Comparison between the Hsu VTF-3 HO and the SVS PB12-Ultra

[dirtraven]

SVS Plus Vs Ultra

This kindda proves what I though about the Ultra and the Plus. The Plus is actually a better bang for the buck than the Ultra considering they both use the same AMP but I always figure the Ultra would need a bit more juice to run that Big ol' Driver.

 

[Duffman-OOHYEAH]

Finally ... I have a protoype of the new Onix/Rocket MFW-12 here. I did some GP sessions yesterday ... I am not sure whether they are going to make any changes in the design before production begins, but look for more on this later, too.

Looks like you have taken some teasing lessons from mls as well. At least tell us how it looks!

Nice work on the comparo. The weather yesterday was in a word ... perfect, hopefully you didn't spend all day lugging subs around.

JR

 

[craigsub]

JR - I have a "mule" for testing purposes. It is raw MDF, sans finish. It certainly does have potential, as there are some pretty cool styling cues on it. I think the guys at AV123 posted it on their website.

Before posting any data on it, I thought it would be proper to let them see the numbers, and to give them a chance to let me know what, if any, changes they are planning before production.

 

[ssabripo]

Sherv - Correct, except it is not the plus/2 ... it is the PB12-Plus. Objectively, the HO goes deeper/louder with the Turbo (than the non-turbo), even though my ears thought the non-turbo sounds better.

oh, it's the Plus and not plus/2 ? I just confused myself again... I thought Ed and Ilkka had measured the Plus/2 and not the Plus...You are right: they were for the Plus, not Plus/2

Also, I thought the HO didn't have numbers below its tunning freq of 22...where the numbers below 22hz on the HO with or without the Turbo? Sorry if I make no sense....you know all that landscaping beat the sh!t out of me yesterday!

I think these are the numbers, as I understand them:

freq ....HO ..... HO(turbo) ..... Plus (16) ........ Plus(20)..... ..... Ultra(20).... Ultra(16)
16....... x ....... 92.8 ............ 95 .................. x x ................... xx ............ 96.3
18....... x ....... 97.5 ............ 99.4 ..................91.1................. xx ............ ??
20....... x ....... 103.1 .......... 100.9................101.3............... 102.6 ..........101.3
22.......103.4..... ?? ............ 99.9 .................104 ................ ??? ............ ???
25....... 103.9....103.6.......... 101.9................105.8............... 105.9 ..........104.2
31....... 106.9....106.9.......... 106.7................108.4............... 109.1 ..........107.7
40....... 106.6....106..6.......... 107.3...............108.5............... 109..............107
50....... 107.4....107.4.......... 106.7............... 107.2............... 106..............104.6

these are based on what you posted for the HO, and the numbers from Ed's review of the plus/2 (and Ilkka's), as well as the AVforums/Finish shootou Ultra numbers.....

EDIT- Correction: I was wrong craig...those indeed ARE Plus numbers, not Plus/2 ...man, I'm just full of mistakes lately!

 

[craigsub]

Sherv - No worries, man. Keeping up with all this stuff is pretty difficult. I do believe the numbers were appx. the same @ 22 Hz with or w/o the turbo.

Nice job putting the columns together - it gives a pretty good feel for all these subs.

 

[JHixson]

Craig have you compared the HO turbo with a plugged HO in 16Hz tune?

 

[craigsub]

Craig have you compared the HO turbo with a plugged HO in 16Hz tune?

Yes - Somewhere in here there is a "peak hold" graph of the two configurations during (I think) WOTW ... basically, they sound and measure comparibly, with the turbo, of course, having more headroom.

 

[jerrodshook]

Craig,

Nice to see another PSU grad in da house! I graduated in 1997, Mechanical Engineering degree....

Good job on the review so far. I have the HO w/ turbo on pre-order right now so I've been reading/lurking thru all of this fun. I'm almost considering removing the turbo from my order because it seems as if the sub kicks a$$ without it...???

A final question about calibration, has anyone used microphones from PA/band equipment? I'm in a band and have Shure SM-57's, 58's, Beta mics, condenser mics, etc.... The SM-57 is a great overall mic and I'm just wondering if it would work? I can't see why it wouldn't.....

 

[craigsub]

Craig,

Nice to see another PSU grad in da house! I graduated in 1997, Mechanical Engineering degree....

Good job on the review so far. I have the HO w/ turbo on pre-order right now so I've been reading/lurking thru all of this fun. I'm almost considering removing the turbo from my order because it seems as if the sub kicks a$$ without it...???

A final question about calibration, has anyone used microphones from PA/band equipment? I'm in a band and have Shure SM-57's, 58's, Beta mics, condenser mics, etc.... The SM-57 is a great overall mic and I'm just wondering if it would work? I can't see why it wouldn't.....

For $100, Keep the turbo option ... there will be the occasion to use it. Besides, you may prefer the turbo, just like some guys/rooms like the SVS better in its 20 Hz tune. Just because I like the non-turbo for most material does not mean everyone will.

As for the microphone, TrueRTA allows for calibrating to a particular microphone, so yours should work just fine.

 

[jmprader]

freq ....HO ..... HO(turbo) ..... Plus (16) ........ Plus(20)..... ..... Ultra(20).... Ultra(16)
16....... x ....... 92.8 ............ 95 .................. x x ................... xx ............ 96.3
18....... x ....... 97.5 ............ 99.4 ..................91.1................. xx ............ ??
20....... x ....... 103.1 .......... 100.9................101.3............... 102.6 ..........101.3
22.......103.4..... ?? ............ 99.9 .................104 ................ ??? ............ ???
25....... 103.9....103.6.......... 101.9................105.8............... 105.9 ..........104.2
31....... 106.9....106.9.......... 106.7................108.4............... 109.1 ..........107.7
40....... 106.6....106..6.......... 107.3...............108.5............... 109..............107
50....... 107.4....107.4.......... 106.7............... 107.2............... 106..............104.6

More Good Stuff, Craig. And fine backup support Sherv...now that your yard work is done, and the wiring re-engineered, we'll expect the pre-release SCS performance specs alongside these soon.

While any group of #'s may have have been slightly influenced by testing conditions (nitpickers and sub-supremacists beware), the outcomes are so close that "purchase decisions" for many will certainly require weighing other variables IMHO.

Craig, any GP FR plots or waterfalls for the HO/turbo to share?

Off to pre-game fun for the NCAA championship. Go left-coast...

 

[Peter Marcks]

Dear Craig,

Everyone who has already received a VTF-3 HO will be getting revised drivers at no extra cost.

Sincerely,

 

[craigsub]

Dear Craig,

Everyone who has already received a VTF-3 HO will be getting revised drivers at no extra cost.

Sincerely,

Peter - While I have not had any problems with our VTF-3 HO's, when the new drivers arrive, count on some more listening and another set of Ground Plane measurements ...

JM ... Being the computer genius that I am, I forgot to save the HO's FR sweep. It was very flat, though ... the standard configuration hit 23 Hz @ - 3 dB, and the Turbo configuration hit 18 Hz.

 

[AMG_Roadster]

I must have missed the issue in the preceding 39 pages. What is the issue with the current drivers and what is being done to address it? How will the new drivers differ?

 

[JeffD2.]

Re: Replacement Drivers

This QC issue, especially at a product launch, is almost inconceivable to me. This isn't like a loose solder joint or something. Is there precedent for this?

 

[craigsub]

This QC issue, especially at a product launch, is almost inconceivable to me. This isn't like a loose solder joint or something. Is there precedent for this?

Jeff - Hsu was promised a driver to be delivered according to their specs. As with most subwoofer companies, they buy their drivers from another source.

Putting this into plain terms, the driver company screwed up, but this was out of Hsu's hands.

Think of the problem if TC Sounds delivered 1000 faulty Ultra drivers to SVS ... it could happen to anyone, and there is nothing a company can do but make things right, which is what Hsu is doing.

 

[Peter Marcks]

Dear Jeff,

This QC issue, especially at a product launch, is almost inconceivable to me. This isn't like a loose solder joint or something. Is there precedent for this?

The drivers that we received a few weeks ago were not built exactly to the specs that we wanted. We have only shipped out about a dozen VTF-3 HO's, knowing that each of these owners would receive a revised driver at some point moving forward. Sound quality with the VTF-3 HO driver is very good, but there are still some issues with the driver such as popping noises at higher SPL levels. So the driver is being refined, and the subwoofer should perform much better at higher SPL levels when all is said and done, I think! Please stay tuned.

Sincerely,

 

[jerrodshook]

Dear Jeff,

The drivers that we received a few weeks ago were not built exactly to the specs that we wanted. We have only shipped out about a dozen VTF-3 HO's, knowing that each of these owners would receive a revised driver at some point moving forward. Sound quality with the VTF-3 HO driver is very good, but there are still some issues with the driver such as popping noises at higher SPL levels. So the driver is being refined, and the subwoofer should perform much better at higher SPL levels when all is said and done, I think! Please stay tuned.

Sincerely,

Peter,
I called the office today and was told late May would be the ship date for my pre-order. I think I'm in the next batch, so does that seem like a real date??? Assuming we have no other issues "pop" up....

 

[JeffD2.]

Craig & Peter,

I know the sub companies outsource the drivers, but Peter's previous statement "Everyone who has already received a VTF-3 HO will be getting revised drivers at no extra cost." indicates that ALL HO's were defective. I'm not trying to bash the VTF-3 HO but because of Peter's previous statement I had an issue with QC. Kudos to Hsu for covering all their customers.

 

[craigsub]

Jeff ... Hsu had announced a while ago that they would replace all the drivers. I had promised Dr. Hsu this shootout would be held up if I had a problem with my two subs. So far, they have been fine - but it will be interesting to see if there is any improvement with the new drivers.

There is a QC problem, but it was with the driver company, not Hsu.

No worries, though - you are a good guy, and your question was quite legit.

 

[JonnyOzero3]

Driver problem or no, I'm not complaining...this sub sounds quite nice. I'll get around to posting full impressions once I have the time to update my HK's firmware (for the auto eq which is making a significant difference) and really get things tweaked.