Denon New AV Receivers have 4 Features Nobody Else Has!

[snakeeyes]

Amazing drummer and equally amazing human, always super gracious and chill dude. His two kids play in a band and he was at a brewery watching them. Afterwards people left and I was with a guy that knows him well so we hung out for about 20 minutes and shot the breeze about music, drums, kids, golf and Porsches. Haha.

Ok back on topic, sorry......

I already derailed it talking about ribbon tweeters. LOL

I have two different SACDs with Rebecca Pigeon.

 

[PENG]

I love the idea of running this thing as a pre-amp but I am not sure its justified for me. I think the 4700 with a 3 channel Monolith would provide great sound and hit all the dynamic peaks in my room. I can use the 11CH hack and get a solid clean 2V to the RL pre-outs and I am not sure the center would exceed 1.4V (esp with LFE going to subs) with my listening habits meaning it could produce clean power to the Monolith if I go 3 channel. I am not sure 200w/channel to the surround channels would ever be needed and it seems silly to use external amps for the Atmos channels just as a way to use pre-amp mode. Maybe be slowly answering my questions and appreciate your perspectives @Pogre and @PENG

In terms of power needed to "control the cone movement.....", It is true that you need to have enough current output from the driving amplifier for the particular speakers it is driving, but if you listen to well below reference level and the amp is only outputting a few watts with peaks to may be 30-50 W, then most 4 ohm nominal well designed speakers such as KEF, Revel, Focal, SVS, Elac's etc., will have all the currents they need for them to behave well.

Let's see a numerical example in the comparison of amp A and amp B below (all values are in RMS)

Amp A is rated 300 W into 4 ohms, so rated current is 8.66 A (formula not show, so trust me..)

Amp B is an AVR, rated 100 W into 8 ohms, 50 W into 4 ohms, so rated current is 3.54 A

Obviously Amp A can deliver more than double the current that Amp B can, but it should be obvious to anyone that if the speaker in use only needs say 1.5 A to produce the maximum peak SPL the user needs at his mlp, then it would make no difference to the speakers which am is in use. Simple and logical right? If not, please tell me why.., if yes, then stopped listening to hearsay created by professional reviewers who have little technical knowledge. Again the principle is correct but if stated as a general blanket statement then it can be misleading to a lot of people

Now back to your question about the 4700 vs 6700, assuming you are referring to the 2020 Denon AVR-X4700H and X6700H. If you are going to use external amp and you don't mind not having the DTS:X Pro, then in my opinion the X4700H is the better deal.

It is just too bad you have to use the amp assign trick because the new preamp mode is all or none. I hope you voted yes in my thread on a FW upgrade to make the preamp mode flexible.

For movies, the center channel is typically more demanding than the left and right, but the Denon can output much higher than 2 V, just that distortion pass at higher than about 1.5 V will increase, by the time it reaches 2 V, when the Monolith will be at its rated output, THD+N from the center channel pre out will at about 0.0187%, but that is just about the same as the Marantz AV7705. That's pretty amazing isn't it. And I highly doubt you have to worry about the AV7705's distortions for movies.

Below is the comparison between the AV7705 (a prepro) and the AVR-X3600H's (an AVR) center channel that cannot be disconnected so there affected by the power amp at the 2 V output level.

For an apple to apple comparison, the Marantz AV7705's 3.955 V is actually 1.9775 V if unbalance RCAs were used, so the comparisons below are fair, i.e. truly apple to apple.

 

[Pogre]

Amazing drummer and equally amazing human, always super gracious and chill dude. His two kids play in a band and he was at a brewery watching them. Afterwards people left and I was with a guy that knows him well so we hung out for about 20 minutes and shot the breeze about music, drums, kids, golf and Porsches. Haha.

Ok back on topic, sorry......

Oh it's all good. I think it's natural for a thread to drift here and there and the mods here aren't as strict as some other places. I derail almost all of my own threads, lol.

Super cool you got to meet Carter! Jealous. He's one of my drum heroes for sure. I discovered how good he was with Dave Matthews back in the 90s and started buying their cds just for him. With a few exceptions I'm not a big fan of DMB music, but I can listen to Carter play all day. He has excellent chops and I wouldn't be surprised if he has some schooling behind that playing. He does seem like a genuinely nice and kind human being.

Tell him Pogre says "hi!".

In the spirit of topic, the QSC amps Ryan suggested are quite powerful little amps with good specs and don't mind hard to drive speakers. They're worth a look.

 

[juma]

Thanks to all of you, you really answered my concern about the need of an external amp for soud quality #notifyoudontuseallthewattbro , still Ill have to wait to find out if the IDDSC HD (dynamic discrete circuits) and AL32 (32-bit upsampling) processing of the AVR-X4700H justify the 500$ premium vs the AVR-X3700H, some of you said no but, I really want to be sure and need to find more info about this before buying one.

 

[tparm]

In terms of power needed to "control the cone movement.....", It is true that you need to have enough current output from the driving amplifier for the particular speakers it is driving, but if you listen to well below reference level and the amp is only outputting a few watts with peaks to may be 30-50 W, then most 4 ohm nominal well designed speakers such as KEF, Revel, Focal, SVS, Elac's etc., will have all the currents they need for them to behave well.

Let's see a numerical example in the comparison of amp A and amp B below (all values are in RMS)

Amp A is rated 300 W into 4 ohms, so rated current is 8.66 A (formula not show, so trust me..)

Amp B is an AVR, rated 100 W into 8 ohms, 50 W into 4 ohms, so rated current is 3.54 A

Obviously Amp A can deliver more than double the current that Amp B can, but it should be obvious to anyone that if the speaker in use only needs say 1.5 A to produce the maximum peak SPL the user needs at his mlp, then it would make no difference to the speakers which am is in use. Simple and logical right? If not, please tell me why.., if yes, then stopped listening to hearsay created by professional reviewers who have little technical knowledge. Again the principle is correct but if stated as a general blanket statement then it can be misleading to a lot of people

Now back to your question about the 4700 vs 6700, assuming you are referring to the 2020 Denon AVR-X4700H and X6700H. If you are going to use external amp and you don't mind not having the DTS:X Pro, then in my opinion the X4700H is the better deal.

It is just too bad you have to use the amp assign trick because the new preamp mode is all or none. I hope you voted yes in my thread on a FW upgrade to make the preamp mode flexible.

For movies, the center channel is typically more demanding than the left and right, but the Denon can output much higher than 2 V, just that distortion pass at higher than about 1.5 V will increase, by the time it reaches 2 V, when the Monolith will be at its rated output, THD+N from the center channel pre out will at about 0.0187%, but that is just about the same as the Marantz AV7705. That's pretty amazing isn't it. And I highly doubt you have to worry about the AV7705's distortions for movies.

Below is the comparison between the AV7705 (a prepro) and the AVR-X3600H's (an AVR) center channel that cannot be disconnected so there affected by the power amp at the 2 V output level.

For an apple to apple comparison, the Marantz AV7705's 3.955 V is actually 1.9775 V if unbalance RCAs were used, so the comparisons below are fair, i.e. truly apple to apple.

View attachment 37153

View attachment 37154

Very insightful, but it almost makes an argument for the 2020 Denons run in pre-amp mode doesn't it? I mean, if you could get 3 or 5 or 9 channels measuring at Ch2 example above, that would be a better result than either option illustrated here, right? Please know my intent is to learn, not to be argumentative! I don't really know what is audible and what isn't. Look at ASR results of (my) AVR850. I mean should I bin the thing and go this route? I plan to for 2CH changes on the fly, onboard streaming, discrete sub outputs, Auro 3D..... but ultimately it's about achieving the best sound possible within my budget. And no I didn't pay $6,000, or even $5,000 for the 850. I have some money to spend, I just want to spend it wisely. From previous experience the Denon stuff almost always just works, is somewhat straightforward to set you and sounds good. I looked at the T778 too but it appears as quirky as the 758 V3 was and while I can figure stuff out, I'm getting old enough I want to listen and enjoy instead of power cycling my equipment to get it to work or having to read forums for two hours to set up my inputs......

 

[Verdinut]

In the spirit of topic, the QSC amps Ryan suggested are quite powerful little amps with good specs and don't mind hard to drive speakers. They're worth a look.

Here is info on the QSC DCA 1222, a 2 channel power amp. I'm using three of those in my HT system:

DCA 1222

Crystal-clear, breathtaking, seat-shaking cinema sound is here with the DCA 1222 Digital Cinema Amplifier by QSC

www.qsc.com

My 7 Channel System

SYSTEM: MARANTZ SR5010, 3 QSC DCA 1222 AMPS. DRIVING THE FRONT CHANNELS IN ACTIVE BI-AMP CONFIG. QSC DCA 1824 (4 CH. AMP.) FOR SURROUND CHANNELS OPPO BDP-95, REVOX B77, TEAC AN-80 (NR), AUDIO-TECHNICA AT-LP1240, SHURE M97XE, HITACHI HCA-8300, PANASONIC TH-50PZ80U, FURMAN PS-8R, APC H15 FRONT...

forums.audioholics.com

 

[snakeeyes]

Thanks to all of you, you really answered my concern about the need of an external amp for soud quality #notifyoudontuseallthewattbro , still Ill have to wait to find out if the IDDSC HD (dynamic discrete circuits) and AL32 (32-bit upsampling) processing of the AVR-X4700H justify the 500$ premium vs the AVR-X3700H, some of you said no but, I really want to be sure and need to find more info about this before buying one.

Since they aren’t out yet hard to say which has the best bang for buck. The 3000 series tends to have most of what the 4000 series offers though. If you buy the previous model 3000 series you can often find it for an amazing price around $600, and that is why many here get so excited about features making it to the 3000 series. I mean Denon likely loses money at that price! LOL

 

[tparm]

Here is info on the QSC DCA 1222, a 2 channel power amp. I'm using three of those in my HT system:

DCA 1222

Crystal-clear, breathtaking, seat-shaking cinema sound is here with the DCA 1222 Digital Cinema Amplifier by QSC

www.qsc.com

My 7 Channel System

SYSTEM: MARANTZ SR5010, 3 QSC DCA 1222 AMPS. DRIVING THE FRONT CHANNELS IN ACTIVE BI-AMP CONFIG. QSC DCA 1824 (4 CH. AMP.) FOR SURROUND CHANNELS OPPO BDP-95, REVOX B77, TEAC AN-80 (NR), AUDIO-TECHNICA AT-LP1240, SHURE M97XE, HITACHI HCA-8300, PANASONIC TH-50PZ80U, FURMAN PS-8R, APC H15 FRONT...

forums.audioholics.com

Wow.... they look like beasts! Nice system.

 

[PENG]

Very insightful, but it almost makes an argument for the 2020 Denons run in pre-amp mode doesn't it? I mean, if you could get 3 or 5 or 9 channels measuring at Ch2 example above, that would be a better result than either option illustrated here, right? Please know my intent is to learn, not to be argumentative! I don't really know what is audible and what isn't. Look at ASR results of (my) AVR850. I mean should I bin the thing and go this route? I plan to for 2CH changes on the fly, onboard streaming, discrete sub outputs, Auro 3D..... but ultimately it's about achieving the best sound possible within my budget. And no I didn't pay $6,000, or even $5,000 for the 850. I have some money to spend, I just want to spend it wisely. From previous experience the Denon stuff almost always just works, is somewhat straightforward to set you and sounds good. I looked at the T778 too but it appears as quirky as the 758 V3 was and while I can figure stuff out, I'm getting old enough I want to listen and enjoy instead of power cycling my equipment to get it to work or having to read forums for two hours to set up my inputs......

The AVR-860 actually measured quite well. It is just weird that for it to measure reasonably well you have to set it to a certain speaker configuration. If they see the measurements at ASR, they should tell us what's causing such weird phenomenon, or if they realize something isn't right, they should fix it in their next FW update.

 

[tparm]

The AVR-860 actually measured quite well. It is just weird that for it to measure reasonably well you have to set it to a certain speaker configuration. If they see the measurements at ASR, they should tell us what's causing such weird phenomenon, or if they realize something isn't right, they should fix it in their next FW update.

Back to this Hypex stuff.... March Audio and Nord look like good options. Purifi is a little out of my price range I think. Has anyone heard the XTZ Edge piece? I know ICE modules got a bad rap but these are new gen so I'm curious. Good price point and plug and play.

 

[juma]

Since they aren’t out yet hard to say which has the best bang for buck. The 3000 series tends to have most of what the 4000 series offers though. If you buy the previous model 3000 series you can often find it for an amazing price around $600, and that is why many here get so excited about features making it to the 3000 series. I mean Denon likely loses money at that price! LOL

Yes, exept this year its HDMI 2.1 8K and VRR support ... so hard to pass since I plan to keep this thing for around 10 years plus like my denon 1912, with EARC the 2020 will follow me for a really long time !

 

[PENG]

I don't think one can hear the difference between 0.1% and 0.02% pre amp output. Human ears/brains and most speakers in room with noise floor at 20 dB or higher will not allow discernment to be that good, especially when watching movies. We all want great measurements for other reasons. Lots of people own 200, 400, 1 kW amps when they only need 50 w, almost the same idea.

 

[Pogre]

I take a lot of Amirm's subjective critiques with a block of salt. Not saying he's "wrong". Just hyper critical of anything less than stellar. At the prices you pay for some of the stuff he's measured I think some of that harshness is valid, but a lot of those differences in specs would be largely inaudible to just about everyone.

 

[PENG]

I take a lot of Amirm's subjective critiques with a block of salt. Not saying he's "wrong". Just hyper critical of anything less than stellar. At the prices you pay for some of the stuff he's measured I think some of that harshness is valid, but a lot of those differences in specs would be largely inaudible to just about everyone.

Yep, he would complain about the numbers as though they were disasters, but then in his commentary he would say: FNTA, FNA, FNVA, go figure. But I get it, he wants to see great numbers, to him bad numbers indicate poor engineering put into the product, regardless of audibility. That, I would agree, but that could be because of the way I was trained, sort of a learnt behavior.

 

[ryanosaur]

Yes, exept this year its HDMI 2.1 8K and VRR support ... so hard to pass since I plan to keep this thing for around 10 years plus like my denon 1912, with EARC the 2020 will follow me for a really long time !

Agree, this is the first major upgrade in AV tech to come along in several years. Who really needs IMAX? But these upgrades are even making me consider switching from my 2yr old Marantz.

 

[juma]

Agree, this is the first major upgrade in AV tech to come along in several years. Who really needs IMAX? But these upgrades are even making me consider switching from my 2yr old Marantz.

I skipped 4K AVR, I bought into HD .... used ARC to HD AVR all along the 4K wave by plugging stuff directly in the TV and streaming 4K content from it ... But now im ready for next gen console, its HDMI 2.1 and 8K support with EARC ... it will last a while, thats why im picking on these AVR details, we are friends for a long run untill 8K will be obsolete .... I would wait an other year if I didnt upgraded my speaker ...

 

[ryanosaur]

untill 8K will be obsolete

In 3 months?

 

[juma]

In 3 months?

Im actually working in video production ... We reach a point where nobody wants to work with that much data, 8K or more RAW ... capturing, storing , backup and working with that its just too much money and time consuming. I hope the HDR tech with better codec will be the next race over more and more K ...

 

[alkemomo]

Yeah i might just see what marantz have to offer (most likely the same features) but I'll benefit from marantz on the music end because buyers swear marantz is perfect for music.

 

[Verdinut]

Dont believe hearsay from everyone. Not only Marantz, but all AVRs are good for music provided that they are operated within their designed limits.