Denon New AV Receivers have 4 Features Nobody Else Has!

AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
So the question is 8500 or 6700?
It depends on whether you can get all the same features (including HDMI 2.1 for 8K, DTSX Pro for 30 speakers :D, and dual Presets) with a firmware update.

I have doubts about upgrading to HDMI 2.1 with firmware since in the past HDMI updates have been hardware updates, not firmware.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Ninja
All the whining I did to Denon about announcing their new AVR's with HDMI 2.1 support and now I have to keep whining that there is only port that will pass 4k/120 10bit graphics when I need at least 3. There's always something. Gamers looking for a way to enjoy an Xbox Series X, PS5 and PC with forthcoming Nvidia and AMD cards have no choice but to buy an LG OLED for it's four 40Gbps ports and use earc. Not the worst solution but not the greatest plan ever conceived.
If only we could move away from HDMI and just start using Display Port like I use on my monitor. Can't beat 21:9 with G-sync, but I'd love to see how variable refresh works on a large OLED TV. Once my plasma finally dies, it'll be time to upgrade the office receiver so it supports all this fancy stuff.
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic General
....the Outlaw 5000 is an insane value.
Yes, it certainly is. When I first got into home theater I lived at home, was making great money and spent a ton on home theater equipment. Now married, kids, mortgage, two car payments, I have to be much smarter with my money and home theater equipment. My speakers are all open box or scratch and dent with not an issue to be told. My Denon X3400H was on clearance when the new receivers were announced last year. There Parasound amp is a remnant of my past crazy spending.
If I were to need a new amp in the future id be buying Outlaw Audio. I like using the cheapest Denon with pre outs as a processor. All those features can't be beat and drives my amp.
Oh and my Sony 900E was on sale, plus open box with absolutely no issues at all.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 
I

IMWhizzle

Audioholic Intern
Just for fun, let's say you were given a new X3700 and had to use it in pre-amp mode (so you can't use any internal amplification), what amp(s) would you pair with it?
I have a Rotel RMB-1575 and it’s delivering 250 watts per channel, five channels driven. I was hoping Sound United would give users the choice to select which amps could be enabled or disabled. With the pre-amp mode I need to buy a additional power amp for driving the Atmos channels.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
It's not just firmware, the hardware needs to support shutting off the power to the power amp section and I'm not sure the protection circuitry can be controlled in the menu.
Actually you are half right, but for the wrong reason. It does only need firmware because it has nothing to do with the protective circuitry but to do with the existing amp assign functions that are done via the NJU72750AV switches that already exist to implement the limited amp assign functions.

Half right for the wrong reason because on double checking the schematics, the amp assign functions do not involve the SL, SR and C channels so a FW upgrade can only provide the option to disconnect 6 of the 9 channels (using the AVR-X4500H/SR7013 as example). The SL, SR and C channels cannot be disconnected without adding another NJU72750AV.

So thanks for the alert and I am going to see if I can delete my meaningless poll.
 
M

mikelee

Audiophyte
So this is NOT going to be available in the X8500?
Dual Presets, allows full configuration settings including independent Audyssey calibrations

Bummer, I was looking at an X8500 purchase during black Friday deal time. The above feature would work well in my home as my viewing room can be either open during the day or closed up in the evening.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
I gotta say, brilliant move(s) on their part. Preamp mode by itself is gonna be a huge point of difference between them and the competition. At least until the rest follow suit.

I love it. This is actually meaningful, imo. Great job gene, discovering and bringing it to their attention!
 
M

mikelee

Audiophyte
Do you have to use preamp out mode to get signal to the appropriate preamp outputs on the back of the receiver ?
Is it either/ or?
If left in normal amplifiers on mode, if the preamp outputs are still hot, then it seems it would be a non-issue for the mixed mode of using the internal amps for some speakers and external amp for others.
Sorry if this is a noob question but I'm just getting into looking at the newer generation of receivers. Essentially the higher end stuff.
 
Jon AA

Jon AA

Audioholic
So the question is 8500 or 6700?
In my opinion, the 6700 is the much better value right now. It seems the only things you get with the 8500 are slightly more powerful amps, an extra set of speaker terminals and a little more flexibility in assigning amps. None of that is worth the price difference to me.

And you get some things on the 6700 that you don't on the 8500--the main one being two speaker layout/Audyssey presets you can switch between on the fly. To me that's pretty huge.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
In my opinion, the 6700 is the much better value right now. It seems the only things you get with the 8500 are slightly more powerful amps, an extra set of speaker terminals and a little more flexibility in assigning amps. None of that is worth the price difference to me.

And you get some things on the 6700 that you don't on the 8500--the main one being two speaker layout/Audyssey presets you can switch between on the fly. To me that's pretty huge.
I still haven't fully caught up on this, yet, but the idea of individual Amp Assign is what needs to happen. Hell, I'd be happy if they designed it in mind for a 5-channel external Amp being applied to the Front3+Surrounds leaving only 6-8 Channels of On-Board Amps (freely assignable). Maybe next year brings the 8800?...

But I agree, for many the 6700 is where it's at in this group. But for the money, and the additional external Amps, I'm still leaning more towards an HTP1 rather than something like the 6700.

By the time the 8500 gets refreshed, I feel it will be too far behind the curve to be a worthwhile purchase.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Actually you are half right, but for the wrong reason. It does only need firmware because it has nothing to do with the protective circuitry but to do with the existing amp assign functions that are done via the NJU72750AV switches that already exist to implement the limited amp assign functions.

Half right for the wrong reason because on double checking the schematics, the amp assign functions do not involve the SL, SR and C channels so a FW upgrade can only provide the option to disconnect 6 of the 9 channels (using the AVR-X4500H/SR7013 as example). The SL, SR and C channels cannot be disconnected without adding another NJU72750AV.

So thanks for the alert and I am going to see if I can delete my meaningless poll.
But, didn't Gene find that disconnecting the power from the power amplifier section yielded the best results? THAT'S where I think the break needs to occur and I doubt the protection circuit does anything with it.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
But, didn't Gene find that disconnecting the power from the power amplifier section yielded the best results? THAT'S where I think the break needs to occur and I doubt the protection circuit does anything with it.
No he didn't say that, he just said disconnect. In fact, he had previously said Denon's preamp mode (dated back to the older models such as the X7200W and 4520) were not truly preamp mode because the power amp sections were still powered. As far as I know, no AVRs have the power disconnect feature. In the Y-tube video he even asked the Denon reps if in this so called preamp mode for the 2020 models, would automatically switch ECO to "ON', in order to run cooler by lowering the rail voltage, implying power is still on.

Regardless, in terms of audio performance it should not matter because if you look at the ASR measurements, the reviewer (Amir) have already verified that even just by disconnecting the pre-outs to the power amp inputs, the AVR-X3600H measured just a touch below the $4999 Emotiva prepro but better than the Marantz AV7705 and TLSGuy seems to like. In fact, the Denon AVR also measured better than the Marantz current AVP flagship AV8805. The Marantz are real AVPs, i.e. without power amps, so we should be able to logically assume while disconnecting the power supply completely to the power amp section must be better in theory, it may not make any measurable difference.

Note that in the chart below, at slightly below reference level, -0.5 volume position, the Denon's SINAD actually exceeded the $5,000 Emotiva RMC-1's 100 SINAD.

Amir noted: If you reduce the output to 1.4 volts, SINAD of the center channel improves to 97 dB whereas the Left goes up to 103 dB. This is at volume position 79.5 dB (above is at 82.5).

The 103 was obviously a typo, if you look at the display it was 100.352 dB, but that's less than 0.001 % THD+N.

That's when he was asked to compare with and without power amp disconnected, so he set it up to compare the left and the center channel. The AVR-X3600H can only disconnect the front left and right channel. I know this sounds confusing but I hope it is clear enough for you.

That's THD+N of only 0.00096%

ASR review - with power amp disconnected vs connected

1591446895011.png
 
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S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
I wonder why only the one HDMI 2.1 input? I would guess they feel pretty confident relying on eARC with the TV as the hub. Also I’m unclear why 40Gbps and not 48Gbps. Is that all that really is usable?
 
D

DJ7675

Audioholic
So the question is 8500 or 6700?
Both are pretty amazing values in my opinion (if one can say that about things costing this much). I would say the x8500 is the better value:
-With custom amp assign, you can disconnect any channel to get max performance with external amps. Being able to use the internal amplification for surrounds while disconnecting R/L/C is really a great feature for those wanting to use external amps on some channels
-Have the extra pair of speaker terminals you can get automatically speaker layouts used for Atmos/Auro3d/DTSx
If you don’t need 8K, I would get an X8500 which can be had around $2999 (open box full warranty) from places like safeandsoundhq. If/when 8K becomes an issue, it can be sent in for upgrade.
 
I

IMWhizzle

Audioholic Intern
Both are pretty amazing values in my opinion (if one can say that about things costing this much). I would say the x8500 is the better value:
-With custom amp assign, you can disconnect any channel to get max performance with external amps. Being able to use the internal amplification for surrounds while disconnecting R/L/C is really a great feature for those wanting to use external amps on some channels
-Have the extra pair of speaker terminals you can get automatically speaker layouts used for Atmos/Auro3d/DTSx
If you don’t need 8K, I would get an X8500 which can be had around $2999 (open box full warranty) from places like safeandsoundhq. If/when 8K becomes an issue, it can be sent in for upgrade.
Wait a minute, so with the 8500 the user can choose to drive the five bed channels with an external amp and 4 four Atmos channels which are driven by the internal amps? The rest of the internal amps can be disconnected?
 
D

DJ7675

Audioholic
Wait a minute, so with the 8500 the user can choose to drive the five bed channels with an external amp and 4 four Atmos channels which are driven by the internal amps? The rest of the internal amps can be disconnected?
Yes. To my knowledge it is the only Denon/Marantz that has this feature. With it you can reassign the amp to another use such as zone 2 or zone 3, or it has the option to set it to none.
denon_8500h.png
 
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D

DJ7675

Audioholic
@gene
First, thank you for the great video with the folks at Denon. Very well done! Can you confirm with them that the x3700h/x4700h/6700h cannot selectively disconnect amps as the x8500 can? Is it something that they could implement with a firmware, or is it something that is hardware limited. Having a preamp mode is fantastic, but it is a shame if these new units can't disconnect some of the amps to use with external amplification (to get the improved performance), and use the internal amps for the rest of the channels.
 
I

IMWhizzle

Audioholic Intern
Yes. To my knowledge it is the only Denon/Marantz that has this feature. With it you can reassign the amp to another use such as zone 2 or zone 3, or it has the option to set it to none.View attachment 36876
Doesn’t custom in this case refer to the main zone and other zones?

I would like to disconnect the LCR, SL and SR because I’m using a dedicated 5-channel power amp. So the 8500 can power the four Atmos channels only. If this is truly possible than the updated 8500 will be my next avr.
 
D

DJ7675

Audioholic
Doesn’t custom in this case refer to the main zone and other zones?

I would like to disconnect the LCR, SL and SR because I’m using a dedicated 5-channel power amp. So the 8500 can power the four Atmos channels only. If this is truly possible than the updated 8500 will be my next avr.
I will take some snapshots of the menu which will make it more clear. But with each channel you can control what you want the amp to do. If you set it to another zone, or "none" no output will come out of the speaker terminals, therefore the amp is disconnected. So yes, this feature, if only in the x8500 makes it a tremendous value. Using as many of the amps as you want for surrounds/atmos etc and using external amps with the increase performance of disconnecting the internal amps is what makes it the best value.
 
I

IMWhizzle

Audioholic Intern
Would be hugely appreciated if you can post photos or videos of this feature. I didn't know it was even possible on the 8500, I thought is was all or nothing. Disconnecting amps and select which internal amps should be connected so that the AVR can act as a pure processor is what I'm after.

On my current Marantz 7011 I selected the 11.1 amp assign and selected the mains as pre outs. I also set the back surrounds on "none", because I don't use them. But with the 7011 all internal amps are always connected, no matter the amp assign.
 

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