Denon New AV Receivers have 4 Features Nobody Else Has!

[alkemomo]

Recent research reveals that the lower priced models reveal that the Marantz models are warmer. But the flagship models sound very similar as many of the inner parts are identical.

 

[Gmoney]

View attachment 36949
I own a Marantz in a Music First system and am considering switching to Denon. Or the HTP-1 from Mono-Mono. Time will tell. But I'm going to wait until the stars align if needs be!
2.1 HDMI
.6 Atmos with flexibility of speaker placement
eARC
Customizable Amp Assign per channel (If an AVR).

lmao!! We gotta get a few of us members walk into say umm BestBuy with each a hand full of those Kool/aid Stickers placing them on their over priced gear, than video all of the associates running around removing them Kool-Aid stickers be like a K-Mart special blue light, but a red light going off in the store.dude over the COM system Sticker Kool-Aid alert!! Kool-Aid alert to all associates come to the back of the store. lolo

 

[PENG]

@juma , your question has only been partly answered, true. The Outlaw 5000 will not make the 3700 AVR sound batter than the 4700 in any measurable way. What gets to the crux of your confusion is whether or not the 3700 and 4700 AVRs will sound different on their own.
Since I have not heard these machines, I can't answer that, however, I bet @PENG would agree that the likelihood of you hearing a difference between those two machines is minimal; perhaps non existent. What say you, Peng?

Let's review something Gene alluded to in the past, such something he mentioned in the CX-A5200 review:

Yamaha AVENTAGE 5200 Series 11CH Processor/Amplifier Review

Yamaha is on their 3rd generation of separates in the Aventage line with their new 11-channel CX-A5200 AV Processor and MX-A5200 amplifier. Read our review to find out if they are a worthy successor.

www.audioholics.com

"CX-A5100:
Brown: Unbal - 90dB @ 1kHz
Red: Bal -95dB @ 1kHz

CX-A5200:
Purple: Unbal -88dB @ 1kHz
Blue: Bal -72dB @ 1kHz

As you can see there's actually about a 23dB difference in distortion between the CX-A5100 and CX-A5200 at the same drive level and test conditions via the XLR outputs. The difference in distortion between the CX-A5100 and CX-A5200 unbalanced outputs was only 2dB in this comparison.......................

While 23dB sounds like a really big number, it's important to note that the overall distortion level is still quite low for the CX-A5200 model and below the threshold of audibility in my testing."

So he's effectively saying -72 dB of THD+N was below the threshold of audibility.

Gene reviewed the Outlaw 5000 but not the recent Denon AVRs, but we can compare the 5000 with the X3600H using ASR's reviews:

To see the details please go to audiosciencereview.com

You can see that in terms of THD+N, the X3600H (expect the X3700H to be about the same), the Denon actually did better in the 5 W test:

AVR-X3600H........................-88 dB
Outlaw 5000........................-79 dB

In the "max", 2 Ch into 4 ohms measurements:

AVR-X3600H........................-86 dB at 167 W
Outlaw 5000........................-82 dB at 247 W

So yes the Outlaw is more powerful, almost 50%, under 2 Ch driven into 4 ohm conditions, that's 1.7 dB difference in terms of sound pressure level.

No, given that the Denon actually has a little lower distortions, a flatter FR with wider bandwidth (to 100 kHz), and better SNR, I would bet in a DBT we humans cannot tell the difference between the two. In a sighted subjective test then of course all bets are off, but then again as Dr. Floyd Toole said, if you know which one is playing, I don't care what you think....

 

[DJ7675]

In terms of power needed to "control the cone movement.....", It is true that you need to have enough current output from the driving amplifier for the particular speakers it is driving, but if you listen to well below reference level and the amp is only outputting a few watts with peaks to may be 30-50 W, then most 4 ohm nominal well designed speakers such as KEF, Revel, Focal, SVS, Elac's etc., will have all the currents they need for them to behave well.

Let's see a numerical example in the comparison of amp A and amp B below (all values are in RMS)

Amp A is rated 300 W into 4 ohms, so rated current is 8.66 A (formula not show, so trust me..)

Amp B is an AVR, rated 100 W into 8 ohms, 50 W into 4 ohms, so rated current is 3.54 A

Obviously Amp A can deliver more than double the current that Amp B can, but it should be obvious to anyone that if the speaker in use only needs say 1.5 A to produce the maximum peak SPL the user needs at his mlp, then it would make no difference to the speakers which am is in use. Simple and logical right? If not, please tell me why.., if yes, then stopped listening to hearsay created by professional reviewers who have little technical knowledge. Again the principle is correct but if stated as a general blanket statement then it can be misleading to a lot of people

Now back to your question about the 4700 vs 6700, assuming you are referring to the 2020 Denon AVR-X4700H and X6700H. If you are going to use external amp and you don't mind not having the DTS:X Pro, then in my opinion the X4700H is the better deal.

It is just too bad you have to use the amp assign trick because the new preamp mode is all or none. I hope you voted yes in my thread on a FW upgrade to make the preamp mode flexible.

For movies, the center channel is typically more demanding than the left and right, but the Denon can output much higher than 2 V, just that distortion pass at higher than about 1.5 V will increase, by the time it reaches 2 V, when the Monolith will be at its rated output, THD+N from the center channel pre out will at about 0.0187%, but that is just about the same as the Marantz AV7705. That's pretty amazing isn't it. And I highly doubt you have to worry about the AV7705's distortions for movies.

Below is the comparison between the AV7705 (a prepro) and the AVR-X3600H's (an AVR) center channel that cannot be disconnected so there affected by the power amp at the 2 V output level.

For an apple to apple comparison, the Marantz AV7705's 3.955 V is actually 1.9775 V if unbalance RCAs were used, so the comparisons below are fair, i.e. truly apple to apple.

View attachment 37153

View attachment 37154

Very nice to compare the Marantz 7705 to the x3600 which shows how good of a value it really is. Also a very good directly comparison at 2V. It may already be discussed elsewhere, but the X3600 @ 1.4v (which is 80/.5 on the master volume, basically at reverence level) has a SINAD of 97. To me this is the most important thing.. if you don't do anything special (amp assign etc) and keep the master volume under reference, you get excellent performance with the internal amps. You get this same excellent performance if you external amp doesn't need more than 1.4v. Many of the popular external amps such as outlaw and monoprice fit this criteria. If your external amps require the full 2V, then you do get the SINAD of 75. Knowing how to get the best performance out of units like the x3600 is what makes these bench tests so valueable.

 

[juma]

Thanks, i have been asking these question on other forum, but only got fanboy response to what should be ( like here ) really just a technical strait to the point answer.

 

[Pogre]

Recent research reveals that the lower priced models reveal that the Marantz models are warmer. But the flagship models sound very similar as many of the inner parts are identical.

Which research? I haven't seen any research done on "warmth".

 

[Trebdp83]

Oh, yeah, you don't remember that. They sent the new DENON and MARANTZ models to group therapy to see how they processed feelings as well as sound. They found the MARANTZ models did it all with a bit of warmth compassion while the DENON models were very cold and apathetic. In fact, the DENON X6700 was singled out as being a mean girl.

 

[alkemomo]

Which research? I haven't seen any research done on "warmth".

Google Denon vs Marantz.

 

[DJ7675]

Google Denon vs Marantz.

IMHO I actually don’t buy Marantz being the more “musical” or “warmer” brand vs Denon. If you visit the Marantz website, it seems their marketing seems to portray that. And in the threads on AVSforum, you hear it repeated time and time again. But marketing and people repeating it doesn’t necessarily make it true.

 

[Pogre]

Google Denon vs Marantz.

I have. Many times. Haven't seen the research you're referencing.

 

[Pogre]

I have seen this research tho, which shows that the Denon X3600H, a mid tier AVR, showed better distortion numbers than one of Marantz's flagship processors, the AV8805 when you reassign the preouts on the Denon.

Denon AVR-X3600H AV Receiver Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3600H 9.2 channel AVR. It was purchased new by a kind member who drop shipped it to me. It costs US $1,099. From outside the AVR-X3600H seems like any other AVR: But the controls feel a lot better than some other AVRs. The...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I'll take research like that over a hundred subjective reviews with comments about "warmth" when it comes to receivers.

 

[tparm]

Denon AVR-X4700H 2020 AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the newly announced Denon AVR-X4700H 9.2 channel AVR. It was kindly purchased by a member and drop shipped to me for testing. It costs US $1,700 on Amazon including Prime shipping. NOTE: post publication of this review, Denon Engineering kindly...

www.audiosciencereview.com

oops.

 

[PENG]

Denon AVR-X4700H 2020 AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the newly announced Denon AVR-X4700H 9.2 channel AVR. It was kindly purchased by a member and drop shipped to me for testing. It costs US $1,700 on Amazon including Prime shipping. NOTE: post publication of this review, Denon Engineering kindly...

www.audiosciencereview.com

oops.

The 3600 seems like a treasure now.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Are you kidding me?! I love watching and listening to Carter play! He is very, very good! The fact that he's left handed is what makes him fun to watch for me. I play right handed, like 99% of the drummers I know, lol.

Pretty sure Carter just plays open handed a lot. Steve Smith of Journey is another famous one. I also play right handed, but have played on left handed kits. It’s super weird! But can do it. I also like open handed once in awhile.

 

[DigitalDawn]

Curious to find out if there are similar results from the new Marantz AVRs when they come out.

 

[VMPS-TIII]

The 3600 seems like a treasure now.

Ouch.... that review put a dent in the glimmer of the new Denon 8K receivers. Makes 3600 look good.

 

[PENG]

Ouch.... that review put a dent in the glimmer of the new Denon 8K receivers. Makes 3600 look good.

Keep in mind that Amir's main issue is the poor SINAD for the HDMI input, but if you look carefully, the numbers were still better than that of the AV7705, but a few dB worse than the AV8805 that the X3600H managed to beat.

So for intents and purposes, the AVR-X4700H isn't bad, you can't really hear 0.004% THD+N, and not too many integrated amps or even separates measured better so far. It is just that particular AVR-X3600H he measured happened to be exceptionally good, with SINAD matching the top Emo on the chart.

Look at it the bright side, now that we have seen 3 Denon measured, we have seen enough samples to say confidently that Denon AVRs with pre out could be a better option than the Marantz separate AVPs until balanced connections and 7.1 analogs are needed.

Edit: I referred to the just measured 4700 not the 4500, but I doubt the results would have been different, aside from the differences mostly due to "tolerances" of the volume control and/or DAC chips that I am speculating, plus the new 8K HDMI board might have been the contributor to the lower SINAD as well as Amir seemed to have alluded to that as well, though he also clarified that he was using the regular HDMI (nont 8K) port.

 

[ryanosaur]

the AVR-X4500H isn't bad

4500, or 4700, here?

 

[tparm]

Keep in mind that Amir's main issue is the poor SINAD for the HDMI input, but if you look carefully, the numbers were still better than that of the AV7705, but a few dB worse than the AV8805 that the X3600H managed to beat.

So for intents and purposes, the AVR-X4500H isn't bad, you can't really hear 0.004% THD+N, and not too many integrated amps or even separates measured better so far. It is just that particular AVR-X3600H he measured happened to be exceptionally good, with SINAD matching the top Emo on the chart.

Look at it the bright side, now that we have seen 3 Denon measured, we have seen enough samples to say confidently that Denon AVRs with pre out could be a better option than the Marantz separate AVPs until balanced connections and 7.1 analogs are needed.

What is so disheartening for me is that these things fall on their face using HDMI inputs. My UDP and Apple TV 4k both use HDMI (of course) and from the tests over on ASR the X3600 exhibited the best integration on the digital side. It beat the X4700, the HTP-1 and my AVR850. I am anxious to see the T778 results but don't have high expectations. I'm sure I am overthinking all of this, but that's what we do..... within the next ten months I need to complete my rig for my new house without going broke. And I am more perplexed now than ever!

 

[Gmoney]

4500, or 4700, here?

3600 is the best Value for Denon, even better if you can find a 3500 new. Yamaha may be most reliable with Exceptions to the fact that Yamaha AVR's Do have issues like every Manufacture does. With the way the Market is today ever changing technology after five years AVR's just about out dated anyways. 8K than 25k gonna be out in 7 years. So buy with that in mind. or Do like Gene and keep your old VHS player.