Bought new Onkyo TX-NR6050, hope I won't regret

[Mike Up]

While watching a Bluray with DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1 the Receiver displayed the input as DTS-HD MSTR 7.1 ch B.

What does that B at the end mean? I guessing Back, opposed to height or middle speakers but saw no reference in the manual.

Thanks

 

[Mike Up]

Just a heads up for anyone who was wondering why your on-screen volume bar changed from blue to magenta color. When using Dolby Vision RGB, the volume bar changes to magenta. No where in the manual or the internet could I find out why so I tried different things until I found it.

 

[Mike Up]

Also manual is wrong with a HDMI input table taken from the TX-NR700 which says HDR 10+ on all inputs and front HDMI. Don't use that table, it's wrong. This table is in the specs at the end of the manual.

The real table is below limiting our 8K resolution to the lowest possible 8K 30p without DSC. It's a shame why Onkyo can't do their manuals correctly. Hek, they only offer them on their website so no excuses. I thought this receiver could do 8K 60p but only with DSC. Uncompressed it's only 8K 30p. The new Denon AVR-S970 goes up to 8K 60p uncompressed as it doesn't look like it supports DSC.

Yamaha RX-V6a is the same as the Onkyo TX-NR6050 in only going up to 8K 30p without DSC where it can go to 60p.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Makes a lot of sense. Guess with my surround speakers placed at the original Dolby recommended 3' above listener, the virtualizer probably wouldn't work right.


I never liked having the surround speakers at listeners ear height because it would be blaring into the far most seated listener's ears while the listeners seating more center wouldn't hear it as well. The speakers above the listeners heads would sound better for all listeners. Not sure about this 5.1.2 and above formats. Thinking I'll stay with the Tried and True 7.1 format.

I'm guessing that the high end Dipole surround speakers wouldn't even work with Atmos.

I’ve seen you mention “tried and true” 7.1 before. And while it is absolutely great, and solid, imo, some Atmos is better than no Atmos. My current setup is 7.x.4 and I’ve used everything from 5.x all the way up to this.
IME, 5.1.2 is better than 7.1. And 5.1.4 is better than 7.1.2 etc. Point is, I would forgo rear surrounds for a pair of heights/tops and IME it is worth it to lower the surrounds and add tops.
I did this actually. My 7.3 surround tweeters were at about 72” and I decided to add four tops for 7.3.4 and the new(four years ago) tweeter height is 55”(from memory). I have ZERO regrets in going to Atmos from a channel based system, and fwiw, I was completely in love with the former 7.3 channel based system.
As far as hot spotting, it depends on the width of the room. For narrower rooms, dipoles can work very well.
I’ve also never liked my surrounds at ear level, BUT Atmos is different. 7.1 is great.
I’d never go back.

 

[Mike Up]

My problem with having surround side speakers so low is that they blast in the far most seating position listeners ears while the center most seating position listener now gets an obstructed sound path from other listeners in the way. With surround side channel speakers above everyone's heads, the sound isn't blasting in anyone's ears and everyone gets an unobstructed sound path for clean sound.

I originally had my surround and surround back speakers on speaker stands (donated to good will), but when I got married, I had kids and more animals. The speakers didn't stay standing all the time so up high on the walls they went. What a difference, they sounded so much better. Even though Dolby recommended they go up high, I initially was hesitant to scar my walls with holes to mount speakers. After getting married, I found if I wanted my speakers to last, they needed to be on the walls. Now the kids are older and I'm down in the number of animals (unfortunately) but the remaining still ensure the speakers stay on the walls.

Due to furniture now, I couldn't bring the surrounds to ear level but maybe 1.5' above ear level. Still above the head of listeners. However now this leaves 1.5' between back surround height and surround height. Not sure that's enough.

I still have 1' from the top of the surround back speaker to the ceiling but then sound anamolies could happen being it's where the wall meets to the ceiling.

So all the way to the top, I'd have 2.5' (center of speaker to center of speaker) between surround speakers and surround back speakers, but back speaker's sound could be compromised being where the wall meets the ceiling. This is with 8' ceiling.

I wouldn't ever buy a 9.1 receiver as I just don't want that many speakers all over and don't want to waste money on amps that wouldn't be used.

So the issue would then be I'd have to stay with Onkyo as of right now, Denon and Yamaha do not offer a 5.1.2 configuration with rear height channels. You'd have to step up to their 9.1 receivers.

As of right now, I may just keep the 7.1 setup I have. Maybe I'll change my mind but Atmos height speaker use seems too demanding on the room's furnishing layout. Since my listening position is close to the rear wall, dolby enabled rear speakers wouldn't work as they would reflect into center of the room.

 

[Mike Up]

Anyone know why that B is referring in the on-screen input signal info for that DTS-HD MSTR 7.1 B display? That B isn't there when I switch the Bluray to the 5.1 soundtrack.

 

[Trebdp83]

It’s referring to the surround back channels when displaying 7.1B. Some devices trigger the color change of the volume bar while displaying Dolby Vision while others do not do so.

The Onkyo TX-NR6050 can handle 8K/60 Uncompressed BUT will have to resort to color subsampling from 4:4:4 to 4:2:0 as 4:4:4 would exceed the 40Gbps bandwidth limit of the receiver and DSC would need to be supported by the device, receiver and TV to compress the signal into the bandwidth limit. This is a complete non issue for TV and movie watching and currently only an issue for some gaming in 4K HDR @120Hz depending on all the the devices and order of connections in their systems.

If you don’t mind the colorful and sometimes downright offensive language I use in some of my own threads, you can read about the Onkyo TX-NR6050, the Yamaha RX-V6A, the Denon S760H and bandwidth limitations in a couple of threads. The Yamaha thread is lengthy and the comparisons to the other receivers is closer to the end.

Yamaha RX-V6A/TSR-700 views?

It is frustrating for sure. Yamaha manuals leave more out than they put in. I’ve been going back and forth with them for a long time. They know these new models have all kinds of issues and they have asked me as many questions as I've asked them about this finicky little f#%ker. I may tinker...

forums.audioholics.com

F#%kin' Bandwidth and Bit Limitations!

No, I haven't had any coffee, yet. So, this is gonna' get ugly. Let me just start with a big F#%K you to everybody in the home entertainment industry. Perhaps a bit of background is needed here. Regulars in this joint aren't unfamiliar with my obnoxious rants. Some are amused by them while other...

forums.audioholics.com

 

[Trebdp83]

While the Onkyo TX-NR6050 offers many placement options for height speakers in a 5.1.2 configuration, only one option is considered optimal by Dolby and all of the others would compromise object placement. Everybody works with what they’ve got available to them. I’ve got room for 5.1 with four floor standers and two subs and the ceiling and walls are off limits. So, I use height virtualization.

5.1.2 Overhead Speakers

Use this step-by-step guide to optimize your home theater with 5.1.2 overhead speakers enabled with Dolby Atmos. Experience your entertainment in premium Dolby sound.

www.dolby.com

 

[Mike Up]

While the Onkyo TX-NR6050 offers many placement options for height speakers in a 5.1.2 configuration, only one option is considered optimal by Dolby and all of the others would compromise object placement. Everybody works with what they’ve got available to them. I’ve got room for 5.1 with four floor standers and two subs and the ceiling and walls are off limits. So, I use height virtualization.

5.1.2 Overhead Speakers

Use this step-by-step guide to optimize your home theater with 5.1.2 overhead speakers enabled with Dolby Atmos. Experience your entertainment in premium Dolby sound.

www.dolby.com

View attachment 58289

Thanks for the information on what the "B" was! The volume bar has changed color with all my Dolby Vision devices, Sony X700 UHD Bluray player, Fire TV Stick 4K Max and Roku Stick 4K. Glad to hear this can do 8K 60p as the manual for the 6100 says it can't without DSC. Manual for 6050 is a joke with 7100 and 6100 stuff mixed together.

I did find some Dolby information on the web and it's always Top Ceiling speakers or Dolby Enabled speaker, never mention height speakers. So I'm guessing height speakers are not Dolby's favorite and a compromise made by receiver makers. Denon offers only rear dolby enabled speaker placement on it's AVR-S970h receiver.

Thanks again.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I can definitely see why you went the way you did. I can’t remember your room dims but I would suspect it’s pretty narrow, and honestly a lot of guys are installing their sides a foot-ish above seated ear too, for the same reasons you said about clearing multiple viewers. I did this as mentioned above, but my ceiling height is 10’ so I was able to keep the separation. In the end you have to do what works for you and your home. All I can say, Is that Atmos has been a great upgrade for me, and if you do get to try it, I think you’ll agree.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Thanks for the information on what the "B" was! The volume bar has changed color with all my Dolby Vision devices, Sony X700 UHD Bluray player, Fire TV Stick 4K Max and Roku Stick 4K. Glad to hear this can do 8K 60p as the manual for the 6100 says it can't without DSC. Manual for 6050 is a joke with 7100 and 6100 stuff mixed together.

I did find some Dolby information on the web and it's always Top Ceiling speakers or Dolby Enabled speaker, never mention height speakers. So I'm guessing height speakers are not Dolby's favorite and a compromise made by receiver makers. Denon offers only rear dolby enabled speaker placement on it's AVR-S970h receiver.

Thanks again.

Well heights are definitely on the recommended list. But Atmos is all
About angle. So if you’re trying for 45° fore and aft the MLP, if your ceiling and wall happen to meet at 45° your tin luck for heights. If the room is longer, and 45° puts the speakers half way between the MLP and walls, then tops is what you’d choose. Honestly, I think for a .2 installation, side heights can be much more practical and easier to do. This is actually true in a .4 height install too. It’s less invasive, and you can experiment with placement options. Like this…

 

[Trebdp83]

No, Dolby doesn’t use the “height” or “presence” speaker terminology though both predate Atmos. “Dolby Enabled” speaker confuses some because they should have just called it an upfiring Atmos module.

I’m sure once AC-4 enters the market Dolby will tinker further with Atmos and suggested speakers and placements. The day will come when some will trip over “dolby enabled floor modules.”

While some Denons allow for a rear atmos speaker, I seem to remember them not allowing the assignment with seven speakers at ear level as it would throw off object placement and only worked when using a 5.1.4 configuration. The 7.1.2 setup would be limited to front or middle assignments.

If you look closely at the TX-NR6050 manual, it shows that it supports 8K/60p 4:2:0 Uncompressed, though at 10 bit color. It requires DSC for 8K/60p 4:2:0 12 bit and 4:4:4 10 or 12 bit because they exceed the 40Gbps bandwidth limit of the Onkyo. While some new TVs support 48Gbps and DSC, many do not do so and support 40Gbps with no DSC support. Some receivers are limited to 24Gbps on all ports but do support DSC. But, unless all of the devices support DSC, Uncompressed signals are limited to the device with the lowest bandwidth cap.

I do not use Dolby Vision these days. I’ve tweaked my TV and devices to my liking using HDR10 for everything. The only time I hit the Uncompressed 40Gbps bandwidth ceiling of the XBOX Series S, the Onkyo TX-NR6050 and the LG C1 TV is when I game in 4K HDR10 RGB 4:4:4 @120Hz.

 

[Mike Up]

Your top picture page 160 is not for the TX-NR6050 but put in the manual none the less. It's not even in the TX-NR6100 manual. It was taken from the TX-NR7100 manual, the reason why it says HDMI (front) as that model has a front HDMI where the 6050 and 6100 do not. The table to use is on page 161 which is the same as the 6100 on page 171 of it's manual.

Your top picture table on page 160 is taken from the 7100's table on page 185 of it's manual.

Sorry, but unfortunately this model is stuck at 8K,24/25/30 Hz, andYCbCr4:2:0 8/10/12 bit . Anything higher requires DSC.

Page 161 of the TX-NR6050 manual

The Yamaha RX-V6a has the exact same resolutions for uncompressed and DSC. Only the Denon seems to better with uncompressed 8K and 4K 120p but then they had all kinds of HDMI issues of their own.

If you want uncompressed 8K 60p, you have to go up to the TX-NR7100 for $1300. When I have an 8K 60p TV in the future, hopefully it will have DSC by then. If not, I'll be buying another cheap HT Receiver in the future that can handle 8K 60P uncompressed. By then they'll likely be new HDR formats that will require a new receiver or have devices go straight to TV.

We appear to only have the HDMI 2.1 24 Gbps HDMI connectors on HDMI 1, 2, and 3, and HDMI 2.0 18 Gbps connectors on HDMI 4, 5, and 6.

 

[Trebdp83]

It is in fact from my TX-NR6050 manual. Again, it has many things wrong with it as does the chart you have included in your post as it shows the 6050 needing DSC to pass a 4K HDR10 RGB 4:4:4 @120Hz. This is not the case. The TX-NR5100 and TX-NR6050 resolution support charts are actually mismatched and need to be swapped. The limitations in the chart you posted apply to the 24Gbps capped 5100 and not the 6050.

The 6050 manual also excludes information about 8K Enhanced mode on page 100. Using 8K Standard mode results in color subsampling when gaming in 4K HDR @120Hz. Again, all of this is a non issue when watching UHD discs or streaming content in 4K HDR @24Hz. The 6050 manual needs to be scrapped and rewritten for accuracy. Its three 40Gbps ports are every bit as capable as those in the TX-NR6100 and TX-NR7100.

 

[Mike Up]

Onkyo should be ashamed of themselves as all of their literature is wrong! How can anyone know how to setup their receiver when manual is wrong.

On my unit, HDR10+ will not pass on HDMI inputs 4, 5, and 6 so they are HDMI 2.0 connectors and not 2.1 connectors as 1, 2, and 3 are.

 

[Mike Up]

It is in fact from my TX-NR6050 manual. Again, it has many things wrong with it as does the chart you have included in your post as it shows the 6050 needing DSC to pass a 4K HDR10 RGB 4:4:4 @120Hz. This is not the case. The TX-NR5100 and TX-NR6050 resolution support charts are actually mismatched and need to be swapped. The limitations in the chart you posted apply to the 24Gbps capped 5100 and not the 6050.

The 6050 manual also excludes information about 8K Enhanced mode on page 100. Using 8K Standard mode results in color subsampling when gaming in 4K HDR @120Hz. Again, all of this is a non issue when watching UHD discs or streaming content in 4K HDR @24Hz. The 6050 manual needs to be scrapped and rewritten for accuracy. Its three 40Gbps ports are every bit as capable as those in the TX-NR6100 and TX-NR7100.

Yes, I see I have the option of 8K Enhanced on my 6050. Onkyo needs to re-print all their new receiver line manuals. They are all wrong apparently.

 

[Mike Up]

I sent an email to Onkyo about their terrible manuals and how I am clueless on their receiver's compatibility and features when so much is inaccurate in the manual.

 

[Trebdp83]

I agree, and I thought Yamaha manuals were bad. To be clear, HDR10+ is not HDMI 2.1 dependent and many HDMI 2.0 devices make use of it.

 

[Mike Up]

I agree, and I thought Yamaha manuals were bad. To be clear, HDR10+ is not HDMI 2.1 dependent and many HDMI 2.0 devices make use of it.

Really, everything I read states that HDMI 2.1 is needed to pass it. To the point that even TVs that only have HDMI 2.0 could only display HDR10+ through their native apps.

That's interesting

 

[Trebdp83]

My 2017 Samsung TV can display HDR10+ from an external device. Much of what is possible and impossible with different devices these days has far more to do with licensing deals than hardware capabilities. Yes, HDR10+ is royalty free but that doesn’t tell the whole story.