Comparison between the Hsu VTF-3 HO and the SVS PB12-Ultra

[STRONGBADF1]

Now thats dedication!

Hi craigsub,

Thanks for all the work!

SBF1

 

[JonnyOzero3]

Nice job getting a workout in Craig Pardon my naivity, but I'm not quite sure what these graphs are telling us. Are they showing max output at freq X along with the corresponding harmonics and noise generated by the unit? And is it max output before compression or more than X% distortion? Should I be looking at these closely with something in mind? I don't know what is "best" here other than max spl.

I guess I haven't been paying enough attention in class...

Also - The Secrets link is broken now, and a google search of the site doesn't find the review.

Edit: A Summary of Max Spl by Freq (easier to see just the numeros):

SVS @ 16 Hz : 95.25dB
SVS @ 20 Hz : 100.2dB
SVS @ 25 Hz : 101.3dB
Hsu With Turbo @ 16 Hz : 97.98dB
Hsu With Turbo @ 20 Hz : 101.2dB
Hsu With Turbo @ 25 Hz : 102.3dB
Hsu Without Turbo @ 20 Hz : 97.41dB
Hsu Without Turbo @ 25 Hz : 104.2dB
Hsu Without Turbo @ 31 Hz : ~109.0dB

 

[jakeman]

And guys - I gotta tell you, lugging each of these subwoofers from our basement theater, all the way through the house, over to the big garage was no picnic. The PB12-Ultra is just plain a monster.

Hey Craig you saved yourself a trip to the gym. Pumping iron and lifting subwoofers have a lot in common. I bet no girlie-man will kick sand at you next time you go to the beach.

 

[ironmike86]

If the weights aren't working try this http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=200318223&R=200318223&storeId=6970&langId=-1&cm_ven=Performics&cm_cat=Performics&cm_pla=Performics&cm_ite=Performics

 

[jakeman]

Nice job getting a workout in Craig
Also - The Secrets link is broken now, and a google search of the site doesn't find the review.

That's strange. Overall I thought it was a good review. Maybe they took mine and Mark's constructive criticism to heart and we can expect a new version. I'll look for a cached copy in my computer.

 

[craigsub]

Pardon my naivity, but I'm not quite sure what these graphs are telling us. Are they showing max output at freq X along with the corresponding harmonics and noise generated by the unit? And is it max output before compression or more than X% distortion?

I guess I haven't been paying enough attention in class...

Also - The Secrets link is broken now, and a google search of the site doesn't find the review.

I don't have a THD software program - but, for example, a -20 dB level harmonic is 10% THD.

Before we get too far into that, let's talk about the noise in the graphs - You can see a higher noise floor in some graphs - that is just the furnace, which is intended to keep 5 cars warm - and it is loud.

However, that has no real impact on the SPL readings.

Look at the fundamental, then multiples above the fundamental. For example ... The VTF-3HO's graph has it delivering 98 dB @ 16 Hz ...

At 32 Hz, you have a 76 dB signal, which is about 8% HD (-22 dB is appx. 8%), plus about another 67 dB @ 48 Hz, which is another -31 dB, or about 2.6% HD ... for a total of appz. 10% (they are not directly additive, but this is pretty close - the formula is rather complicated, and for now, I just wanted to give everyone an idea of the relative performance levels of the two subs) ...

Here are some numbers which show how the relative levels of harmonics are switched to HD (harmonic distortion) ... dB Below Test Tone % Distortion

-5 dB 56.2 %
-10 dB 31.6 %
-15 dB 17.8 %
-20 dB 10.0 %
-25 dB 5.62 %
-30 dB 3.16 %
-35 dB 1.78 %
-40 dB 1.00 %
-45 dB .562 %
-50 dB .316 %
-55 dB .178 %
-60 dB .100 %

Simply put - if you have, say, 100 dB @ a 20 Hz test tone, and 75 dB as the harmonic at 40 Hz, that is -25 dB, or 5.62% HD. Let's then add a 65 dB Harmonic at 60 Hz ... that is -35 dB, or 1.78%.

All the distortion levels at each fundamental are added within a forumula, giving the total. I know Ed now uses a software package to tell the total, but, for the purpose of what we are doing here now, we will add them outside the forumla.

In the above example, just adding them together will yield 7.4% THD. It will be slightly less than that using the actual formula, but it is not enough of a difference to be of concern. The furnace is more of a problem here than that slight difference which the formula will change things. The numbers I posted will be within 1-2 dB of what you would get in a warm weather, totally outdoor session.

That seemed worth not waiting 2-3 weeks ... hopefully everyone will agree.

 

[JHixson]

I wish I had mine to lug around. It looks like I am going to have shoulder surgery before it arrives so if I can just move it far enough to reach the sub cable I will count it as a victory.

Craig when you say you prefer the HO without turbo is that music, HT or both. Or do you think that it may be because of the content you have been listening to, I am fairly lazy and think if I can get everything set up correctly I would not be wanting to remove the turbo for Jazz and add it for SciFi HT.

Thanks for all the hard work.

Jeff

 

[craigsub]

I wish I had mine to lug around. It looks like I am going to have shoulder surgery before it arrives so if I can just move it far enough to reach the sub cable I will count it as a victory.

Craig when you say you prefer the HO without turbo is that music, HT or both. Or do you think that it may be because of the content you have been listening to, I am fairly lazy and think if I can get everything set up correctly I would not be wanting to remove the turbo for Jazz and add it for SciFi HT.

Thanks for all the hard work.

Jeff

I think that you will find the turbo equipped sub, left that way, will operate just fine. When I say I prefer the unit sans turbo, it is during some real ANAL listening sessions.

I drive my family nuts with this stuff - but I liked the non turbo mostly because there is such a lack of real material below 20 Hz ... plus, if you recall, Mr. Wizard, also known as Craigsub, spent the first 3 days without using the supplied Carpet Grabber.

Give me a few days with the Turbo equipped (properly) sub - and I may even change my mind. It is a LOT better now that the Carpet Grabber is in place.

 

[JonnyOzero3]

Thanks for the explanation Craig - that made it much more clear.

Mr. Wizard huh? We can just call you SubDumbledore.

Edit - WOW...look at the difference between the first harmonic at 40Hz on the "With Turbo @ 20Hz" versus the "Without Turbo @ 20Hz" graphs for the HO. Big reduction in distortion down low with the Turbo I see.

 

[craigsub]

When comparing the VTF-3HO w/o Turbo, to the SVS ... let's look at what Ed measured in the SVS for its all ports open, 20 Hz setting ...

Here are the Hsu's numbers:
Hsu Without Turbo @ 20 Hz : 97.41dB
Hsu Without Turbo @ 25 Hz : 104.2dB
Hsu Without Turbo @ 31 Hz : ~106.3dB (actually, it was a total SPL of 109 dB)

Here are the PB12-Plus numbers from Ed:
SVS 20 Hz tune @ 20 Hz ... 101.3 dB
SVS 20 Hz tune @ 25 Hz ... 105.8 dB
SVS 20 Hz tune @ 31 Hz ... 108.4 dB (this was actually 32 Hz for the SVS)

If you look at all the numbers - they point to the SVS having a stronger driver, while the VTF-3 HO has more output from the port tuning especially with the Turbo installed.



Gee .. is anyone surprised ?

 

[finchna]

Hi Craig. I've enjoyed reading the comparison of the two subs. Thanks for all the work and posting. What do Ed's SVS numbers have to do with the SVS numbers you posted in the graphs? (extracted from the graphs by JonnyOzero3 below) Sorry if I missed it--were the ports set differently when you tested the subs? Are the numbers from the graphs you posted correct for the two subs at the moment of your testing? Thanks,

Nathan

======

from JonnyOzero3
SVS @ 16 Hz : 95.25dB
SVS @ 20 Hz : 100.2dB
SVS @ 25 Hz : 101.3dB
Hsu With Turbo @ 16 Hz : 97.98dB
Hsu With Turbo @ 20 Hz : 101.2dB
Hsu With Turbo @ 25 Hz : 102.3dB
Hsu Without Turbo @ 20 Hz : 97.41dB
Hsu Without Turbo @ 25 Hz : 104.2dB
Hsu Without Turbo @ 31 Hz : ~106.3dB

When comparing the VTF-3HO w/o Turbo, to the SVS ... let's look at what Ed measured in the SVS for its all ports open, 20 Hz setting ...

Here are the Hsu's numbers:
Hsu Without Turbo @ 20 Hz : 97.41dB
Hsu Without Turbo @ 25 Hz : 104.2dB
Hsu Without Turbo @ 31 Hz : ~106.3dB (actually, it was a total SPL of 109 dB)

Here are the PB12-Plus/2 numbers from Ed:
SVS 20 Hz tune @ 20 Hz ... 101.3 dB
SVS 20 Hz tune @ 25 Hz ... 105.8 dB
SVS 20 Hz tune @ 31 Hz ... 108.4 dB (this was actually 32 Hz for the SVS)

If you look at all the numbers - they point to the SVS having a stronger driver, while the VTF-3 HO has more output from the port tuning especially with the Turbo installed.



Gee .. is anyone surprised ?

 

[craigsub]

Nathan - I wanted to give people a "feel" for the difference that SVS has when you are above 20 Hz from max output levels in its native 20 Hz tuning. Ed had done just that. This way people can get a feel for thr VTF-3HO in ITS native 22 Hz, two ports open setting and the SVS native 20 Hz, three ports open setting.

 

[steve nn]

I drive my family nuts with this stuff - but I liked the non turbo mostly because there is such a lack of real material below 20 Hz ... plus, if you recall, Mr. Wizard, also known as Craigsub, spent the first 3 days without using the supplied Carpet Grabber.

Thinking back over my tune history and how it evolved from something in the order of 35 Hz ...I'm thinking the longer you leave the turbo engaged, the more you will like it Craig. Your admittedly in a much larger room, but you seam to get great output none the same from a single 12" unit. It still might be a little to much for the single HO or Ultra though.

If I recall correctly it was the Maestro demo that got me to switch on over to the 20 Hz tune with the Ultra/2 and then from there the dual Ultra's and DIY (lower tuning yet while retaining strength up above) subsequently thereafter.

 

[craigsub]

Steve - It will be fun to try out the new discs coming next week with the Turbo installed. I also need to chart that one scene from Batman Begins with the DD-18 and the VTF3-HO. It is when Scarecrow has breathed the "pysche out" powder and Batman speaks to him.

I think it is more visceral than is the machine in Matrix: Revolutions.

 

[zonomorph]

So is it safe to say that the VTF-3HO is the max-output winner in 16Hz mode?

 

[craigsub]

Zono - For now, it is only clear the two subs are going to be very close in output - I think waiting until we get some good spring weather, and placing the subs about 100 feet away from any walls is the best approach before declaring a "winner" ...

Stevenn - The room we are in is a much easier room for a subwoofer than is our upstairs theater.

It is 44 x 14 x 7 feet, with a stairwell taking up some cubes ..

Here is a pic - think all concrete walls, and healthy room gain ..

Here is a pic from last month's X-Sub review - the VTF-3HO is located where the Velo is - with the Ultra immediately to the left. This pic was taken from the listening position, which is the sofa as shown in the first pic.

 

[ssabripo]

When comparing the VTF-3HO w/o Turbo, to the SVS ... let's look at what Ed measured in the SVS for its all ports open, 20 Hz setting ...

Here are the Hsu's numbers:
Hsu Without Turbo @ 20 Hz : 97.41dB
Hsu Without Turbo @ 25 Hz : 104.2dB
Hsu Without Turbo @ 31 Hz : ~106.3dB (actually, it was a total SPL of 109 dB)

Here are the PB12-Plus numbers from Ed:
SVS 20 Hz tune @ 20 Hz ... 101.3 dB
SVS 20 Hz tune @ 25 Hz ... 105.8 dB
SVS 20 Hz tune @ 31 Hz ... 108.4 dB (this was actually 32 Hz for the SVS)

If you look at all the numbers - they point to the SVS having a stronger driver, while the VTF-3 HO has more output from the port tuning especially with the Turbo installed.



Gee .. is anyone surprised ?

excellent point Craig...I was about to bring this up! The earlier numbers posted (from the broken link) were not the apples-to-apples numbers. Nonetheless, seems like both of these buggers are doing an outstanding job for 12 inch drivers!! Very Nice indeed.....

and the winner is............................US, the CONSUMER!!

ps- Check out my progress..wonder how it will stack up to these two 12" flagships..hehe
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7374291&&#post7374291

 

[craigsub]

Sherv - It would probably take two of each to keep up with the twins you are building. Of course, You HAVE been working on that project quite a while. I did the math, estimating what a Ga. Tech engineering grad makes, and your DIY project's time, and calculated that, had you spent all this time at work, you could have purchased one of these ...

But ... you DO get to brag about it ...

Seriously - It does look like a GREAT subwoofer.

 

[steve nn]

Tech engineering grad makes, and your DIY project's time, and calculated that, had you spent all this time at work, you could have purchased one of these ...

lol...The time involved is well spent if a guy is prone to trouble you know.

But ... you DO get to brag about it ...

Ok give me three pics and it's back to the reg programming since it's the weekend. Take the best attributes of the Maestro and the Ultra/HO and put them together.. this is what you wind up with from my listening experience. Admittedly the graph doesn't represent my listening preference (I like a 5dB curve at 30 Hz) at lower MV, but let me tell you I'm never let down what this new DIY rig can do.

Thanks for being a good sport Craig. seriously!

Stevenn - The room we are in is a much easier room for a subwoofer than is our upstairs theater. It is 44 x 14 x 7 feet, with a stairwell taking up some cubes ..

Ok I see..you put it in the less challenged room. 44 X 14!, let me get my calculator..Ok that's a 1/4 of our total house sq ftg with not considering the stairwell. Maybe you ought to think of running the both of them after the Thread is over unless you find one will drag the other down as usually is the case.

Mark> Thank you for your input on my earlier question. After revisiting the review it became apparent, but kudos to you for taking the time.

Nice job Sherv! Now tell me..is it your plan to run both your rigs together or is that up in the air until you flay out your FR response?

 

[craigsub]

Steve ... It appears your project came out great ! I may try the Ultra and a VTF-3HO together sometime next week. Kind of a West Side Story for subs ...