Denon New AV Receivers have 4 Features Nobody Else Has!

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I've read this post a few times as I appreciate the data provided. One question and one thought;

I can't tell if Amir says ECO mode degrades DAC performance only in the channels using onboard amps or also those of LR in pre-amp mode? It appears using an X3700 in pre-amp mode with a Monolith 5X (even though not tested on ASR, bench results on here were very good) and two Emotiva A-150s (I already own one) for the Atmos channels would be an excellent and relatively cost-effective solution.

This would save speculation on if the extra processing in the X4700 & X6700 would actually cause higher levels of noise and therefore not test as well.
I don't remember ASR measured the DAC performance with ECO on. From what I gather, it would degrade in the sense that ECO reduces the rail voltage so the onboard amps will reach their clipping point sooner, resulting in the pre-out (I don't prefer the DAC term that Amir used all the time) distortions to increase sooner, that is, at a lower output voltage.

I don't prefer the term "DAC" but it is probably just me, because very few people actually use the direct/pure direct modes using analog inputs, when the ADC/DAC path is not used.

The X4700/6700H should measure better because their rail voltages are a little higher and the power supply a little larger, so even if the THD+N is the same as the X3700H, it will at least be maintained up to a higher voltage.

I suspect the X4700 and X6700H can maintain the same SINAD of about 100 up to 1.5 V, but that's just my educated guess. There should not be extra processing in those units but even if there is, it wouldn't result in more noise in those kind of measurements.

Edit: "not" was missing for some reason.
 
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D

DJ7675

Audioholic
Denon is really doing great work on providing great performance and features. The one thing they need to turn their attention to is continuing to develop Audyssey. They really need just a couple changes/additions in my opinion:
1-A PC app. Iphone/Ipad apps are ok but difficult to be precise with
2-More default target curve options. Both flat and reference are really poor as they are primarily flat across the spectrum. Flat in room at the listening position is not what research supports as preferred. Having 2-3 more curves to choose from would be such a huge benefit to Audyssey users.
3-Ability to use your own calibrated mic. The included Ausyssey mic is fine for lower frequencies, but if you want to work with higher frequencies it doesn't seem to be very accurate
4-Ability to save your own target curve and apply it to all speakers. Having to redraw your target curve every time seems so unnecessary.
Hopefully they will continue to listen...
 
T

tparm

Audioholic
I don't remember ASR measured the DAC performance with ECO on. From what I gather, it would degrade in the sense that ECO reduces the rail voltage so the onboard amps will reach their clipping point sooner, resulting in the pre-out (I don't prefer the DAC term that Amir used all the time) distortions to increase sooner, that is, at a lower output voltage.

I don't prefer the term "DAC" but it is probably just me, because very few people actually use the direct/pure direct modes using analog inputs, when the ADC/DAC path is not used.

The X4700/6700H should measure better because their rail voltages are a little higher and the power supply a little larger, so even if the THD+N is the same as the X3700H, it will at least be maintained up to a higher voltage.

I suspect the X4700 and X6700H can maintain the same SINAD of about 100 up to 1.5 V, but that's just my educated guess. There should be extra processing in those units but even if there is, it wouldn't result in more noise in those kind of measurements.
Thanks @PENG. I wish there was some standard that could be used for limiting volume to "1.6V" "79.5" "-0.5".... but at the same time, if you are listening to it and don't hear distortion I suppose it doesn't really matter. :)
 
D

DJ7675

Audioholic
Thanks @PENG. I wish there was some standard that could be used for limiting volume to "1.6V" "79.5" "-0.5".... but at the same time, if you are listening to it and don't hear distortion I suppose it doesn't really matter. :)
Basically it comes down to... if you are using internal amps only you get very good performance as long as you don't listen above reference level. This is only an issue if using external amps that require more voltage. This becomes a non-issue in my opinion if you get an amp that are the most common ones recommended... outlaw 5000, Monoprice Monolith, Emotiva. I believe all 3 of these are under these amounts.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks @PENG. I wish there was some standard that could be used for limiting volume to "1.6V" "79.5" "-0.5".... but at the same time, if you are listening to it and don't hear distortion I suppose it doesn't really matter. :)
There is already, the real issue is that there don't seem to be a standard for the recording industry let alone media such as Youtube where just about any one can upload something that could destroy your speakers and/or ears if you are not careful.
 
W

WookieGR

Junior Audioholic
Did anyone at Sound United take into consideration the fact that most TV manufacturers are dropping DTS support? How would one even possibly utilize their entertainment system with a TV that has a single HDMI 2.1 with earc and no DTS pass-through, a PS5, X-Series and a Home Theater PC. You will have to sacrifice one of them if you are a gamer. Non gamers will never even know the blight we must endure.
 
A_Shah

A_Shah

Enthusiast
Two days before the release announcement of the new models I ordered 3600H Via Amazon Seller. Guess what ! overnight shipment ! I get a new Denon AVR-X4500H + plus a Heos 3 for the price of a 3600H . I have 60 days either to swap this unit or send it back debating what to do?. For my two channel listening I have totally separate High end system in the same room the only thing they share are the OPPO 205 UHD & a pair of REL S/812 is it worth it to swap for a 3700 H ? . For an external amp I am using a Class D, 7 channel 150 true wattage Wyred4Sound MC7150 amplifier for the F C R the 4500H is just being used for Atmos and back Surround channels in a 5.1.2 setup Looking at the specs. it seems most of the hardware components are the same so I am asuming the firmware is software up gradable to current status
 
K

krs_kusen

Audiophyte
They are missing one product in the line. They should provide a AVR without internal amplification only with pre-outs. And make it the cheapest one.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
They are missing one product in the line. They should provide a AVR without internal amplification only with pre-outs. And make it the cheapest one.
Economy of scale works against us in this case, as has been pointed out in many other conversations on this topic. Processor/Controllers end up costing more because there is not enough demand to justify larger production runs which help bring the cost per unit down. That it is less expensive to include the amplification in the same chassis would seem counterintuitive, yet for many... that is where the demand lies and why separates are more expensive.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
They are missing one product in the line. They should provide a AVR without internal amplification only with pre-outs. And make it the cheapest one.
If they did, they would have called them AVP, not AVR. Denon stopped making AVP (except may be one in the "pro" series) since Sound United owned both Denon and Marantz. That's probably because Marantz AVPs were selling more prior, likely due to their much lower price points.
 
juma

juma

Audiophyte
Im wondering if can you ear or feel the DDSC HD (dynamic discrete circuits) and AL32 (32-bit upsampling) of the AVR-X4700H to justify the premium vs the AVR-X3700H, because for me its the only difference between those two.

I planned on buying the cheapest denon 2020 with pre amp out (AVR-X3700H) at 1200$ to pair it with an external amp like an outlaw 5000 at 600$ that can drive 5 channel at 120 watt/each for a total of 1800$ ... So it would maybe outperform the 1700$ AVR-X4700H in sound quality ? Or the X4700H internal amp are better than the outlaw ?

With 1700-1800$ I really wonder witch combo would sound better, 50% music 50% HT. I only have a 5.1 and dont plan to fill up the living room with more speaker so ...
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
Im wondering if can you ear or feel the DDSC HD (dynamic discrete circuits) and AL32 (32-bit upsampling) of the AVR-X4700H to justify the premium vs the AVR-X3700H, because for me its the only difference between those two.

I planned on buying the cheapest denon 2020 with pre amp out (AVR-X3700H) at 1200$ to pair it with an external amp like an outlaw 5000 at 600$ that can drive 5 channel at 120 watt/each for a total of 1800$ ... So it would maybe outperform the 1700$ AVR-X4700H in sound quality ? Or the X4700H internal amp are better than the outlaw ?

With 1700-1800$ I really wonder witch combo would sound better, 50% music 50% HT. I only have a 5.1 and dont plan to fill up the living room with more speaker so ...
If driven within parameters, most here will contend that you should not hear a difference in Amps. The only real reason to get a more powerful amp would be for stability at lower impedance/handling hard-to-drive loads, or for headroom (assuming the speakers in question can handle the power).
The Outlaw 5000 is 120W/ch into 8 Ohms (180w into 4Ohms). The Denon 3700 is 105w for 2 ch at 8 Ohms. The 4700 is 125w, 2ch, 8 Ohms. The difference in these specs is negligible.

More appropriate:
What are your Speakers?
What are your listening habits, ie How loud do you listen?
how far do you sit from the speakers?
 
juma

juma

Audiophyte
If driven within parameters, most here will contend that you should not hear a difference in Amps. The only real reason to get a more powerful amp would be for stability at lower impedance/handling hard-to-drive loads, or for headroom (assuming the speakers in question can handle the power).
The Outlaw 5000 is 120W/ch into 8 Ohms (180w into 4Ohms). The Denon 3700 is 105w for 2 ch at 8 Ohms. The 4700 is 125w, 2ch, 8 Ohms. The difference in these specs is negligible.

More appropriate:
What are your Speakers?
What are your listening habits, ie How loud do you listen?
how far do you sit from the speakers?
Paradigm 800F left and right, Paradigm SE 2000 C center and paradigm monitor surround, paired with a defiance 12 sub. I listen 50% music & 50% HT in a 20x20 living room, sit at 12 feet from the speaker. I listen a bit louder than natural dialog level for series and everyday use ... loud but not cinema loud for movie and like to be able to crank it up quite loud for music.

But im still looking for a respose to << Im wondering if can you ear or feel the DDSC HD (dynamic discrete circuits) and AL32 (32-bit upsampling) of the AVR-X4700H to justify the premium vs the AVR-X3700H, because for me its the only difference between those two.>> Its 500$ for these features and 20w more power ...
 
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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
But im still looking for a respose to << Im wondering if can you ear or feel the DDSC HD (dynamic discrete circuits) and AL32 (32-bit upsampling) of the AVR-X4700H to justify the premium vs the AVR-X3700H, because for me its the only difference between those two.>> Its 500$ for these features and 20w more power ...
He answered you. Operated within limits you likely won't hear any difference unless you have difficult speakers or sit real far from your front stage. This is why he asked your speakers and listening habits.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
He answered you. Operated within limits you likely won't hear any difference unless you have difficult speakers or sit real far from your front stage. This is why he asked your speakers and listening habits.
1592190543472.png
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
Shady reviewed those at about 88dB sensitvity.
If you have some boundary support and perhaps only lose 3dB per doubling of distance, at 12' you might be down ~6dB. 128w should be hitting dynamic peaks of around 103dB at your LP, just a hair below Reference Level Spec.

Do you need an Amp? My estimation is no as I stated before: it will not change your Sound Quality. If you want some headroom for Dynamic peaks while listening to Multi-Channel Programs, then sure...
...You may benefit from an Amp capable of delivering 200w pr Ch to your mains. Make it a 3-channel and cover your Center, too. That leaves your Surrounds to draw the main Amplification power from the Amp Stage of the AVR.

That's how I approached my needs. In reality, I probably barely use my Amps at all when listening to music. Even for HT, I probably only come close to tapping their potential on very rare occasions.

Did I expect my Outlaw Monoblocks to change the SQ of my Speakers? NO! ;)
 
juma

juma

Audiophyte
Shady reviewed those at about 88dB sensitvity.
If you have some boundary support and perhaps only lose 3dB per doubling of distance, at 12' you might be down ~6dB. 128w should be hitting dynamic peaks of around 103dB at your LP, just a hair below Reference Level Spec.

Do you need an Amp? My estimation is no as I stated before: it will not change your Sound Quality. If you want some headroom for Dynamic peaks while listening to Multi-Channel Programs, then sure...
...You may benefit from an Amp capable of delivering 200w pr Ch to your mains. Make it a 3-channel and cover your Center, too. That leaves your Surrounds to draw the main Amplification power from the Amp Stage of the AVR.

That's how I approached my needs. In reality, I probably barely use my Amps at all when listening to music. Even for HT, I probably only come close to tapping their potential on very rare occasions.

Did I expect my Outlaw Monoblocks to change the SQ of my Speakers? NO! ;)
Thanks, I understand that with the AVR-X4700H I would not benefits from an external amp ... Still for 1800$ I cant decide what would sound better ... AVR-X3700H + outlaw 5000 ( more power no DDSC HD and AL32 ) or a AVR-X4700H ( less power overall but DDSC HD and AL32 precessing ) ... both set up would cost the same ...
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
Thanks, I understand that with the AVR-X4700H I would not benefits from an external amp ... Still for 1800$ I cant decide what would sound better ... AVR-X3700H + outlaw 5000 ( more power no DDSC HD and AL32 ) or a AVR-X4700H ( less power overall but DDSC HD and AL32 precessing ) ... both set up would cost the same ...
No, you should not notice a difference in sound quality as long as you're operating within limits. That's why volume levels, distance and speakers are relevant. Enough power is enough power. More won't "sound better", but you'll be able to play louder.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
The guys with 200w /ch amps never recommend buying amps. LOL :)

I think they did mention the Denon and Marantz run hot so if you add amps the AVR can run cooler in eco mode. That’s the benefit maybe.

I also saw a few people had regrets spending on 6000 or 8000 series as features change so they got to the point of just getting a 200w per channel amp and purchasing the 3000 or 4000 series every few years.
 

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