Comparison between the Hsu VTF-3 HO and the SVS PB12-Ultra

[craigsub]

N00b ALERT
What is the difference between parametric and graphic equilization?

A graphic EQ has fixed center frequencies, and fixed "widths" of what they cover. The simplest way to look at it is by octave, for a 10 band, one band per octave graphic EQ. It will be centered at each octave from 20 to 20,000 Hz, with each adjustment being one octave wide.

A parametric EQ is much more complex - you set the center frequency, width (usually from a fraction of an octave to multiple octaves), and boost or cut.

If you have, for example, a 7 dB peak at 34 Hz, which is 1/3rd octave wide, a parametric will allow you to pinpoint the precise center frequency, 1/3rd octave width, and 7 dB cut needed.

 

[---k---]

Craig,
With my $99 Behringer 1124, I use my RS SPL Meter as a mic, a $49 Creative Labs USB Live soundcard, and RoomEQWizard (Free!!!!). For what we're measuring, the RS Meter is just fine. And RoomEqWizard is just as good as anything out there for simple FR graphs, and as an added bonus, it can mimic the BFD and will determine the peaks in your FR graph and figure out the filters needed, and show you the result without remeasuring. I've found it to be very accurate. So, it can be done much cheaper.

Those with an SMS-1 might want to check out RoomEQWizard also. It now has the ability to mimic a SMS-1 and figure out the filters. Someone at AVS recently showed the differance between the SMS auto settings and the auto setting suggested by RoomEq, and they showed a much flatter response with using RoomEq. So, worth checking out since it is free.

 

[craigsub]

Craig,
With my $99 Behringer 1124, I use my RS SPL Meter as a mic, a $49 Creative Labs USB Live soundcard, and RoomEQWizard (Free!!!!). For what we're measuring, the RS Meter is just fine. And RoomEqWizard is just as good as anything out there for simple FR graphs, and as an added bonus, it can mimic the BFD and will determine the peaks in your FR graph and figure out the filters needed, and show you the result without remeasuring. I've found it to be very accurate. So, it can be done much cheaper.

Those with an SMS-1 might want to check out RoomEQWizard also. It now has the ability to mimic a SMS-1 and figure out the filters. Someone at AVS recently showed the differance between the SMS auto settings and the auto setting suggested by RoomEq, and they showed a much flatter response with using RoomEq. So, worth checking out since it is free.

Ryan - I saw that thread, and hoped one of you engineering types would chime in with more details on the use of the Rad Shack meter and other programs which are available. (Please note, I DID mention the Rad Shack, and that one could do eq'ing "on the cheap") ...

You must keep in mind, my friend, that I was a Physucks (that was a tribute to your engi-nerd joke about yourself) major at Penn State, class of 1982. However, when I was finishing up, and learned what guys in my major were making, the world of finance suddenly looked better. They wanted a guy to work an ENTIRE YEAR for $36,000 (about $75K today) ...

Therefore, I LOVE engineers ... SOMEONE has to do all that work ...

 

[Loner]

The SMS-1 is a totally self-contained unit, with 8 bands of Parametric EQ. It has a microphone, all cables necessary, etc ...

The Behringer has 10 bands of Parametric, a 31 band graphic, and a built in RTA. You still need a microphone, upgraded sound card ... etc ...

But - done properly, You can put together a solid eq set up with higher resolution with the Behringer. They even make a version without the graphic eq and RTA which can be picked up for $99, the 1124. It even has, if memory serves, 2 x 12 channels which can actually be used as a single channel, 24 band EQ.

Dear Mods:

I have a suggestion for y'all. I believe we should have a new TOPICS section that takes into consideration Craigsub's audio knowledge base. I was thinking of a few names y'all might call it:

Dear Craig.......(you know, kinda like Dear Abbey)

Craig's SuBport Group......(a little play on the word 'support')

SubTracts...........(Ok, this is really stretching it)

Whatcha say mods? Of course, Craigsub would have to agree to such a thing.

Anyway, thanks for the response Craig!

 

[craigsub]

Loner ... Personally, I would settle for getting this down to 2 stupid things per review. However ... your "Dear Craigsub" idea has a lot of merit ... but, rather than that, a "Dear Audioholics" forum would be a better idea. I learn at least as much from other people as they learn from me ... let's get everyone involved, and we all benefit.

 

[Sheep]

Dear Mods:

I have a suggestion for y'all. I believe we should have a new TOPICS section that takes into consideration Craigsub's audio knowledge base. I was thinking of a few names y'all might call it:

Dear Craig.......(you know, kinda like Dear Abbey)

Craig's SuBport Group......(a little play on the word 'support')

SubTracts...........(Ok, this is really stretching it)

Whatcha say mods? Of course, Craigsub would have to agree to such a thing.

Anyway, thanks for the response Craig!

I think the loudspeaker section and review section will do.

SheepStar

 

[Tomorrow]

Dear Mods:

I have a suggestion for y'all. I believe we should have a new TOPICS section that takes into consideration Craigsub's audio knowledge base. I was thinking of a few names y'all might call it:

Dear Craig.......(you know, kinda like Dear Abbey)

Craig's SuBport Group......(a little play on the word 'support')

SubTracts...........(Ok, this is really stretching it)

Whatcha say mods? Of course, Craigsub would have to agree to such a thing.

Anyway, thanks for the response Craig!

After this thread, we sure can't call it SUBtle. (Are we up to 50k reads, yet?)

 

[craigsub]

True Ground Plane Stuff ...

Here are some graphs of today's GP session.

First ... Ed's graph of the PB-10 :

And today's graph of the PB-10 :

We have a higher noise floor today thanks to several neighbors doing yard work ...

 

[craigsub]

Here are the numbers for the VTF-3 HO ....

With Turbo -

16 Hz - 92.8 dB
18 Hz - 97.5 dB
20 Hz - 103.1 dB
25 Hz - 103.6 dB

Without Turbo -

22 Hz - 103.4 dB
25 Hz - 103.9 dB
31 Hz - 106.9 dB
40 Hz - 106.6 dB
50 Hz - 107.4 dB

From 31 Hz and up, Turbo and non-turbo matched. All figures are with less than 10% THD.

Here is a graph of the VTF-3 HO @ 31 Hz ...

 

[---k---]

Bad neighbors! Can't you let them borrow the vette or something to get rid of them for the day.

I much more quickly understand FR response graphs. Any possibility of a few? I probably most appreciate the FR graphs at various levels to show where compresion occures. Something like this (From Ed's PB12+/2 review):

 

[craigsub]

Ryan - I do not have a program available to run one of the "reverse sine wave" sweeps like the one you showed. Those also just show max SPL, regardless of distortion.

If you look at the graph of the VTF-3 HO, the number in the upper left hand corner represents the SPL at the particular frequency.

In other words, Ed and I both measured 94 dB @ 20 Hz for the PB10-ISD ... and the VTF-3 HO delivered 106.9 dB @ 31 Hz.

This is really simple ... all you need to do is look at the numbers I posted. No engineering degree required ...

 

[craigsub]

Here are the numbers for the VTF-3 HO ....

With Turbo -

16 Hz - 92.8 dB
18 Hz - 97.5 dB
20 Hz - 103.1 dB
25 Hz - 103.6 dB

Without Turbo -

22 Hz - 103.4 dB
25 Hz - 103.9 dB
31 Hz - 106.9 dB
40 Hz - 106.6 dB
50 Hz - 107.4 dB

From 31 Hz and up, Turbo and non-turbo matched. All figures are with less than 10% THD.

Here is a graph of the VTF-3 HO @ 31 Hz ...

For those looking at a direct comparison to the SVS ... Here are the numbers on the pb12-plus. One area of interest - it was always said that the "Plus" was about 1.5 to 2 dB lower in SPL than the Ultra. Based on some recent tests, the "new" (12.2) plus delivered about 4 dB more SPL than the old (12.1) Plus, in SPL below 22 Hz ... just something to keep in mind.

Matching things up ... it looks like we have these numbers ... Comparing Ed's numbers to what we got here today.

Freq ... SVS ....... Hsu
16 ... 95.0 ....... 92.8
18 ... 99.4 ....... 97.5
20 ... 101.3 ...... 103.1
22 ... 104.0 ...... 103.4
25 ... 105.8 ...... 103.9
31 ... 108.4 ...... 106.9
40 ... 108.5 ...... 106.6
50 ... 107.2 ...... 107.4

 

[ssabripo]

Freq ... SVS ....... Hsu
16 ... 95.0 ....... 92.8
18 ... 99.4 ....... 97.5
20 ... 101.3 ...... 103.1
22 ... 104.0 ...... 103.4
25 ... 105.8 ...... 103.9
31 ... 108.4 ...... 106.9
40 ... 108.5 ...... 106.6
50 ... 107.2 ...... 107.4

Craig, are those the Plus numbers or the Ultra numbers?

 

[craigsub]

Craig, are those the Plus numbers or the Ultra numbers?

Those are the Plus numbers from Ed's review ... Here are the Finnish shootout measurements in the Ultra ... Basically, they are a draw. One caveat on the Hsu's measurements - if Hsu Research (Peter Marcks, are you reading this ?) wants to send a new driver and have the numbers run again, that would be acceptable. The VTF-3HO did a pretty nice job in the SPL department, even if there is a problem with this driver. I have not noticed any problems, but wanted to make sure the offer was extended.

 

[ssabripo]

Those are the Plus numbers from Ed's review ... Here are the Finnish shootout measurements in the Ultra ... Basically, they are a draw. One caveat on the Hsu's measurements - if Hsu Research (Peter Marcks, are you reading this ?) wants to send a new driver and have the numbers run again, that would be acceptable. The VTF-3HO did a pretty nice job in the SPL department, even if there is a problem with this driver. I have not noticed any problems, but wanted to make sure the offer was extended.

ahh...ok. So this is the Plus2 - HO - Ultra (16hz) numbers (correct me if they are wrong):

Freq ... Plus/2...... Hsu ........ Ultra(16)
16 ... 95.0 ....... 92.8 ........ 96.3
18 ... 99.4 ....... 97.5 ........ ?
20 ... 101.3 ...... 103.1........ 101.3
22 ... 104.0 ...... 103.4........ ?
25 ... 105.8 ...... 103.9........ 104.2
31 ... 108.4 ...... 106.9........ 107.7
40 ... 108.5 ...... 106.6........ 107
50 ... 107.2 ...... 107.4........ 104.6

 

[mike c]

hi craig

1) Behringer BFD = $99
2) Behringer ECM-800 = $50
3) Microphone cord = $20
4) RCA Adaptors = $30
5) Getting Microphone calibrated = $50
6) TrueRTA = $99**
7) M-Audio Mobile-pre= $149 **

is item 2 the same as the ECM8000?
what is item 5? calibrate where?
6 is software purchase? (blast)
7 whats that?

 

[Manic Miner]

Great stuff. I admire anyone who has the patience to drag a sub or three outside and measure them I'm moving atm, so I'm looking forward to lugging my 50kg of Plus up to the 4th floor. I just know I'm going to sound like a beached whale when I'm done

One thing, why are almost everyone referring to Ed's Plus test, and the SPL numbers as the Plus/2 test, and the Plus/2 SPL numbers? Am I missing something?

No I'll enjoy the numbers, thanks Craig

 

[craigsub]

Sherv - Correct, except it is not the plus/2 ... it is the PB12-Plus. Objectively, the HO goes deeper/louder with the Turbo (than the non-turbo), even though my ears thought the non-turbo sounds better.

Mike - Yes, it is the 8000, not the 800. Good catch.

And the last two are the TrueRTA software ... link to TrueRTA software

And the M-Audio mobile pre link to m-audio mobile-pre

The Mobile pre is likely a bit of overkill for most domestic purposes. I will bow to the computer experts for other soundcard choices. I like it because it has a USB interface including providing power to the microphone.

 

[mike c]

thanks craig for the info.

 

[craigsub]

Mike - You are welcome ...

One thing - The VTF-3 HO has the ability to go an extra 3-4 dB at each frequency before hitting 20 % THD. The Ultra pretty much just quits getting louder at the 10 % THD points.

If you look at this graph from Ed Mullen :

You can see the 20 Hz compression point is 102 dB vs. the 10% THD limited point of 101.3 dB.

When listening to program material, this places the actual performance between the two subwoofers even closer, based on what we hear.

This is the purpose of getting the Behringer - The Two subwoofer's relative weaknesses can be addressed, and we will also eliminate more of my room, and get more of just the subwoofers ... then we will wrap up this portion of the review ... figure late next week.

After that ... we will toss the EP-500 and Velodyne DD-18 into the mix.

Finally ... I have a protoype of the new Onix/Rocket MFW-12 here. I did some GP sessions yesterday ... I am not sure whether they are going to make any changes in the design before production begins, but look for more on this later, too.