Where are the BIG center channels?

ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Thanks! It took me quite a while to decide on which finish I wanted. It was a tougher choice than the actual speakers themselves! :D
You did Silver-Gray with the Burst on Curly Maple, ya?
 
NINaudio

NINaudio

Audioholic Samurai
The Salks replaced these Boston Acoustics speakers that I had for years:

 
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Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
We did a Smoky Silver-Gray finish with black Burst on Curly Maple. A bit darker than their "standard" Silver-Gray finish.
Guys this sounds like some kind of really delicious maple syrup or something your making me really really hungry right now
 
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Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
In the "for what it's worth" department, I have an in-wall speaker above the TV in one of my systems. I angled the speaker so it points down directly at the viewing position (the sofa in my living room). Initially I was concerned that the location above the TV would result in a perception that the sound was coming from above the TV. However, this has not been an issue at all. It is almost impossible (at least for me) to discern that the source of the sound is actually above the TV, even though I know it is.

Having said that, although the positioning of the center channel has not been an issue, it's a very modest system with Aperion in-wall FCL speakers so the sound is not exceptional due to the limitations of these speakers. I don't know of any commercially available in-wall speakers that could be mounted above a TV and avoid lobing issues, etc. (they might exist, I just don't know of any). Thus, I doubt that this type of center setup is a "solution" if you're looking to match large LR towers.

At the risk of derailing this thread, although the conventional wisdom that identical LCR speakers are optimum makes sense as a general matter, I find myself wondering if it really makes as much difference if the LR speakers are large towers. In other words, given that the direction of bass frequency sources is difficult to perceive, is there really enough bass content in the center channel to make it worthwhile to match the bass response of large towers in a center channel? I have never tried identical LCR towers, so I don't know how much difference it actually makes. This is more or less a question for the guys who do have large LCR towers?
Having identical LCR towers is like night and day from when I was just using a center and 2 bookshelves or a center and 2 towers

The panning from left to right

The great Soundstage and imaging I get from literally any seat I sit at even off axis by quiet a ways

The dynamics

And most importantly VOCALS are so clear and accurate. It's the only way I've come close with commercial equipment to achieving what TLS Guy and some of our other DIY members can build on there own .

Honestly I can't imagine going back. But I do get why members can't space issues, keeping the wife happy and etc etc. The bottom line is we all have to work with what we have.

Speaking of a massive center channel Erin's audio corner is reviewing a beast a monster of a center channel. I'll see if I can post the link
 
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F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
Your info is inexact. Whether it is for reproducing concerts or films, the center speaker frequently has to handle more power than the front left and right speakers. For this reason, three identical speakers at the front are ideal.

Surround speakers don't receive much power, only a few watts on the average in a typical home system.
I didn't say anything about power requirements, only the reason for having center channel speakers smaller. Properly mastered video doesn't require the center channel speakers to have large woofers. Having a full range speaker in the center channel sounds to me like audiophile nonsense but you are welcome to configure your system as you prefer. I will do the same. I appreciate the response.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
You have my sympathy. Centers are an absolute nightmare, in terms of design, aesthetics, installation and function.

Honestly I don't think there is a commercial sub that satisfies all of the above.

First challenge:- Designing a speaker with outstanding high quality, intelligible speech through out the room, and having enough spl. to match or exceed the left and right speakers. It must also be an exemplary speaker with uniform FR on and off axis.

Aesthetics: - It must be visually appealing as it is always in sight.

Installation challenge. Making something not awkward, and with safe installation. With large screens the speaker gets to low, or the screen too high making neat above screen installation the preferred option, unless you can use the acoustically transparent screen option.

So horizontal MTM fails due to very poor dispersion off axis, and enhanced floor reflections due excess dispersion in the vertical plane which reduces speech intelligibility.

The speaker was be as coherent as possible to have good speech clarity.

Options are for three ways with vertical tweeter mid. The problem this does lead to a speaker that is too tall to be ideal if placed above or over a TV. This makes the poor horizontal MTM approach the more prevalent design, in addition to cost.

This is where function and aesthetics get into harmony. The optimal solution I am certain is a coaxial design or a good full ranger. I don't know of a good driver that is full range with enough power handling for most applications. However for smaller room, especially apartments they are around, and I did it successfully at our the condo we had.

For a neat situation an in wall, or better still ,a through wall design is optimal. I have done both. It is the center that with what is available currently ONLY the DIY home builder can satisfy the criteria I have set out above. If you are able building your center will allow you to get things really correct.

The optimal solution is a coaxial center.

My final solution, was to go for an in wall design. This is preferable to in wall which is second best. The reason is that it significantly reduces the troublesome flat wall large baffle problems

I built my design around this driver. This driver is ideal for TL, but models well in ported and sealed solutions.



This is a potent driver that can handle 200 watts continuous power. A SEAS crossover has subsequently become available.



Now I did have a tweeter fail, and had to repair a driver, so I redesigned the high pass crossover to third order. I have had no trouble now in years of use, and I have powered it hard.

Now I used two of these drivers, as with through wall baffle step compensation is required. Mine is active and variable to optimize it, but it could easily be passive. However the bi-amp design significantly increases spl.

The other issue, is that with coaxial speaker designs tend to have cancelling reflections from the cone. I was able to design and build a passive equalizing network utilizing the tweeter in the BSC fill driver. I would be happy to share the design with any of you. So the design is an unusual 2.5.5 way.

<snip>

In summary, I am yet to hear a better center speaker than this one, especially in terms of clear, natural speech, excellent music quality and even coverage of the listening area of the room.

I will certainly be happy to assist any member that want to build a center along these lines. I think this has been the most difficult design I have undertaken. Although the right and left are more complex their design was easier and they were dead right from the start. This center was more problematic in its development. I well understand why many centers fall well short of the mark, on multiple counts. Center speakers are just very difficult to design properly.
I could have sworn that the price for the coax driver yesterday was $250, but today it came up at $195 per speaker and $72 for the crossover. That's a great price for what you have accomplished with that speaker. Does the design require one crossover per driver?

I would be happy to receive the design for that centre. (Google Sketchup file would be great if available.) I don't currently have a centre channel in the upstairs system but something along those lines could be a good option as I was considering an in-wall or on-wall centre for that setup. Could that speaker be installed in-wall or does it have to be mounted on-wall to properly account for wall reflections?
 
M

mtrot

Senior Audioholic
I don't know about any measurements, but this one is pretty large, as well. Legacy Audio Marquis XD.

1647443238547.png
 
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Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
I don't know about any measurements, but this one is pretty large, as well. Legacy Audio Marquis XD.

View attachment 54609
I love Legacy just out of my budget! That is a monster I think those are 2 12 inch woofers and that's a 7.5 inch midrange combined with a pretty robust AMT

In my opinion that's the way you do it no replacement for displacement! :D
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I could have sworn that the price for the coax driver yesterday was $250, but today it came up at $195 per speaker and $72 for the crossover. That's a great price for what you have accomplished with that speaker. Does the design require one crossover per driver?

I would be happy to receive the design for that centre. (Google Sketchup file would be great if available.) I don't currently have a centre channel in the upstairs system but something along those lines could be a good option as I was considering an in-wall or on-wall centre for that setup. Could that speaker be installed in-wall or does it have to be mounted on-wall to properly account for wall reflections?
Sorry for the tardy reply, but I was looking after three of the grandchildren.

Yes, so I have plans for that center, but I need to look for them. I have not got them out since the move from Benedict.
However, I now have George's TL program. When I designed that TL, I had to do the calculations the old fashioned way. I did use his mathematical model. Now if need be I can redesign it quickly.

Now I had to use a third order high pass to the main tweeter, as I had a VC problem on one tweeter. No trouble since.

The other issue is that the bass section of the fill driver, is active, and driven via another amp fed from a modified Shure SR 106 crossover. So this allows the BSC to be variable.

I do have the high pass crossover to the upper tweeter on file. So I can send you all the info you need. If you want to make the BSC active, I do have a number of SR 106 crossover, and I could modify one for you. Otherwise I will have to design a passive network, but that could not be variable.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Having identical LCR towers is like night and day from when I was just using a center and 2 bookshelves or a center and 2 towers

The panning from left to right

The great Soundstage and imaging I get from literally any seat I sit at even off axis by quiet a ways

The dynamics

And most importantly VOCALS are so clear and accurate. It's the only way I've come close with commercial equipment to achieving what TLS Guy and some of our other DIY members can build on there own .

Honestly I can't imagine going back. But I do get why members can't space issues, keeping the wife happy and etc etc. The bottom line is we all have to work with what we have.

Speaking of a massive center channel Erin's audio corner is reviewing a beast a monster of a center channel. I'll see if I can post the link
Interesting. It's always good to get some real world feedback.

One of these days I need to build a dedicated home theater room so I don't have to make so many compromises.

I think Gene needs to upgrade his center ( ;))

1647463129076.png


 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
Sorry for the tardy reply, but I was looking after three of the grandchildren.

Yes, so I have plans for that center, but I need to look for them. I have not got them out since the move from Benedict.
However, I now have George's TL program. When I designed that TL, I had to do the calculations the old fashioned way. I did use his mathematical model. Now if need be I can redesign it quickly.

Now I had to use a third order high pass to the main tweeter, as I had a VC problem on one tweeter. No trouble since.

The other issue is that the bass section of the fill driver, is active, and driven via another amp fed from a modified Shure SR 106 crossover. So this allows the BSC to be variable.

I do have the high pass crossover to the upper tweeter on file. So I can send you all the info you need. If you want to make the BSC active, I do have a number of SR 106 crossover, and I could modify one for you. Otherwise I will have to design a passive network, but that could not be variable.
Much appreciated Doc. There is no rush on this. I have to finish some cabinet work in the recroom first. 2 drawers built last weekend but six more to go.

I will likely be moving my Panasonic plasma and Denon AVR upstairs and upgrading the recroom system as the TV & AVR are 10 years old now, but they have been a rock solid performers. No pre-amp outs, though, so I will likely need a passive crossover. At least this room is rectangular with 8 foot ceilings so I won't have any of the nasty room boundary issues that I have downstairs. (The recroom probably has the worst acoustics in the house :) but it's all that I have to work with.) Need to design some back boxes for the in-walls as well. I'm hoping Paradigm can provide the proper dimensions.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
I bet. That poor TV stand is being asked to do a lot.

What speakers are those?
Those are Revel with the beryllium tweeters if I'm not mistaken helluva good set of speakers endgame speakers for most for sure
 
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