Comparison between the Hsu VTF-3 HO and the SVS PB12-Ultra

[craigsub]

Stevenn ... I knew you love more than infra-sonic bass - but messing with you is too hard to pass up ...

RMK! - As things progress, look for the DD-18 and the EP-500 to be tossed into the mix.

NOW .. for John E. Johnson's review. Mr. Johnson is truly one of the pioneers in the reviewing industry... He has published Secrets for 11 + years now, and has earned the respect of those who really know the man.

His subwoofer reviews are a bit different than what Ed M., and those who are copying his style, use. This does not make his review any less worthy.

JJ takes the time to audition each subwoofer first, then he takes the measurements. His listening tests are excellent, but let's look at his measurements, and see how useful they are.

Three relatively recent review from JJ include the VTF-3HO, the Sunfire Signature, and the Earthquake 15-MKV.

The Sunfire lists for $2200 ... street price of $1800.

The Earthquake lists for $2799 ... street price of $1600.

The VTF-3HO has a permanent, $899 price sans turbo.

All three subs have fairly comparable THD levels at 100 dB. A newer test which JJ has added is a pretty solid indicator of a subwoofer's ability. HE only uses this test on subs with a substantial 20 Hz output - for example, he left this test out of a recent review of the Velo DLS-5000R, as it does not have a solid 20 Hz output.

This test he is using replicates what happens to a subwoofer in the real world. When we are watching a movie with good bass, the bass scenes tend to have a large mixture of different frequencies. JJ's new test places a high level signal consisting of equal parts 20, 31.5, and 50 Hz bass.

He then measures max output for each sub with the three "hitting" simultaneously.

Here are the results for the subs mentioned ...

The Sunfire ...

Maximum output, using a combination of 20 Hz, 31.5 Hz, and 50 Hz, was 110 dB. Putting the subwoofer in a corner would add a few more dB, bringing it in right about at the manufacturer specification of 116 dB.

The Earthquake ...

I was able to achieve a maximum SPL of 120 dB at 1 meter, using a combination of 20 Hz, 31.5 Hz, and 50 Hz sine waves.

The VTF-3HO ...

Using a combination test tone consisting of 20 Hz, 31.5 Hz, and 50 Hz, I was able to get a maximum output SPL of 116 dB without the Turbo, and 115 dB with the Turbo, at 1 meter

Let's compare them ...

Sunfire - 110 dB for $1800

Hsu - 116 dB for $900

Earthquake - 120 dB for $1600

I encourage people to take the time and to visit the full reviews all three subs tested by JJ, and look at the graphs, look at these numbers, and see what you learn.

For now, I can assure you the numbers as posted above are a VERY good indicator of each unit's capabilities.

 

[jmprader]

So Craig, are you in a position to replicate JJ's 3 tone test in your current shootout? I think I know the likely result, but it would be interesting to see the ultimate differential with the SVS and the HO (as well as the others).

 

[Ilkka]

So Craig, are you in a position to replicate JJ's 3 tone test in your current shootout? I think I know the likely result, but it would be interesting to see the ultimate differential with the SVS and the HO (as well as the others).

Just a small warning. That 3 tone test is hardly a good indicator of subwoofer's performance. Especially when we don't know the relative levels of three fundamentals.

Sub A: 80 dB @ 20 Hz, 80 dB @ 31.5 Hz and 120 dB @ 50 Hz

Sub B: 115 dB @ 20 Hz, 115 dB @ 31.5 Hz and 115 dB @ 50 Hz

Both subs would hit 120 dB in this 3 tone test. Which one you would choose?

 

[ssabripo]

Craig....I wish you were close to me so I could toss my AV15 into the mix!! it's done, and BOY...Just WOW!!! not too shabby...here is more info in case you wanna check it out, and perhaps see if you have any ideas on the questions on the bottom:
http://avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7378705&&#post7378705

 

[craigsub]

Craig....I wish you were close to me so I could toss my AV15 into the mix!! it's done, and BOY...Just WOW!!! not too shabby...here is more info in case you wanna check it out, and perhaps see if you have any ideas on the questions on the bottom:
http://avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7378705&&#post7378705

Sherv - that sub looks GREAT. You and Chuck did one tremendous job. The visceral impact you described is very similar to the Maestro(s) we had here.

We were coming off the B4+ from SVS, and this was a B4+ with the Crown K2 and a BFD equing it. The Maestros did exactly what you described in your thread. This tells me you have done, for lack of a better word, a perfect job.

What you are experiencing is darn good in room linearity to pretty close to 10 Hz ... I can get there with the Velo DD-18 now, too.

I would LOVE to have your sub here to test out ... heck, depending on how things pan out over the next 6 months, I may finally bite the bullet, and get my brother to build me a quad 18 inch sealed design...

To those following the info I posted about JJ's review - he only uses that criteria for subwoofers which have a solid 20, 31.5, and 50 Hz output. This is why he left the Velodyne 5000 out of that test.

It is one of the BEST snapshots of a subwoofer's performance on dynamic material you will see.

 

[Ilkka]

To those following the info I posted about JJ's review - he only uses that criteria for subwoofers which have a solid 20, 31.5, and 50 Hz output. This is why he left the Velodyne 5000 out of that test.

Velodyne DSL-5000R hit 100 dB @ 20 Hz @ 20% THD, so that might not even have been the max output.

Velodyne DPS-10 hit 98 dB @ 20 Hz @ 29% THD and was tested using the 3 tone test. It hit 118 dB @ 10" distance. In an anechoic environment that would be around 106 dB @ 1 m, but in-room probably more around 110 dB. Pretty good performance.

It is one of the BEST snapshots of a subwoofer's performance on dynamic material you will see.

Dynamic? With static sine waves...

 

[ssabripo]

Sherv - that sub looks GREAT. You and Chuck did one tremendous job. The visceral impact you described is very similar to the Maestro(s) we had here.

We were coming off the B4+ from SVS, and this was a B4+ with the Crown K2 and a BFD equing it. The Maestros did exactly what you described in your thread. This tells me you have done, for lack of a better word, a perfect job.

What you are experiencing is darn good in room linearity to pretty close to 10 Hz ... I can get there with the Velo DD-18 now, too.

I would LOVE to have your sub here to test out ... heck, depending on how things pan out over the next 6 months, I may finally bite the bullet, and get my brother to build me a quad 18 inch sealed design...
......

What is curious to me is that the Ultra in 16hz should have more "impact" at around the tunning frequency, but on very low subsonic stuff (ie, the 14-17hz output once the submarine hits the wall), the AV15 actually sounded louder and you could "feel" it more... For some reason I thought for sure that the AV would sound louder at its tunning freq (18hz-20hz...somewhere in there, since the final volume and port length varied slightly during build process) but not as much below, yet that's not the case...it actually sounds louder than the ultra down low.

Gaddamit, I'm confused.......

ps- Thanks for the kind words...no, I don't think we did a "perfect" job by no means, but it was pretty darn good for a pair of rookies. BIG HUGE MAMMOTH GIGANTIC kudos to Chuck for all his help and enthusiasm. I would still be working on it (and probably had a couple of snafu's along the way) had it not been for him.

 

[Ilkka]

What is curious to me is that the Ultra in 16hz should have more "impact" at around the tunning frequency, but on very low subsonic stuff (ie, the 14-17hz output once the submarine hits the wall), the AV15 actually sounded louder and you could "feel" it more... For some reason I thought for sure that the AV would sound louder at its tunning freq (18hz-20hz...somewhere in there, since the final volume and port length varied slightly during build process) but not as much below, yet that's not the case...it actually sounds louder than the ultra down low.

Gaddamit, I'm confused.......

Sherv,

What makes you think it's the output in 14-17 Hz range, which makes you "feel" more? I mean have you measured the spectrum of that scene? It is pretty obvious that the AV15 does have much more output above ~16 Hz than the Ultra. It also probably has a quite differently shaped FR curve, I suspect a pretty good boost/room curve at around 20-40 Hz.

 

[craigsub]

What is curious to me is that the Ultra in 16hz should have more "impact" at around the tunning frequency, but on very low subsonic stuff (ie, the 14-17hz output once the submarine hits the wall), the AV15 actually sounded louder and you could "feel" it more... For some reason I thought for sure that the AV would sound louder at its tunning freq (18hz-20hz...somewhere in there, since the final volume and port length varied slightly during build process) but not as much below, yet that's not the case...it actually sounds louder than the ultra down low.

Gaddamit, I'm confused.......

ps- Thanks for the kind words...no, I don't think we did a "perfect" job by no means, but it was pretty darn good for a pair of rookies. BIG HUGE MAMMOTH GIGANTIC kudos to Chuck for all his help and enthusiasm. I would still be working on it (and probably had a couple of snafu's along the way) had it not been for him.

Sherv - We took a lot of measurements with the B4+ and the Maestro - and even when both had the same SPL, the Maestro "felt" as if it was hitting harder. It was clear, whether under blind or sighted conditions.

In fact, this palpable feeling for the bass is the reason I ended up SELLING the twin Maestros - I think you know that story - The gent who got them is such a wonderful guy - I just could not say no.

Anyway, I applaud your new toy, and you are more than entitled to brag.

 

[craigsub]

As promised - Titan AE.

Here are some screenshots of the max SPL each sub could deliver on Titan AE.

SVS PB12-Ultra in 16 Hz tune :

Hsu VTF-3HO without the Turbo installed :

Hsu VTF-3HO with Turbo installed :

Tomorrow, I plan on some realy critical blind listening tests - The new Donald Fagen "Morph the Cat" DVD-A is due, as well as Tool's Aenima and David Gilmour's (Pink Floyd) "On an Island" ...

 

[Legairre]

Craig great thread, I've been lurking ever since you started it and it really does appear that so far these two subs are pretty evenly matched on movies. Sounded like the HO had the edge on music but that was only one disk. It will be interesting to read how both these fair on some more music.

Great job

 

[Geoh]

Craigsub....
Why are you getting more output withOUT the Turbo?
I thought the turbo was suppose to add SPL and frequency tuning into the sub 20hz?
And THD levels are higher with the Turbo installed, correct?

geoh

 

[daman4799]

ssabripo,

You guys did a great job on that sub, looks great. Sounds great too I bet!One of these days I'm going to give DIY a shot.

Later, Daman

 

[craigsub]

GeoH - Look at the graph below 20 Hz, and you will see the Turbo has about 10 dB more output at 15 Hz than the non turbo, at the expense of about 3 dB at 20 Hz.

The non-turbo has a tuning frequency of about 22 Hz - so it is no surprise that the non turbo is more powerful in the 20-25 Hz area.

Subjectively, the Turbo had a much more visceral feel to it in the Ice scenes from Titan AE.

In regards to the distortion - there needs to be more followup on that - stay tuned (no pun intended ... ) ...

 

[ssabripo]

ssabripo,

You guys did a great job on that sub, looks great. Sounds great too I bet!One of these days I'm going to give DIY a shot.

Later, Daman

thank you Daman....it was fun, and now we are enjoying the fruits of our labor. I guess that's why we are all here: to learn, share, and enjoy our hobby of A/V

 

[Ajax]

thank you Daman....it was fun, and now we are enjoying the fruits of our labor. I guess that's why we are all here: to learn, share, and enjoy our hobby of A/V

Well, most of us, anyway. Good stuff Shervin. Have you posted pics of your creation anywhere?

EDIT: Nevermind! I just followed the link in your previous post. DUH!

 

[jmprader]

...I guess that's why we are all here: to learn, share, and enjoy our hobby of A/V

You forget to add much bigger type, bold-face and underlines on that one.

I'm enjoying this polite and attentive thread...big timex2...but looking forward to reading more about your foray into DIY on the other side.

In the meantime, I'll continue to be a cheerleader here...all good stuff.

 

[vinyl]

This thread should be about what the title implies only – that’s why we’ve moved here, no derailment…hopefully.

The DIY thread has a link, be courteous and discuss that project where it already exists...it's a must read in its entirety.

 

[ssabripo]

You forget to add much bigger type, bold-face and underlines on that one.

I'm enjoying this polite and attentive thread...big timex2...but looking forward to reading more about your foray into DIY on the other side.

In the meantime, I'll continue to be a cheerleader here...all good stuff.

Indeed man! Indeed. I gotta say that the last few months over at AVS have really put a lot damper in the spirit of many of us....just too many insults, arguments, cliques, fanboys, and the occasional blabbing of a couple who think they know everything there is to know, etc. You know how it goes. Sufficeth to say that it became a not-so-fun-place I'm sure Craig can attest to it.

This thread indeed is a huge breath of fresh air....enjoying the info and the comradory very much so!

ANyways, back to the HO and Ultra!!

Craig, where are the pics man?!!!! Tic toc, tic toc....

 

[craigsub]

Sherv - I know... I owe pics. My wife was on my case last night - the room in which we are doing the shootout, we currently have the PB12-Ultra, The VTF-3HO, an EP-500, two UFW-12's, the DD-18, Axiom M-80's, ACI Sapphires ... and in the storage area around the corner, Energy Veritas 2.4i's and Rocket 760's ... It looks like an audio showroom.

Why is it that women don't like that look ?

Upstairs, we have construction going on which will be finished in April ... Let's just say she is looking forward to getting the house normal.

HOPEFULLY ... she will have time to take pics tonight ...