Having trouble keeping SW on whilst playing LP's

[Squishman]

So I went into the settings in the RZ50 for the LFE output. What is louder, 0db, -10db, -20db or the infinity symbol? I know that is a fairly lame question, but I don't know! I would like my sub to stay on, and then adjust it down at the SW.

 

[TLS Guy]

So I went into the settings in the RZ50 for the LFE output. What is louder, 0db, -10db, -20db or the infinity symbol? I know that is a fairly lame question, but I don't know! I would like my sub to stay on, and then adjust it down at the SW.

- is less! Usually you want to set the sub level half way, and then set the receiver to the required level of bass. It could be that you receiver has an infrasonic filter on the phono input, to stop the common bass resonance that causes cones to flap wildly. Playing discs is far more complex than people think, as there is a sweet spot between cartridge compliance and the actual mass of the arm. There is an inverse relationship between cartridge compliance and arm mass. I mean the actual arm mass and NOT the tracking force. This is at the bottom of this issue of cone flap when playing LPs. In addition arms should be damped, but few are. Mine are damped and cartridge compliance matches arm mass.

 

[ryanosaur]

Kudos for use of "whilst!"


to your question, 0dB will be louder than -10, etc...

The key component in this is the signal going to the Sub. Auto-On or Music-Sense features rely on a certain amount of voltage entering the Sub through it's input(s). How sensitive any given Sub is to this signal is not standardized.

One trick, if your Sub has two inputs like an LFE and a second RCA in is that you can split you signal Sub Out cable with a Y and plug both into the Sub... This may increase the signal your Sub sees enough to keep the Sub on.
Also, turning up the volume will give the Sub enough to keep it on. *blushes

 

[lovinthehd]

Vinyl records don't have an LFE channel so adjusting in the avr wouldn't be the way to go particularly. What crossover are you using? Maybe turning gain down on the sub and increasing sub pre-out level might help with the auto on circuit trigger, or just leave the sub in an on position altogether.

 

[Squishman]

- is less! Usually you want to set the sub level half way, and then set the receiver to the required level of bass. It could be that you receiver has an infrasonic filter on the phono input, to stop the common bass resonance that causes cones to flap wildly. Playing discs is far more complex than people think, as there is a sweet spot between cartridge compliance and the actual mass of the arm. There is an inverse relationship between cartridge compliance and arm mass. I mean the actual arm mass and NOT the tracking force. This is at the bottom of this issue of cone flap when playing LPs. In addition arms should be damped, but few are. Mine are damped and cartridge compliance matches arm mass.

I don't know if what you are describing is something I can adjust. I think I doubt if I can. My TT is an OK one, but it was only $400 purchased new. I did upgrade the stylus, so maybe it'd be only $500 now purchased new.

 

[Squishman]

Kudos for use of "whilst!"


to your question, 0dB will be louder than -10, etc...

The key component in this is the signal going to the Sub. Auto-On or Music-Sense features rely on a certain amount of voltage entering the Sub through it's input(s). How sensitive any given Sub is to this signal is not standardized.

One trick, if your Sub has two inputs like an LFE and a second RCA in is that you can split you signal Sub Out cable with a Y and plug both into the Sub... This may increase the signal your Sub sees enough to keep the Sub on.
Also, turning up the volume will give the Sub enough to keep it on. *blushes

I do have a high-end splitter in a box of cables. I'll try that! Thx!
Sometimes I crank it up just to trigger the sub. But after a while it goes off again, because I didn't really want it that loud.

 

[TLS Guy]

I don't know if what you are describing is something I can adjust. I think I doubt if I can. My TT is an OK one, but it was only $400 purchased new. I did upgrade the stylus, so maybe it'd be only $500 now purchased new.

You can, turn down the sub volume and increase the output from the receiver. If your receiver has an infrasonic filter on the phono input you may be out of luck. I think this is quite common, as the power draw from this problem can push less than stellar amps to fail. So it could be there is a steep roll off below 40 Hz on your phono input. This used to be a common practice. I have no idea how common it is now.

 

[Squishman]

Vinyl records don't have an LFE channel so adjusting in the avr wouldn't be the way to go particularly. What crossover are you using? Maybe turning gain down on the sub and increasing sub pre-out level might help with the auto on circuit trigger, or just leave the sub in an on position altogether.

I don't think I ever set the xover on the RZ50 for that. Didn't know there was a setting. I imagine if I turned it on, I'd forget to turn it off once in a while. I wouldn't want that.

 

[lovinthehd]

I don't think I ever set the xover on the RZ50 for that. Didn't know there was a setting. I imagine if I turned it on, I'd forget to turn it off once in a while. I wouldn't want that.

You don't use a crossover? You use the double bass setting?

 

[TLS Guy]

I don't think I ever set the xover on the RZ50 for that. Didn't know there was a setting. I imagine if I turned it on, I'd forget to turn it off once in a while. I wouldn't want that.

In that case you have not set up your receiver properly, and no wonder you have problems. You need to go to your set up menu, and tell your receiver which speakers you have, including subs. Now set up the microphone that came with you receiver, and go though the speaker distance program and then go though the speaker level program, and your correct levels will be set. AVRs are NOT plug and play. Not by a long shot. You have work to do!

 

[Squishman]

In that case you have not set up your receiver properly, and no wonder you have problems. You need to go to your set up menu, and tell your receiver which speakers you have, including subs. Now set up the microphone that came with you receiver, and go though the speaker distance program and then go though the speaker level program, and your correct levels will be set. AVRs are NOT plug and play. Not by a long shot. You have work to do!

I did calibrate using the mic. I did not just fall off the turnip truck Doc. You cannot just plug and play these amps anyway without set-up (speaker config, inputs, speaker xovers, etc). If there is a freq setting for the LFE, I may have missed that. I am going to try the splitter mentioned by Ryanosour.

 

[Squishman]

You don't use a crossover? You use the double bass setting?

Don't know what "double bass setting" is.

 

[Squishman]

Kudos for use of "whilst!"


to your question, 0dB will be louder than -10, etc...

The key component in this is the signal going to the Sub. Auto-On or Music-Sense features rely on a certain amount of voltage entering the Sub through it's input(s). How sensitive any given Sub is to this signal is not standardized.

One trick, if your Sub has two inputs like an LFE and a second RCA in is that you can split you signal Sub Out cable with a Y and plug both into the Sub... This may increase the signal your Sub sees enough to keep the Sub on.
Also, turning up the volume will give the Sub enough to keep it on. *blushes

I understand that LFE bypasses the SW's xover control (pretty sure I have that right). So if 0 db doesn't fix it and I go with a Y connector, what shall I set my SW's xover at to start with?

 

[lovinthehd]

Don't know what "double bass setting" is.

Double bass is a setting for speakers to run full range and still send a signal to the sub, check your manual. So do you set a crossover (and set speakers to use a crossover rather than full range) to enable bass management for your vinyl source? Just trying to determine what signal you're providing the sub....

 

[Eppie]

Not sure about the Onkyo but most AVRs have separate LEF and subwoofer crossover settings. It's the sub crossover setting you need to check and it is typically set at 80Hz. Raising it 100Hz might help keep the sub turned on but you may get some bass localization with higher settings. If you increase the subwoofer level setting (say from -10dB to -5dB or 0dB) then you can adjust the sub volume back down with it's level control.

The LFE setting is for movie effects only and should not affect phono playback as there is no LFE content. The LFE setting is usually set to 120Hz (max) so that none of the LFE content gets filtered out.

 

[ryanosaur]

I understand that LFE bypasses the SW's xover control (pretty sure I have that right). So if 0 db doesn't fix it and I go with a Y connector, what shall I set my SW's xover at to start with?

As others have indicated... I would start with Sub XO at 80. LFE crossover should be 120 (usually a separate setting).
If you are changing the connections or some other setting, you may want to redo your room correction. That is up to you.
Just adding the Y should not really upset anything.

And as a picture is worth 1000 words... and just to make certain there is no confusion, this is what I'm talking about doing:

 

[ryanosaur]

If you increase the subwoofer level setting (say from -10dB to -5dB or 0dB) then you can adjust the sub volume back down with it's level control.

Just for clarity, I was confused about this part...
Are you suggesting turning up the Gain on the Plate Amp?
Perhaps I misunderstand something, but if not, that won't help the auto feature stay on. Adjusting Sub Gain on the Plate Amp will make it play louder, but if he turns down the output through Trim in the AVR, that will further attenuate the signal being sent to the Sub making it more difficult to trigger and maintain the Auto-On.
Again, if I'm misunderstanding you, please clarify.

 

[Squishman]

Just for clarity, I was confused about this part...
Are you suggesting turning up the Gain on the Plate Amp?
Perhaps I misunderstand something, but if not, that won't help the auto feature stay on. Adjusting Sub Gain on the Plate Amp will make it play louder, but if he turns down the output through Trim in the AVR, that will further attenuate the signal being sent to the Sub making it more difficult to trigger and maintain the Auto-On.
Again, if I'm misunderstanding you, please clarify.

No need for the hook up photo, but thx. My original post was about increasing the LFE output from the AVR, then turning the gain down on the amp plate as needed.

 

[ryanosaur]

No need for the hook up photo, but thx. My original post was about increasing the LFE output from the AVR, then turning the gain down on the amp plate as needed.

Yes, increasing Sub Trim in the AVR then turning it back down via Gain on the Plate Amp should help. Not knowing what your Trim levels are, my only caution is always to avoid setting positive trim levels in the AVR.

 

[TLS Guy]

I did calibrate using the mic. I did not just fall off the turnip truck Doc. You cannot just plug and play these amps anyway without set-up (speaker config, inputs, speaker xovers, etc). If there is a freq setting for the LFE, I may have missed that. I am going to try the splitter mentioned by Ryanosour.

If you did not set a crossover frequency, then your set up is not complete. What is your crossover frequency to the sub? Where is the volume on the plate sub amp set? Is the crossover set to LFE or LFE + Main?