Harley's vs. Japanese bikes & Bose systems.

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Oooh Burn!

 

[flyv65]

YUP, im quite positive that you dont care,right from the start of this thread you've thrown in little digs to all who oppose your line of thought,your a doo gooder who wants everybody else to conform to your thinking & since you teach a riders saftey course (big deal) your now the expert who is droping names & quoting studies that dont mean squat in real life,just because a guy makes his living doing something does not mean its a worthy cause & in your case teaching 40 year old newbiees how to ride just because the state made it mandatory for such classes has gone to your head.

I can think of worse things than being called a "doo gooder", and I can understand you're being threatened because your ego is taking a beating on this; but I can't think of a state that mandates motorcycle training.

i dont like you or people like you who dance around & mince words or hide behind smily faces instead of comming right out & saying what they mean,the internet has done wonders for the arrogance of people like you.

I started out "tap dancing" around this subject out of concern to not make you feel like a complete twit for your the position you were taking, but your own condecending attitude showed I was wasting my time in that respect. Normally with pompous windbags I shut them up quickly, but I chose to wait untill I was sure of you: after all, I hadn't met you in person and you might be a decent fellow who just wasn't terribly clear with the written word. My first reaction appears to be correct.

You want to tell me about any of your real life riding experiences where you had to make a choice?

What's the point? You don't care and won't learn from them so why bother?

Leave my children out of your snide remarks.

Then don't hold them up as shining examples of your training skills.

 

[mulester7]

You want to tell me about any of your real life riding experiences where you had to make a choice?

What's the point? You don't care and won't learn from them so why bother?

.....Fly, I'd like to hear some of your real life riding experiences where you had to make a choice....I know I've certainly had a couple of close calls myself....ya' might talk me into one of these courses before this thread is done......

 

[JoeE SP9]

A course in motorcycle riding should be required for anyone who wants a motorcycle license.

If you ride and don't wear a helmet; you have on your head exactly what you think your brain is worth.

 

[highfihoney]

I can think of worse things than being called a "doo gooder", and I can understand you're being threatened because your ego is taking a beating on this; but I can't think of a state that mandates motorcycle training.



I started out "tap dancing" around this subject out of concern to not make you feel like a complete twit for your the position you were taking, but your own condecending attitude showed I was wasting my time in that respect. Normally with pompous windbags I shut them up quickly, but I chose to wait untill I was sure of you: after all, I hadn't met you in person and you might be a decent fellow who just wasn't terribly clear with the written word. My first reaction appears to be correct.



What's the point? You don't care and won't learn from them so why bother?



Then don't hold them up as shining examples of your training skills.

Just as i thought,no experiences,weather it be while driving a car or a bike there is a time where every driver knows that there is nothing they can do to avoid impact,i know what i would do & have done when the time comes,once again you hide behind clever words.

While your at it lets see a pic of you with that big machine of yours that you so skillfully navigate.

 

[JAD2]

PS: In NY state, if you "lay it down" before you come into contact with the offending car (or truck, house, fence, whatever you were gonna hit), you have legally caused the accident to yourself and what you or your bike strikes becomes the secondary party in the accident scene. (My lawyer explained this to me).

In other words: If blue hair & Q-tips turns left in front of you and you "lay it down", The accident is legally your fault even if the bike, or you, ends up under the offending car. No class action lawsuit, no medical bills paid, do not pass go, do not collect $200. They could even sue you for damaging their property! (and they probably will... people suck like that).

So please, keep the rubber side down in NY. That way you can take legal action if you survive.

BULLHOCKEY!!!!!

The person I referenced as one to survive laying down is my brother inlaw. He was driving down the street in the country area he lives in doing around 60 MPH. And old man in his 70's ran the stop sign at a intersection and Todd layed his bike down to lesson the impact as he was taught to do at Brockport Univeristy bike driving program , which he was forced, by court to take after he was caught doing some stupid Biker stunts.
Being that he layed the bike down , he ended up just rolling down the highway since the car ended up going past his lane, but his Harley slammed just behind the drivers door.
One leg totally destroyed and is now pinned and he can walk. The other broken, 3 ribs, punctured lung and some other minors injuries.
Driver was ticketed for not stopping and one other minor violation, but was listed at fault for the accident 100% so. He's allready finished court, won period. All costs from that point on having anything to do with the accident are being covered by that mans insurance.
Not once was it even mentioned what you just finished saying and why would Brockport State teach such moves???

 

[gmichael]

I'm a BRC instructor and it seems over the last few years we've had to add on more and more classes to meet demand of the students, most of which show up wearing HD jackets, t-shirts, and chaps.

This part says the following to me. More new Harley riders are taking classes on safe riding than new rocket riders are. Could be wrong, but that's how it sounds to me.

I haven't had a chance to do a search on the numbers. It will be interesting to see.

 

[masak_aer]

I've never taken bike lessons and i still live despite numerous close calls i've had. I use my brain when i ride and drive. When i have to hit something, i make sure i'll survive either i have to lay down my bike or hit my brakes or even have to fly over my bike, i make sure i use my gymnastics ability to lessen the force of impacts (don't know where that comes from).

I think logics have to come first. If you think you can't handle it, don't ride to a speed you don't think you can handle. If i ride at 60, 80 or 100, i make sure, if i have to do an emergency stoppage, i know what to do and where to go. I, for the longest time, like to speed but i always look around for somewhere along the road to where i can crash my bike into with less injuries and harm to others if i can't stop in time. See the difference? I have choices...if i choose to ride fast with no safe braking distance then anything happens, my fault. Use your brain and logics, theories won't work at emergency times. Your brain's not fast enough to mine the theories saved in your brain and put them into action. If you are SLOW UP THERE, ride SLOWLY!! If you can think and react FAST, then you can try to ride faster ! ( I know Sheep would think he is the latter.. as he may actually be).

I understand why JAD like to generalize all the hype about HD and their marketing ploy as well as Jap with its buy use and throw stuff. BECAUSE it is easier...he doesn't have to do a research or so whatever. Go on with your rage to Jap bikers Jad (I begins to wonder if you need anger management. Whenever i read your post, i feel like somebody is shouting in my ears. Kinda like a woman *****ing, very irritating. I don't exactly know why. Words are sure to have its own tone, i guess).

HiFi, i believe you have experiences as well as Flyv. Your 'biking' accident experiences may even be more than Flyv. As you can see, sometimes we just have to lay down our bikes because we are too close to the vehicle in front of us, but somehow it's our own fault as well as we don't keep a safe distance most of the time. I, for one, will brake first THEN if my brain tells me it's won't make in in time, I lay down my bike and i will let go of it. While it all happens in a split second, i always look for ways to protect my body from hard impacts. So far, i sustained only minor injuries, never broken bones. How fast i rode the bikes? 60s may be 65s at point of impact at the most (never got a chance to really look at my speedometer when i crashed). Do we need an accident training? May be I am not sure though.

 

[braminator]

Hey GMICHAEL

Point 1 and 5 are wrong on Harleys not being the fastest mototcycles.

Now before the argument starts I quote " I said the fastest" not the best handleing. Two very different things.

Now we all know that Kawi and Suzuki have the fastes STREET bikes.

But the fastest motorcycle in the quarter mile is a HARLEY/BUELL's all the time
These are the recent numbers from lastweeks event.

1 204 Matt Smith, King NC, Buell 6.994 188.70 188.70
2 1 Andrew Hines, Brownsburg IN, Harley V-Rod 7.020 189.68 189.68
3 10 Karen Stoffer, Smith NV, Suzuki 7.041 189.23 189.23
4 5 Chip Ellis, Americus GA, Buell 7.053 185.56 188.52
5 4 Ryan Schnitz, Decatur IN, Buell 7.069 187.05 187.70

Andrew Hines' V-Rod® set the NHRA Pro-Stock Motorcycle record with a 6.991 (ET)

So HD have a plus and so do Japs.

 

[gmichael]

Hey GMICHAEL

Point 1 and 5 are wrong on Harleys not being the fastest mototcycles.

Now before the argument starts I quote " I said the fastest" not the best handleing. Two very different things.

Now we all know that Kawi and Suzuki have the fastes STREET bikes.

But the fastest motorcycle in the quarter mile is a HARLEY/BUELL's all the time
These are the recent numbers from lastweeks event.

1 204 Matt Smith, King NC, Buell 6.994 188.70 188.70
2 1 Andrew Hines, Brownsburg IN, Harley V-Rod 7.020 189.68 189.68
3 10 Karen Stoffer, Smith NV, Suzuki 7.041 189.23 189.23
4 5 Chip Ellis, Americus GA, Buell 7.053 185.56 188.52
5 4 Ryan Schnitz, Decatur IN, Buell 7.069 187.05 187.70

Andrew Hines' V-Rod® set the NHRA Pro-Stock Motorcycle record with a 6.991 (ET)

So HD have a plus and so do Japs.

Sorry, maybe I should have qualified that I was only speaking in terms of the average street bikes being used.

 

[braminator]

Hey Joe SP9

Buell (HD) makes a 492cc sport bikes called the blast. So this fits your catagory.

Keep in mind a sporster is 883cc which is almost double the Buells. But they are about the same size dimentionally.

So there is always a bike to fit your needs.

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Should we really be using alcohol powered NHRA drag-bikes to showcase Harley's "performance"? These bikes have no stock factory parts and aren't legal to ride on any road I'm aware of. (Is there an all-stock catergory now? I haven't been to the races in 10+ years).

It would be a similar stance to say Chevrolet has higher performance cars than Ferrari or Lambourghini because there happens to be a drag racer somewhere with a 502 turning-out 6's in the 1/4 mile.

 

[braminator]

Ok to make it fair for RockNroll Ninja. Here is a street legal bike from HD that does the 1/4 mile in less then 10 seconds and you can buy it anytime.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/Content/Pages/Racing/vrxse_destroyer.jsp?locale=en_US

Yes a few, very few stock Jap bikes can do the 1/4 in ubder 10 seconds.

The idea was to show that HD's can be faster then most any other bike.

Your comparrison of cars would not be correct either. Some of the cheapest showroom stock cars are equally as fast as your $100k. Examples:

1.$33k Subie WRX STI. 300hp 0-60 4.7sec.
2.$32k Mitsu Evo 286hp 0-60 4.6
3.$77k Porsche 911 Carrera 4 325hp 0-60 4.9
4.$126k Mercedes SL55AMG 493hp 0-60 4.5
5.$265k Ferrari 612 Scaglietti 540hp 0-60 4.1

So as you see your case in not rellevant. If we compare dollar to dollar, I could take the WRX and spend $15k or so and be able to beat anything possible on the road and it could handle as well.

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Ok to make it fair for RockNroll Ninja. Here is a street legal bike from HD that does the 1/4 mile in less then 10 seconds and you can buy it anytime.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/Content/Pages/Racing/vrxse_destroyer.jsp?locale=en_US

That is not a street legal motorcycle. Why would you even bring that up?

Yes a few, very few stock Jap bikes can do the 1/4 in ubder 10 seconds.

Every japanese motorcycle company has at least 1 streetbike that can do the 1/4 in 10 seconds. These are "real" bikes with turnsignals, kickstands, suspensions, and everything.

So as you see your case in not rellevant. If we compare dollar to dollar, I could take the WRX and spend $15k or so and be able to beat anything possible on the road and it could handle as well.

OK, I'll have to explain this. You argue that HD are the highest performance bikes because in some self contained universe of drag-racing, it is possible, at great expense to build a faster bike around modified HD engines that in no way can relate to performance characteristics of any production roadbike ever.

Then I argue that the same train of thought would mean Chevrolet also self the highest performance vehicles in the world since somebody has built a 1/4 drag racer using a motor that is also based on an existing engine, even though it contains no factory parts, and would be undrivable for any real-world application. Ferrari and Lambo' were used as an example, not because they cost more (my arguement had nothing to do with money), but because they must produce lower-performance vehicles than Chevrolet, because they do NOT have a 1/4 racer that breaks 6's. (Of course they actually may have one, but I've never heard about it.)

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Being that he layed the bike down , he ended up just rolling down the highway since the car ended up going past his lane, but his Harley slammed just behind the drivers door.
One leg totally destroyed and is now pinned and he can walk. The other broken, 3 ribs, punctured lung and some other minors injuries.

Most people would take that as a perfectly good example of why you should NOT "lay it down".

2 months ago I "rode it out" against a Ford Taurus at @60mph and am fully recovered now except for scars, and some numbness in my shin. I have pictures if you want to see them.

In 1999 I hit a deer, also at 60, without the benefit of panic breaking even (It was 1am, I didn't see what hit me until after the accident). In that case I had a broken leg.

In both of my accidents I had a much better outcome by not "laying it down", and your example has done nothing but reinforce my opinion that it is a worse-than-nothing option in the real world.

PS: I was also wearing DOT approved helmets in both incidents and suffered no head or neck trauma, incase anyone wants to make an ignorant comment about helmets "cause more damage than they protect against".

 

[flyv65]

Just as i thought,no experiences,weather it be while driving a car or a bike there is a time where every driver knows that there is nothing they can do to avoid impact,i know what i would do & have done when the time comes,once again you hide behind clever words.

While your at it lets see a pic of you with that big machine of yours that you so skillfully navigate.

I had originally decided to stop responding to your posts since that just seems to upset your sense of emotional equilibrium, but then I would feel a certain amount of responsiblility for any injuries incurred by readers following your spurious riding advice.

Whether driving a car or riding a bike, there is a time when every poorly trained rider/driver or experienced rider/driver who has forgotten their training knows that there is nothing they can do to avoid an impact. If you'rte on a bike and you have the time to decide to lay the bike down, and then actually have the time to lay it down, you would have been better served by braking, particularly on a cruiser (the newer ones have double discs up front that, in combination with the cruiser geometry, allows it to slow faster, easier than most standards or sportbikes).

Now ideally, a well trained rider is constantly Searching for hazards, Evaluating response options, and Executing based on this information (this SEE procedure used to be called SIPDE back in the day, but two less steps is faster to do and easier to remember). Did somebody come flying out of a side street surprising the Bejeezus out of you? Why were you surprised? Didn't you anticipate that possibility? If you had, you might have decided to leave the brake covered if moving through the intersection from a stop, or perhaps simple roll off the throttle if already moving (or perhaps neither of those-managing risk is ultimatly the rider's decision).

In any case, providing you *have* time to react, a motorcycle will always slow more efficiently and quickly on its tires rather than its side (in some instances, a bike can pick up speed after being dropped).

Bryan

 

[JoeE SP9]

Hey Joe SP9

Buell (HD) makes a 492cc sport bikes called the blast. So this fits your catagory.

Keep in mind a sporster is 883cc which is almost double the Buells. But they are about the same size dimentionally.

So there is always a bike to fit your needs.

Right!
I'm going to go from a wonderfully smooth V4 to a single cylinder thumper.
I may just look for another Yamaha RZ-350. That was always my favorite bike. I regret ever selling my yellow Kenny Roberts special.

 

[braminator]

Hey RocknRoll- Did you bother to read the HD dragster?

That is not a street legal motorcycle. Why would you even bring that up?

A limited quantity of VRXSE Screamin' Eagle® V-Rod® Destroyer™ models will be produced. Contact your local Harley-Davidson dealer for a chance to be one of the first to own this limited quantity machine.

So you see, if you go to your dealer you might be able to get one.

Yes all Jap bikes have 1 that will go into the 10's. But now consider the 200lbs weight disadvantage a harley as to still do it in under 10 seconds.

OK, I'll have to explain this. You argue that HD are the highest performance bikes

No I did not. I stated a fact
Where did you get this from? I never said that. But hey if Jap bikes are so fast why are they NOT WINNING IN DRAG RACING.

Then I argue that the same train of thought would mean Chevrolet also self the highest performance vehicles in the world since somebody has built a 1/4 drag racer using a motor that is also based on an existing engine, even though it contains no factory parts, and would be undrivable for any real-world application. Ferrari and Lambo' were used as an example, not because they cost more (my arguement had nothing to do with money), but because they must produce lower-performance vehicles than Chevrolet, because they do NOT have a 1/4 racer that breaks 6's. (Of course they actually may have one, but I've never heard about it.)

What does this have to do with any of this.

Compare apples to apples and the numbers speak for themselves.

 

[gmichael]

From: http://www.da.wvu.edu/XMLParser/printstory.phtml?id=23456

Monday Sep 11, 2006 Headline News


Motorcycle deaths higher in states without helmet laws
By Daniel Davis
Staff Writer
States without laws requiring helmets for motorcycle riders have a higher rate of deaths and life-changing injuries, according to a study conducted by Dr. Jeffrey Coben, director of the Center for Rural Emergency Medicine at West Virginia University.
"We looked at hospitalizations resulting in motorcycle injuries in 33 states and compared different injuries in relationship to the helmet laws of that state," Coben said. "The data is maintained in a federal database that we collaborated with federal investigators to obtain. The participating 33 states submitted their information to that database which we could then access."
The study found that in 2004 more than 4,000 people were killed in motorcycle accidents, an 89 percent increase since 1997. More than 76,000 people were injured due to motorcycle accidents.
Of the 33 states that were surveyed, 17 had universal helmet laws, 13 had partial use laws and three did not require the use of a motorcycle helmet.
Universal helmet laws require all riders to wear a helmet, regardless of age. Partial use laws require riders under the age of 18 or 21 to wear a helmet.
However, the study found that an increasing number of states are allowing riders to ride helmetless.
Almost 9 percent of all U.S. traffic deaths are a result of motorcycle riding. States without universal helmet laws have a higher number of motorcycle crash-related deaths and of crash victims diagnosed with brain injuries, according to the study.
Approximately 16.5 percent of victims were diagnosed with a brain injury in states that did not require helmets compared to 11.5 percent in states that had laws making helmet use mandatory, the study showed.
Helmets are 37 percent effective in preventing fatal injuries, while the absence of a helmet leads to a 41 percent increase in the risk of type 1 brain injury, according to the study.
Type 1 brain injury consists of paralysis, severe cognitive defects and a persistent vegetative state.
The study also found that laws enforcing partial use were not effective. It showed no correlation between age and rates of death or injury among states that have partial use laws and states that don't.
daniel.davis@mail.wvu.edu


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Have an idea for an article? E-Mail your suggestion to DANewsroom@mail.wvu.edu


OK, I give up. I couldn't find anything on the stats of Harley acid ends vs. sports bike accidents. Best I could come up with were a few other forums who were asking the same questions and didn't get answers either. But the older trend is very real. Many over 40 types buying bikes with no experience. And they tend to get hurt more because they are older and all that goes along with being older. Slower reflexes, slower recover rates, and on & on.

Plenty on helmet stats though. The one above is just one of many. Please, wear your helmets guys. You would be missed.

 

[mulester7]

.....a question to some of our more, ahem, "seasoned", riders....yeah, us old farts....did you notice a difference in your being seen by opposing traffic when the mandatory headlight laws came into effect?....I know I certainly did....this was sometime in the mid to late '70's, wasn't it?....

.....edit....you young guys....that's correct, the first click of the key didn't produce a headlight, nor tail-light, nor marker lights at one time, and only allowed the engine to start, which was usually a kick-start....when you grabbed either brake, you got a tail-light and that was it....when it began to get dark, you clicked the key one more click to get a headlight and full-tme tail-light.....