Where are the BIG center channels?

MalVeauX

MalVeauX

Senior Audioholic
Hrm,

What's a good resource or way to know the on axis dispersion as a cone from a vertical speaker (such as a tower) versus a horizontal? Basically wondering what's the ideal distance and seating arrangement for a vertical center speaker so that everyone in the seating has as close to on axis response as possible. And would like to see if the cone from a horizontal speaker is the same or wider, just with lobbing.

Very best,
 
M

mj30250

Audioholic Intern
The TV is also not on the stand, it's wall-mounted. It is amusing though that the TV and center channel weigh nearly the same.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Hrm,

What's a good resource or way to know the on axis dispersion as a cone from a vertical speaker (such as a tower) versus a horizontal? Basically wondering what's the ideal distance and seating arrangement for a vertical center speaker so that everyone in the seating has as close to on axis response as possible. And would like to see if the cone from a horizontal speaker is the same or wider, just with lobbing.

Very best,
You will get much better directivity characteristics from a good vertical Speaker rather than a horizontal Speaker. Even that last one posted, the Revel, with 4 Woofers on the horizontal plane, will produce lobing that will degrade the off axis performance.
Put four Woofers, a Mid and a Tweet in a vertical alignment and you will have good dispersion all the way out until the Tweet starts Beaming.
Erin's video on Center Channels was really good; well done.
Unless forced into the compromise, I will never again do a horizontal alignment. This includes the BMR in horizontal usage... while there are no repeated Drivers creating a lobing effect, you do have greater baffle diffraction issues. To be fair, this diffraction may not be audible, but by best practices should be avoided if possible.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
The TV is also not on the stand, it's wall-mounted. It is amusing though that the TV and center channel weigh nearly the same.
In an ideal world, getting the Stand and the Gear off the front wall, and putting the Center Speaker on a dedicated Speaker stand would be nice. :)

Is is just optical illusion that the AVR is not actually fully on the shelf? :eek:

;)
 
M

mj30250

Audioholic Intern
There's some slight overhang, but the picture makes it look much more pronounced than it is. The feet are all on the shelf.

Also, while I agree that matched, vertically-aligned centers are ideal, I don't think this particular center suffers from the typical issues. That's likely (at least partially) courtesy of the low crossover from the midrange to the woofers. The horizontal dispersion is actually wider than the towers.

 
Last edited:
MalVeauX

MalVeauX

Senior Audioholic
Thanks,

I currently have identical front stages, all three are towers. I was just wondering that given a larger room, what sort of cone the center tower (vertical) makes in terms of knowing ideal distance to seating and how wide seating can go while being on axis.

Very best,
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
There's some slight overhang, but the picture makes it look much more pronounced than it is. The feet are all on the shelf.

Also, while I agree that matched, vertically-aligned centers are ideal, I don't think this particular center suffers from the typical issues. That's likely (at least partially) courtesy of the low crossover from the midrange to the woofers. The horizontal dispersion is actually wider than the towers.

That's an impressive design if it's delivering that! Kudos.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Thanks,

I currently have identical front stages, all three are towers. I was just wondering that given a larger room, what sort of cone the center tower (vertical) makes in terms of knowing ideal distance to seating and how wide seating can go while being on axis.

Very best,
It depends, always, on your Speakers. My gear is pretty much ultra-wide dispersion; wherever you go in the room is pretty much "On-Axis."
If you have halfway decent directivity on your Speakers, you are probably safe ±30º. That covers a very large swath of real estate. Most Centers cannot do that.
It certainly looks like that Revel above can. ;)

As always with this conversation it comes down to several factors:
Budget, how big your seating area is, how much space you can give to the Speaker Vertical and Horizontal...
Possibly some other aspects I'm not thinking about...

;)
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
My gear is pretty much ultra-wide dispersion; wherever you go in the room is pretty much "On-Axis."
Same here. Pretty much anywhere in my living room is on-axis. That's part of what makes those tweeters so special.
 
MalVeauX

MalVeauX

Senior Audioholic
Hrm,

So a 30 degree triangle (for simplicity) from the vertical center would be a safe bet without measurements? So if the seating position(s) were starting at 8 feet from this speaker, the max width of the seating area 8 feet away would need to be around 4.14 feet wide or it becomes off-axis, if that's right? So of course, sitting farther away increases max width of being on-axis, but of course, you run into the issue of being in the middle of the room (in a rectangle, bad) or at the back of a room. 12 feet seating from this same vertical center speaker calcs that a 30 degree angle from that speaker at 12 feet will allow up to 6 feet width for being on-axis. So looks like I need to aim towards that 12~14 feet range.

Very best,
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Hrm,

So a 30 degree triangle (for simplicity) from the vertical center would be a safe bet without measurements? So if the seating position(s) were starting at 8 feet from this speaker, the max width of the seating area 8 feet away would need to be around 4.14 feet wide or it becomes off-axis, if that's right? So of course, sitting farther away increases max width of being on-axis, but of course, you run into the issue of being in the middle of the room (in a rectangle, bad) or at the back of a room. 12 feet seating from this same vertical center speaker calcs that a 30 degree angle from that speaker at 12 feet will allow up to 6 feet width for being on-axis. So looks like I need to aim towards that 12~14 feet range.

Very best,
This is all in the "planning for future" category, or are you trying to address something taking place now?

:)
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
8 feet away would need to be around 4.14 feet wide
To each side of directly on-axis...
for simplicity, 8' away from the center Speaker, would give you ~9' total seating width considering a ±30 horizontal directivity. (My math came to 4.6'left and right.)

Confirming your 12' disctance, you would have just a hair under 14' seating width.
 
MalVeauX

MalVeauX

Senior Audioholic
Ahh ok, thanks. So 30 degrees on each side of directly on-axis. That helps a ton. Puts a lot of this to rest for me.

Just thinking of how I want to arrange things in a new room I have on the horizon dedicated to this. It will be a bigger room and so I want to take advantage of some seating options for the family (4 of us total). My current center is a vertical tower, identical to my left and right mains. I was just trying to get an idea of distances so I could keep everyone on-axis in a larger room, a bit farther from the speakers, or if needed, closer to minimize power needs without putting ourselves in the middle of a rectangle room. The room will be around 22~24 feet x 16~18 feet, so I was thinking of using it as a long rectangle and sit off center either closer to the front stage or a bit behind center. So just thinking out loud and preparing.

But validating that it's 30 degrees on each side helps a ton. I was worried my center approach currently needed to be bigger, so was curious where all the monster center channels were. And then I was wondering, well, how much on-axis difference is there between a horizontal and vertical speaker, as in, does a vertical speaker have less, etc.

Thanks!

Very best,
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
The stand is not doing a lot as the TV is not one of those plasma sets. My 50" Panasonic plasma weighs 80 lbs.
50"? My 42" weighs that much. I don't know how much my 65" weighs, but my 65" OLED is basically a piece of glass with a base. I'd rather it be heavy than feel like it's about to snap in half if I sneeze to hard in its general direction. :oops:

Plus, I was more talking about what's under the center being heavy. :)
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
@MalVeauX
What are your front 3, please?

I'm not experienced in designing for multiple rows, and am uncertain how that really impacts things. I'm assuming you may want some extra seats, too for if you have some guests?
I have seen many discuss having some space in front to let kids hang out with bean bag chairs and what not...

Anyway, you nailed one important aspect which is understanding that a balnce needs to be achieved between size of room and power handling. In some regards, this is why Speakers like Perlisten and JTR/RTJ exist compared to your more standard consumer fare. Especially if your goal is to have the headroom available to replicate a movie theater reference level experience.
 
MalVeauX

MalVeauX

Senior Audioholic
@MalVeauX
What are your front 3, please?

I'm not experienced in designing for multiple rows, and am uncertain how that really impacts things. I'm assuming you may want some extra seats, too for if you have some guests?
I have seen many discuss having some space in front to let kids hang out with bean bag chairs and what not...

Anyway, you nailed one important aspect which is understanding that a balnce needs to be achieved between size of room and power handling. In some regards, this is why Speakers like Perlisten and JTR/RTJ exist compared to your more standard consumer fare. Especially if your goal is to have the headroom available to replicate a movie theater reference level experience.
My current home theater speakers are nothing special, some old Polk M70 II towers. They're probably regarded as garbage by most people around here, but they've been pumping good audio for movies for us for over 10 years without any fancy amps off AVRs, they're about 90db sensitivity. I don't consider home theater to be a "critical listening" experience, mostly the big loud fun of a theater, so big speakers and some subs to bang out the fun without being crazy expensive. I run 4x 12" subs because I got them on heavy discounts (Polk PSW505's and BIC F12's). My other speakers for theater are an assortment, I have 4x M50's as extra towers as well as several pairs of M40's and M30's that I can use for surrounds, rears, heights, atmos, etc. I got a ton of these 10 years ago when Newegg was basically having a close out sale on them and they've been in constant use for a decade and have held up great despite being "trash." I generally don't care about all the extra stuff beyond 5.1 and 7.1 with respect to surround because all my content is AC3 5.1 or stereo. All DVD and streaming basically. I don't have blurrays or anything more. I'll continue to use a TV as it's just better contrast and simpler for us for gaming and movies with the kids and big TVs are affordable. Not quite ready for a projector.

My stereo setup is more for critical listening and I'm using a pair of Dennis Murphy crossovers in my Philharmonics with a integrated amp and tube based DAC. I have this in a separate space and this is strictly for my general music listening and for watching things privately in its own space with my workstation.

Anyhow, we are in a small home at the moment on lots of property out in the country side of Florida and soon to put a larger home on this property (we didn't have kids when we first moved here). So if we're going up to a larger home, I'm going to make sure I get a dedicated room for theater and games and so will close off and finish a two car garage to become a 2nd great room that will be closed off and dedicated to big home audio. I won't be changing out the speakers at this time, they're working and sound great for movies, as again, it's not critical listening, it's about the loud booms and larger than life experience and these M70 II towers are sensitive and get loud easy. It got me thinking more about center channels because with more space, I have the option to expand seating.

So yea the idea being how much more seating can I manage. I'll ideally want a sofa for front seating and will throw some bean bag types for the kids to move around with. But I may opt for a 2nd row on a raised platform for when the inlaws or a friend or parent is over and we want to watch something loud and things go rumble and boom.

But because its theater, I've just been thinking more about that center channel. My current tower does fine and will probably do ok for this new room. But it had me thinking about a bigger center. And of course when you go looking around, you mostly find these tiny little horizontal things being called a center in a series, expensive ones even, and I know enough to know that most of those designs are fairly not ideal and having lobbing issues (which is why I have a vertical tower as a center). But I don't know about some of the bigger, higher end massive centers, hence this thread.

If and when I change up my front stage, my current targets are 1099's or some PSA MTM-210-M's. Most probably the PSA's because its hard to get parts for a 1099 setup. My goal is to keep things sensitive so I can run things from mid-tier or high-tier AVR and avoid needing separates and just have a hot cooking room in Florida and fight my AC. And I was going to add two Marty Subs from GSG but they're not producing flat packs at the moment, so I will likely go with HSU Reseach subs (VTF3 MK5's x 2).

Very best,
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
My current home theater speakers are nothing special, some old Polk M70 II towers. They're probably regarded as garbage by most people around here, but they've been pumping good audio for movies for us for over 10 years without any fancy amps off AVRs, they're about 90db sensitivity. I don't consider home theater to be a "critical listening" experience, mostly the big loud fun of a theater, so big speakers and some subs to bang out the fun without being crazy expensive. I run 4x 12" subs because I got them on heavy discounts (Polk PSW505's and BIC F12's). My other speakers for theater are an assortment, I have 4x M50's as extra towers as well as several pairs of M40's and M30's that I can use for surrounds, rears, heights, atmos, etc. I got a ton of these 10 years ago when Newegg was basically having a close out sale on them and they've been in constant use for a decade and have held up great despite being "trash." I generally don't care about all the extra stuff beyond 5.1 and 7.1 with respect to surround because all my content is AC3 5.1 or stereo. All DVD and streaming basically. I don't have blurrays or anything more. I'll continue to use a TV as it's just better contrast and simpler for us for gaming and movies with the kids and big TVs are affordable. Not quite ready for a projector.

My stereo setup is more for critical listening and I'm using a pair of Dennis Murphy crossovers in my Philharmonics with a integrated amp and tube based DAC. I have this in a separate space and this is strictly for my general music listening and for watching things privately in its own space with my workstation.

Anyhow, we are in a small home at the moment on lots of property out in the country side of Florida and soon to put a larger home on this property (we didn't have kids when we first moved here). So if we're going up to a larger home, I'm going to make sure I get a dedicated room for theater and games and so will close off and finish a two car garage to become a 2nd great room that will be closed off and dedicated to big home audio. I won't be changing out the speakers at this time, they're working and sound great for movies, as again, it's not critical listening, it's about the loud booms and larger than life experience and these M70 II towers are sensitive and get loud easy. It got me thinking more about center channels because with more space, I have the option to expand seating.

So yea the idea being how much more seating can I manage. I'll ideally want a sofa for front seating and will throw some bean bag types for the kids to move around with. But I may opt for a 2nd row on a raised platform for when the inlaws or a friend or parent is over and we want to watch something loud and things go rumble and boom.

But because its theater, I've just been thinking more about that center channel. My current tower does fine and will probably do ok for this new room. But it had me thinking about a bigger center. And of course when you go looking around, you mostly find these tiny little horizontal things being called a center in a series, expensive ones even, and I know enough to know that most of those designs are fairly not ideal and having lobbing issues (which is why I have a vertical tower as a center). But I don't know about some of the bigger, higher end massive centers, hence this thread.

If and when I change up my front stage, my current targets are 1099's or some PSA MTM-210-M's. Most probably the PSA's because its hard to get parts for a 1099 setup. My goal is to keep things sensitive so I can run things from mid-tier or high-tier AVR and avoid needing separates and just have a hot cooking room in Florida and fight my AC. And I was going to add two Marty Subs from GSG but they're not producing flat packs at the moment, so I will likely go with HSU Reseach subs (VTF3 MK5's x 2).

Very best,
Your current polk towers are fine. Better than fine IMHO. I really like the way a lot of polks in that price range sound. Not bad at all for the money.

I will say that once you have cabinet towers in the front, nothing will ever be as good. Trust me.

I'm still trying to nail down my own sub upgrade so right there with you on what to do. Sucks that GSG is having supply issues, but that's how it is now sadly.

I also have two rows and have since I had a theater in my other house. It's really where it's at honestly. Not much makes a theater "feel" like a theater. Kids love the raised seats now that they're a bit older.

I've got an AT (acoustically transparent) screen and won't ever have a theater without one again. I wanted to go all towers behind it like I had in the old theater, but space didn't let me.

Next theater will be all towers again. No substitute for that.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Your current polk towers are fine. Better than fine IMHO. I really like the way a lot of polks in that price range sound. Not bad at all for the money.

I will say that once you have cabinet towers in the front, nothing will ever be as good. Trust me.

I'm still trying to nail down my own sub upgrade so right there with you on what to do. Sucks that GSG is having supply issues, but that's how it is now sadly.

I also have two rows and have since I had a theater in my other house. It's really where it's at honestly. Not much makes a theater "feel" like a theater. Kids love the raised seats now that they're a bit older.

I've got an AT (acoustically transparent) screen and won't ever have a theater without one again. I wanted to go all towers behind it like I had in the old theater, but space didn't let me.

Next theater will be all towers again. No substitute for that.
The GSG problem will pass. Perhaps @JasonGSG can give an update, please? :D
 

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