Denon New AV Receivers have 4 Features Nobody Else Has!

[Pogre]

The guys with 200w /ch amps never recommend buying amps. LOL

I think they did mention the Denon and Marantz run hot so if you add amps the AVR can run cooler in eco mode. That’s the benefit maybe.

I also saw a few people had regrets spending on 6000 or 8000 series as features change so they got to the point of just getting a 200w per channel amp and purchasing the 3000 or 4000 series every few years.

You bring up a good point! I'm gonna go with, since we do have the amps we have first hand experience and know it doesn't improve your sound.

I may be loosening up my stance on amps tho. I got into a conversation with Dave at Ascend yesterday and he thinks I could be pushing my monolith into clipping territory at my distance when I peg the volume, even with 90 dB sensitivity.

 

[snakeeyes]

You bring up a good point! I'm gonna go with, since we do have the amps we have first hand experience and know it doesn't improve your sound.

I may be loosening up my stance on amps tho. I got into a conversation with Dave at Ascend yesterday and he thinks I could be pushing my monolith into clipping territory at my distance when I peg the volume, even with 90 dB sensitivity.

Can you move your seating closer? You already have 200w /ch on your Monolith 7.

As far as a lot of posts where people need amps, some of the people need 11ch for 7.1.4 so they need to add an amp anyhow since a 3000 or 4000 only have 9ch internal amps but can process 11ch if an external amp is used. They can add a 2ch to mains or 3ch to include the center. Monolith 3/5/7 or Outlaw 2200 monoblocks always are popular recommendations.

 

[Pogre]

Can you move your seating closer? You already have 200w /ch on your Monolith 7.

As far as a lot of posts where people need amps, some of the people need 11ch for 7.1.4 so they need to add an amp anyhow since a 3000 or 4000 only have 9ch internal amps but can process 11ch if an external amp is used. They can add a 2ch to mains or 3ch to include the center. Monolith 3/5/7 or Outlaw 2200 monoblocks always are popular recommendations.

Sure, yes. There are good reasons to get an external amp, especially when you're planning to use that many speakers.

I'm probably gonna look at moving closer by this weekend. I'm also gonna check what spl I'm hitting at my seat compared to the number on the volume dial.

 

[snakeeyes]

Sure, yes. There are good reasons to get an external amp, especially when you're planning to use that many speakers.

I'm probably gonna look at moving closer by this weekend. I'm also gonna check what spl I'm hitting at my seat compared to the number on the volume dial.

Are ribbon tweeters not the best for high SPL? I just thought of that off the top of my head.

 

[PENG]

You bring up a good point! I'm gonna go with, since we do have the amps we have first hand experience and know it doesn't improve your sound.

I may be loosening up my stance on amps tho. I got into a conversation with Dave at Ascend yesterday and he thinks I could be pushing my monolith into clipping territory at my distance when I peg the volume, even with 90 dB sensitivity.

My calculator did show that too, but its a matter of how low a distortion you could hear, when it only happens momentarily, like for milli seconds.

 

[Pogre]

My calculator did show that too, but its a matter of how low a distortion you could hear, when it only happens momentarily, like for milli seconds.

Yes, I remember but that was for the 105 dB peaks for THX standard, right? I was assuming 85 dB-ish with much smaller peaks for music so maybe 90 - 91 dB at mlp, max.

I bumped my Sierra thread with some more info instead of hijacking this one.

Ascend Acoustic Ribbon Towers

So, to sum up the docks posted and this summary (ha) basically the -0 (reference) level applies LESS DEQ than the other levels that are lower values? Am I getting that right? You mean -0 (reference) level as in volume level, yes. The closer you get to reference the less DEQ is applied.

forums.audioholics.com

 

[PENG]

Yes, I remember but that was for the 105 dB peaks for THX standard, right? I was assuming 85 dB-ish with much smaller peaks for music so maybe 90 - 91 dB at mlp, max.

I bumped my Sierra thread with some more info instead of hijacking this one.

Ascend Acoustic Ribbon Towers

So, to sum up the docks posted and this summary (ha) basically the -0 (reference) level applies LESS DEQ than the other levels that are lower values? Am I getting that right? You mean -0 (reference) level as in volume level, yes. The closer you get to reference the less DEQ is applied.

forums.audioholics.com

If you listen at 90 dB peak maximum then no the calculator would show no clipping. In that case, I have no idea why the Ascend guy would tell you that it would, and if he did, he's wrong.

I will check the preamp side, he may be right for the wrong reason, that its not the power amp but the preamp that could be clipping at that level. Still don't think so but will check..

Actually if you are talking about 90-91 dB max peak then there is no need to be concerned because even your AVR on its own can do it with ease, with more than enough headroom on hand. As shown below you only need 21 W, or 42 W if you assume no room gain at all, there would be like using the Crown audio calculator.

I think you should talk to someone else at Ascend, or ask Ed SVS the same question.

Input data required:	Input data	Unit
1) Speaker nominal impedance (Ohms)	4.00	Ohm
2) Sensitivity in dB/W at 1 Meter		dB
3) Sensitivity in dB/2.83 V at 1 Meter	90.00	dB
4) Seating distance (1 foot = 0.3048 Meter, 1 Meter = 3.281 foot)	4.57	Meter
5) Room gain for speaker placement near walls/corners, enter 0 to 3 dB max., to err on the conservative side	3.00	dB
6) Desired additional amplifier headroom (dB) Recommended minimum is 3		dB
7) Target SPL - THX reference is 85 dB, with 20 dB of headroom	90.00	dB
Calculated values from the input data:	Calculated values
Sensitivity loss at seating distance (dB)	13.20	dB
SPL/W at seating distance calculated from the input data	79.80	dB
Amplifier power output based on 2.83 V and the assumed impedance at 1 Meter	2.00	Watt (W)
Power increase in multiples needed to achieve target SPL	10.48
Power increase in dB needed to achieve target SPL	10.20	dB
Calculated amplifier output power required:
For the target SPL at seating distance	20.99	Watt (W)
For the target SPL at seating distance, with the desired headroom included		Watt (W)

 

[ryanosaur]

The guys with 200w /ch amps never recommend buying amps. LOL

I think they did mention the Denon and Marantz run hot so if you add amps the AVR can run cooler in eco mode. That’s the benefit maybe.

I also saw a few people had regrets spending on 6000 or 8000 series as features change so they got to the point of just getting a 200w per channel amp and purchasing the 3000 or 4000 series every few years.

It's not that I don't recommend buying them, rather I disagree with the premise that they will sound "better." Therefore, the reason one chooses to buy am amp is that they require some headroom and are will to pay for the fact that said headroom is seldom used (my case), or because they have speakers presenting difficult loads to the amp stage of their AVR (consider Polk and B&W speakers, for example).
Regardless...

@juma , your question has only been partly answered, true. The Outlaw 5000 will not make the 3700 AVR sound batter than the 4700 in any measurable way. What gets to the crux of your confusion is whether or not the 3700 and 4700 AVRs will sound different on their own.
Since I have not heard these machines, I can't answer that, however, I bet @PENG would agree that the likelihood of you hearing a difference between those two machines is minimal; perhaps non existent. What say you, Peng?

 

[tparm]

Sooooo in reading the chatter about external amplifiers, in a 15.5x31x9 "sealed" room w/ MLP @ 14' from the front wall and little less than 12' from LCR, using Polk LSiM707s, 706c, and 703s (and 4 700-LS ceiling speakers) and 2 Monolith 15" ported subs, 65/35% music to movies listened at loud but below reference levels; I would likely benefit from using external amps?

The whole pre-amp mode is awesome but has made my purchasing decision more difficult. I am one whole believes sound is affected by the ability of an amplifier to have a good grip on the drivers (sat through of demo of this years ago using a receiver on its own and an older Adcom amp which I promptly purchased) of the speakers and also a low noise floor.

So does a 4700 with a Monolith 5X and two BasX A-150s provide a better opportunity for quality sound than a 6700 on its own? The 4700 has a couple of features I like that the 3700 doesn't so it has come down to those two. the 6700 scenario is of course less expensive, especially if I sell my one A-150 too. And for the same money I could add an external 2-channel amp to the 6700....... you see how this goes? Help me end the maddness.

 

[Pogre]

Sooooo in reading the chatter about external amplifiers, in a 15.5x31x9 "sealed" room w/ MLP @ 14' from the front wall and little less than 12' from LCR, using Polk LSiM707s, 706c, and 703s (and 4 700-LS ceiling speakers) and 2 Monolith 15" ported subs, 65/35% music to movies listened at loud but below reference levels; I would likely benefit from using external amps?

The whole pre-amp mode is awesome but has made my purchasing decision more difficult. I am one whole believes sound is affected by the ability of an amplifier to have a good grip on the drivers (sat through of demo of this years ago using a receiver on its own and an older Adcom amp which I promptly purchased) of the speakers and also a low noise floor.

So does a 4700 with a Monolith 5X and two BasX A-150s provide a better opportunity for quality sound than a 6700 on its own? The 4700 has a couple of features I like that the 3700 doesn't so it has come down to those two. the 6700 scenario is of course less expensive, especially if I sell my one A-150 too. And for the same money I could add an external 2-channel amp to the 6700....... you see how this goes? Help me end the maddness.

What are your listening habits, as in how loud? Clean watts are clean watts. If you're hitting the spl you want and everything is operating within spec (no clipping or distortion) you really likely aren't going to hear any difference between a 75 watt amp and a 200 watt amp, in a properly set up DBT. Not a sales demo. Sales demos are soooo easy to manipulate. The difference in power between the 4700 and the 6700 is so small it's really inconsequential. If you think you'll need an amp with the 4700 you're just about as equally justified getting one for the 6700.

With all that in mind, with all those speakers (and the LSiMs can present some wonky loads), room size and distance I could see an argument for an amp. Not for better sound mind you, but for cooler and more comfortable operating temps and longevity. Especially if you like to crank it up sometimes.

 

[ryanosaur]

In terms of heat issues stemming from an AVR, these are well worth the investment: just match venting to the situation that best fits your rig (top, rear, front).

https://www.amazon.com/AC-Infinity-Rear-Exhaust-Receivers-Components/dp/B01LW1Q429

This pretty well eliminates heat as an issue.

 

[tparm]

What are your listening habits, as in how loud? Clean watts are clean watts. If you're hitting the spl you want and everything is operating within spec (no clipping or distortion) you really likely aren't going to hear any difference between a 75 watt amp and a 200 watt amp, in a properly set up DBT. Not a sales demo. Sales demos are soooo easy to manipulate. The difference in power between the 4700 and the 6700 is so small it's really inconsequential. If you think you'll need an amp with the 4700 you're just about as equally justified getting one for the 6700.

With all that in mind, with all those speakers (and the LSiMs can present some wonky loads), room size and distance I could see an argument for an amp. Not for better sound mind you, but for cooler and more comfortable operating temps and longevity. Especially if you like to crank it up sometimes.

As things go, I start off at reasonable listening levels but then the bourbon kicks in and the volume creep starts.... I listen to lots of vocal stuff (MacY Gray Stripped, Rebecca Pigeon Spanish Harlem), instrumental (Gogo Penguin), and more mainstream stuff like DMB, Mark Knopfler, Tool (an outlier I know), Leon Bridges, etc. At this point nearly all of this is in 2CH (some with subs, some without) but I am beginning to listen to some music upmixed too.

I tend to watch movies pretty loud but way below reference (2049 with guys over - loud, with girlfriend - not loud).

I love the idea of running this thing as a pre-amp but I am not sure its justified for me. I think the 4700 with a 3 channel Monolith would provide great sound and hit all the dynamic peaks in my room. I can use the 11CH hack and get a solid clean 2V to the RL pre-outs and I am not sure the center would exceed 1.4V (esp with LFE going to subs) with my listening habits meaning it could produce clean power to the Monolith if I go 3 channel. I am not sure 200w/channel to the surround channels would ever be needed and it seems silly to use external amps for the Atmos channels just as a way to use pre-amp mode. Maybe be slowly answering my questions and appreciate your perspectives @Pogre and @PENG

 

[Pogre]

Tool (an outlier I know),

An outlier?! Not if you know me!

I'm gonna just leave this here for anyone who may not have seen it yet.

That is one of the best drum cam videos I've seen and one of the most talented drummers to ever live. I love TOOL. I'm familiar with the others you mentioned too, up to and including the Rebecca Pigeon recording! I know exactly which one you're talking about.

 

[tparm]

An outlier?! Not if you know me!

I'm gonna just leave this here for anyone who may not have seen it yet.

That is one of the best drum cam videos I've seen and one of the most talented drummers to ever live. I love TOOL. I'm familiar with the others you mentioned too, up to and including the Rebecca Pigeon recording! I know exactly which one you're talking about.

Nice clip! I do love that guy.
My last thought on the amps, only $200 more for 5-channel, so why not....

 

[ryanosaur]

Passing by and thought I'd hit back on this...
Considering your speakers, I would look for the Amp most capable down to the lower impedance. Frankly, I would look at something like the QSC Cinema Amp for your mains, or DIY Hypex N-Core NC400 Modules. That's just me, though.

Again, its not about better sound, it's about delivering clean power to your speakers, and ample clean power in the sense that dipping below 4 ohms requires current.

 

[Pogre]

Nice clip! I do love that guy.
My last thought on the amps, only $200 more for 5-channel, so why not....

Sure. You'll have some room to grow with that too. Just know that the overall consensus is that it's really pretty overkill and a little more for thermal performance, prestige and the feel goods than any big gains in sound quality. I think you would get pretty equal performance at very loud levels with the 4500 by itself with a fan to help keep it cool. Especially if the bulk of your listening is 2 channel.

That said, I bought a Monolith 7. I'm not the best guy to be telling folks to save their money, lol.

 

[tparm]

An outlier?! Not if you know me!

I'm gonna just leave this here for anyone who may not have seen it yet.

That is one of the best drum cam videos I've seen and one of the most talented drummers to ever live. I love TOOL. I'm familiar with the others you mentioned too, up to and including the Rebecca Pigeon recording! I know exactly which one you're talking about.

Me with another of my heroes. Carter Beauford lives about 45 minutes form me, not that I see him often or anything.... But this is a pretty special piece I have hanging in my house.

 

[Pogre]

Me with another of my heroes. Carter Beauford lives about 45 minutes form me, not that I see him often or anything.... But this is a pretty special piece I have hanging in my house.

Are you kidding me?! I love watching and listening to Carter play! He is very, very good! The fact that he's left handed is what makes him fun to watch for me. I play right handed, like 99% of the drummers I know, lol.

 

[tparm]

Are you kidding me?! I love watching and listening to Carter play! He is very, very good! The fact that he's left handed is what makes him fun to watch for me. I play right handed, like 99% of the drummers I know, lol.

Amazing drummer and equally amazing human, always super gracious and chill dude. His two kids play in a band and he was at a brewery watching them. Afterwards people left and I was with a guy that knows him well so we hung out for about 20 minutes and shot the breeze about music, drums, kids, golf and Porsches. Haha.

Ok back on topic, sorry......

 

[tparm]

Passing by and thought I'd hit back on this...
Considering your speakers, I would look for the Amp most capable down to the lower impedance. Frankly, I would look at something like the QSC Cinema Amp for your mains, or DIY Hypex N-Core NC400 Modules. That's just me, though.

Again, its not about better sound, it's about delivering clean power to your speakers, and ample clean power in the sense that dipping below 4 ohms requires current.

I am super intrigued by Class D (Purifi, Hypex, etc) but I have no idea if I'd like the sound. Specs are insane.... Would you worry about powering just the LR channel with Class D and not the other channels? Looks like there are several options out there what can reach peak power cleanly with 2V.