DVD-5900 doing SACD is nothing short of stellar!

My only gripe is dealing with configuration differences between analog for SACD and Dlink for DVD-A. Though this problem will be short lived soon on their newer products forthcoming.</font>

<font color='#000000'>Stellar?  Sure, but it's not "all it can be," ergo my half-baked reference.  The setup problems and other "issues" are bonuses.</font>

Guest · Feb 22, 2004

<font color='#000000'>So, I guess this means that IR sold about ten RDC-7's and we'd all like a trade in?

TM</font>

pepar · Feb 22, 2004

Guest : So, I guess this means that IR sold about ten RDC-7's and we'd all like a trade in?

TM

If they only sold 10 then they should give those owners new 7.1's and bus them around the country on a whirlwind promotional tour for IR and the new RDC-7.1.

That could happen, right?

</font>

Guest · Feb 22, 2004

<font color='#000000'>Here is more on how Sunfire handled their trade-in programs ( taken from AVS):

"The "upgrades" which were really trade-in programs in the past for Sunfire were: TG1 to TG2: $1000 plus TG1, shipped factory direct; TG2 to TG3: $1800 plus TG2; it was originally announced as a factory direct thing, then they pulled it off the website and implemented it through their dealer network"

Sunfire did it twice, why wouldn't IR be able to do it? Note that the Sunfire processors were not even advertised as being "future-proof" and yet Sunfire decided to offer trade-in programs.

R</font>

Guest · Feb 22, 2004

<font color='#000000'>Fosgate will also offer a trade-in program ( trade-in the Fosgate FAP-T1 processor for a new FAP-T1+):

"The FAP-T1+ will have a number of hardware and feature enhancements in addition to PL2x.

Once everything is locked down we'll announce a program for trade ins. The number of hardware implementations, such as the RS232 port, a change in the mix of coaxial/optical inputs, make individual upgrades impractical. Rest assured the trade in cost will be reasonable and we will announce the full list of features and improvements once formally approved.

Thanks.

Charles Wood
Fosgate Audionics
Rockford Home Group"</font>

pepar · Feb 22, 2004

<font color='#000000'>(R - I thought you were registered.)</font>

Guest · Feb 22, 2004

<font color='#000000'>"R - I thought you were registered"

?

R</font>

pepar · Feb 22, 2004

Guest : <font color='#000000'>"R - I thought you were registered"

?

R</font>

<font color='#000000'>Some of your posts listed you as registered, which you said you were, and now you're unregistered.</font>

Integra Research RDC-7.1

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SGoff

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Audioholics Master Chief

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gene

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pepar

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pepar

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