Where are the BIG center channels?

Mark E. Long

Mark E. Long

Audioholic General
I actually have enough room for those...
Me too lol I found a pair with in driving distance for 4.500 bucks well it’s a 4 hour drive from me to the coast but ooh the possibility’s .
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
I also have three identical speakers for the front channels:
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
I also have three identical speakers for the front channels:
Yep me 2

20210403_230052 (1).jpg


I think we cheated!!!!

I haven't done a center channel in years of course being terminally single does have at least a few advantages

:D
 
Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Samurai
Man! You guys got some very nice gear and setup right! Sweet indeed! Enjoy fellas! :)
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
In answer to your question, the center channel normally handles voice. It is placed very near the screen to insure that the voice and the image of the speaker arrive from the same direction. Music, sound effects etc. are generally reproduced by the stereo speaker pair, sub woofer and the surround speakers. So center channel doesn't require a full range speaker because voice isn't full range. That is why they are smaller.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
In answer to your question, the center channel normally handles voice. It is placed very near the screen to insure that the voice and the image of the speaker arrive from the same direction. Music, sound effects etc. are generally reproduced by the stereo speaker pair, sub woofer and the surround speakers. So center channel doesn't require a full range speaker because voice isn't full range. That is why they are smaller.
Your info is inexact. Whether it is for reproducing concerts or films, the center speaker frequently has to handle more power than the front left and right speakers. For this reason, three identical speakers at the front are ideal.

Surround speakers don't receive much power, only a few watts on the average in a typical home system.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Hey all,

It seems to be conventional wisdom that in home theater the center channel is the most important speaker in your system. Yet it seems to be dwarfed in general in even high end and mid-tier lines by their mains and only large compared to perhaps the satellites meant for surround duty. I realize it presents a challenge for most spaces to have an enormous center with access to such expansive large large these days, and of course the projector setups. Other than doing a false wall and/or screen setup which is also not possible for most people in their homes. But barring all that, still, where are the big center channels? Even from a sensitivity standpoint, they use smaller cabinets and smaller woofers.

I currently use a 3rd identical floor standing tower speaker as my mains, so my front stage are three of the same speaker. This of course puts a big challenge on wall space for a screen and limits screen size. I can either just deal with a high on the wall smaller display, or I can do a false wall and screen (and lose a few feet in the room), but I'm not looking to do a projector at this time. Or, I could explore a big center channel that is horizontal. Just keep running into most lines being small. Maybe it doesn't matter? I'm just thinking out loud at this point.

I love the look of various lines, but I like the sensitivity and size of something like PowerSoundAudio despite their utilitarian appearance.

Anyone have a huge center channel and how did you balance your display size and spacing? Or is everyone using a smaller center and they're happy with it horizontally in a home theater context and looking for bigger, or satisfied?

Very best,
You have my sympathy. Centers are an absolute nightmare, in terms of design, aesthetics, installation and function.

Honestly I don't think there is a commercial sub that satisfies all of the above.

First challenge:- Designing a speaker with outstanding high quality, intelligible speech through out the room, and having enough spl. to match or exceed the left and right speakers. It must also be an exemplary speaker with uniform FR on and off axis.

Aesthetics: - It must be visually appealing as it is always in sight.

Installation challenge. Making something not awkward, and with safe installation. With large screens the speaker gets to low, or the screen too high making neat above screen installation the preferred option, unless you can use the acoustically transparent screen option.

So horizontal MTM fails due to very poor dispersion off axis, and enhanced floor reflections due excess dispersion in the vertical plane which reduces speech intelligibility.

The speaker was be as coherent as possible to have good speech clarity.

Options are for three ways with vertical tweeter mid. The problem this does lead to a speaker that is too tall to be ideal if placed above or over a TV. This makes the poor horizontal MTM approach the more prevalent design, in addition to cost.

This is where function and aesthetics get into harmony. The optimal solution I am certain is a coaxial design or a good full ranger. I don't know of a good driver that is full range with enough power handling for most applications. However for smaller room, especially apartments they are around, and I did it successfully at our the condo we had.

For a neat situation an in wall, or better still ,a through wall design is optimal. I have done both. It is the center that with what is available currently ONLY the DIY home builder can satisfy the criteria I have set out above. If you are able building your center will allow you to get things really correct.

The optimal solution is a coaxial center.

My final solution, was to go for an in wall design. This is preferable to in wall which is second best. The reason is that it significantly reduces the troublesome flat wall large baffle problems

I built my design around this driver. This driver is ideal for TL, but models well in ported and sealed solutions.



This is a potent driver that can handle 200 watts continuous power. A SEAS crossover has subsequently become available.



Now I did have a tweeter fail, and had to repair a driver, so I redesigned the high pass crossover to third order. I have had no trouble now in years of use, and I have powered it hard.

Now I used two of these drivers, as with through wall baffle step compensation is required. Mine is active and variable to optimize it, but it could easily be passive. However the bi-amp design significantly increases spl.

The other issue, is that with coaxial speaker designs tend to have cancelling reflections from the cone. I was able to design and build a passive equalizing network utilizing the tweeter in the BSC fill driver. I would be happy to share the design with any of you. So he design is an unusual 2.5.5 way.

So this is the TL enclosure.



Installation at Benedict.



Here at Eagan.







Here is the on axis FR in the Benedict MN room



Axis FR in Eagan MN room.



Here is the waterfall plot.



These are the off axis responses as far lateral I could get given the through wall installation. The blue line is as far lateral as I good get. This data explains why this unit covers the room evenly and one seat is as good as the next.



Although the left and right speakers use totally different drivers, the fact that all the front speakers have very flat FR on and off axis means all three speakers match perfectly. The front stage is seamless. As I keep saying, timbre matching is more correctly called error matching. Another way of putting is to make sure that the front three are equally lousy in identical fashion.

In summary, I am yet to hear a better center speaker than this one, especially in terms of clear, natural speech, excellent music quality and even coverage of the listening area of the room.

I will certainly be happy to assist any member that want to build a center along these lines. I think this has been the most difficult design I have undertaken. Although the right and left are more complex their design was easier and they were dead right from the start. This center was more problematic in its development. I well understand why many centers fall well short of the mark, on multiple counts. Center speakers are just very difficult to design properly.
 
MalVeauX

MalVeauX

Senior Audioholic
You have my sympathy. Centers are an absolute nightmare, in terms of design, aesthetics, installation and

hear a better center speaker than this one, especially in terms of clear, natural speech, excellent music quality and even coverage of the listening area of the room.

I will certainly be happy to assist any member that want to build a center along these lines. I think this has been the most difficult design I have undertaken. Although the right and left are more complex their design was easier and they were dead right from the start. This center was more problematic in its development. I well understand why many centers fall well short of the mark, on multiple counts. Center speakers are just very difficult to design properly.
Thanks; great information and definitely sums up the issue I'm seeing, where market seems to just favor a design that isn't really working well, but yet still is prevalent. I've been using a standard floor standing vertical speaker as center for years now due to this. Was just curious if anything has finally emerged in 2022. I can put together a kit, but I've never done a scratch build. Otherwise, I would love to just put together an entire fleet. I've done flat pack kits and assembled and stuff, but that's it, I'm definitely not an engineer for cabinets and speaker design in general. My most recent was assembling some Philharmonic monitors, but all I did was put it together. I have seen a few good examples of point source coxial drivers it seems, so I may have to just explore that. Or just keep using a vertical speaker as center and get creative with display. Display up high isn't so bad, unless you're sitting up close out of necessity depending on rows.

Very best,
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks; great information and definitely sums up the issue I'm seeing, where market seems to just favor a design that isn't really working well, but yet still is prevalent. I've been using a standard floor standing vertical speaker as center for years now due to this. Was just curious if anything has finally emerged in 2022. I can put together a kit, but I've never done a scratch build. Otherwise, I would love to just put together an entire fleet. I've done flat pack kits and assembled and stuff, but that's it, I'm definitely not an engineer for cabinets and speaker design in general. My most recent was assembling some Philharmonic monitors, but all I did was put it together. I have seen a few good examples of point source coxial drivers it seems, so I may have to just explore that. Or just keep using a vertical speaker as center and get creative with display. Display up high isn't so bad, unless you're sitting up close out of necessity depending on rows.

Very best,
There are lots of C & C cabinet shops about now. If you talk to them nicely, they will cut out your boards in literally minutes, and then you will have your own flat packs. DIY is easier than ever now. One thing to remember about center speakers, it is important to have one speaker covering as much of the speech discrimination band as possible. The SEAS I use is crossed at 2.5KHz. I wish it would go to 3.0 or 3.5 KHz but it won't. That is one advantage of a three way center design. You can get mids to cover the whole speech discrimination band. Manufacturers more often than not don't, which seriously reduces their capability especially as far as speech discrimination is concerned.

This center for my great room has a mid covering 400 Hz to 4 KHz. The 10" woofer below is the sub driver in a TL.



Overall though the studio center through wall center is the better speaker. Both have clear dialog, but the coaxial design has the more natural speech. This is in many ways due to the TL design I suspect. Properly designed TLs have incredibly low coloration, especially in the lower end of the male voice.
 
MalVeauX

MalVeauX

Senior Audioholic
Hrm,

I just went creeping around and was thinking of the 1099 DIY speaker and looking if something similar has been designed for a center but I guess ultimately the 1099 is a center, just vertical. The problem of course remains, big speaker in the middle takes up space and doesn't fit with large TV, so maybe the big center is only going to work with a projector and acoustic screen.

Very best,
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Thanks; great information and definitely sums up the issue I'm seeing, where market seems to just favor a design that isn't really working well, but yet still is prevalent. I've been using a standard floor standing vertical speaker as center for years now due to this. Was just curious if anything has finally emerged in 2022. I can put together a kit, but I've never done a scratch build. Otherwise, I would love to just put together an entire fleet. I've done flat pack kits and assembled and stuff, but that's it, I'm definitely not an engineer for cabinets and speaker design in general. My most recent was assembling some Philharmonic monitors, but all I did was put it together. I have seen a few good examples of point source coxial drivers it seems, so I may have to just explore that. Or just keep using a vertical speaker as center and get creative with display. Display up high isn't so bad, unless you're sitting up close out of necessity depending on rows.

Very best,
In the "for what it's worth" department, I have an in-wall speaker above the TV in one of my systems. I angled the speaker so it points down directly at the viewing position (the sofa in my living room). Initially I was concerned that the location above the TV would result in a perception that the sound was coming from above the TV. However, this has not been an issue at all. It is almost impossible (at least for me) to discern that the source of the sound is actually above the TV, even though I know it is.

Having said that, although the positioning of the center channel has not been an issue, it's a very modest system with Aperion in-wall FCL speakers so the sound is not exceptional due to the limitations of these speakers. I don't know of any commercially available in-wall speakers that could be mounted above a TV and avoid lobing issues, etc. (they might exist, I just don't know of any). Thus, I doubt that this type of center setup is a "solution" if you're looking to match large LR towers.

At the risk of derailing this thread, although the conventional wisdom that identical LCR speakers are optimum makes sense as a general matter, I find myself wondering if it really makes as much difference if the LR speakers are large towers. In other words, given that the direction of bass frequency sources is difficult to perceive, is there really enough bass content in the center channel to make it worthwhile to match the bass response of large towers in a center channel? I have never tried identical LCR towers, so I don't know how much difference it actually makes. This is more or less a question for the guys who do have large LCR towers?
 
MalVeauX

MalVeauX

Senior Audioholic
At the risk of derailing this thread, although the conventional wisdom that identical LCR speakers are optimum makes sense as a general matter, I find myself wondering if it really makes as much difference if the LR speakers are large towers. In other words, given that the direction of bass frequency sources is difficult to perceive, is there really enough bass content in the center channel to make it worthwhile to match the bass response of large towers in a center channel? I have never tried identical LCR towers, so I don't know how much difference it actually makes. This is more or less a question for the guys who do have large LCR towers?
I think that's a fair question, we can't all try lots of combinations to get an idea of this and without metrics it's just a dull ear game of opinions. Then again, I've mixed speakers and it didn't bother me in a theater setup. I'm primarily a stereo listener almost all the time on practically everything. I'm only even talking about this currently since a center only is a thing for multi-channel audio and movies and of that, for me, it's only going to be legacy DVD movies (I don't have Bluray, we stream, but it's mostly just stereo content).

But it does beg the question, do we need huge L/R mains in theater? Shouldn't a huge center be more important (just impractical for placement with screen options) and the L/R really are not needing to be monstrous as they're meant to be paired with subwoofers (again, assumed, for theater purpose). Depends on the room mostly and the subs probably.

Very best,
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
Hrm,

I just went creeping around and was thinking of the 1099 DIY speaker and looking if something similar has been designed for a center but I guess ultimately the 1099 is a center, just vertical. The problem of course remains, big speaker in the middle takes up space and doesn't fit with large TV, so maybe the big center is only going to work with a projector and acoustic screen.

Very best,
Have a look at my system. If I had a bigger room, I could install an 80" TV set without any problem. I have a 15" sub working as a woofer in each front cabinet. Each one digs down to below 20 Hz:
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
My LCR in my previous theater were all Andrew Jones Pioneer towers and it was great. A lot of bass from the front in that theater.

Now I have in-wall LCR from speakercraft and they're no slouch, but in the bass department. With a sub in each corner of the room it's nice and even, but I won't ever have mismatched speakers for LCR in the theater again.

Also won't go without an AT screen. Something to be said when the sound comes directly from the screen.

They don't sound as good as @Danzilla31 or @Pogre systems though. Cabinet speakers are still the best.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
In the "for what it's worth" department, I have an in-wall speaker above the TV in one of my systems. I angled the speaker so it points down directly at the viewing position (the sofa in my living room). Initially I was concerned that the location above the TV would result in a perception that the sound was coming from above the TV. However, this has not been an issue at all. It is almost impossible (at least for me) to discern that the source of the sound is actually above the TV, even though I know it is.

Having said that, although the positioning of the center channel has not been an issue, it's a very modest system with Aperion in-wall FCL speakers so the sound is not exceptional due to the limitations of these speakers. I don't know of any commercially available in-wall speakers that could be mounted above a TV and avoid lobing issues, etc. (they might exist, I just don't know of any). Thus, I doubt that this type of center setup is a "solution" if you're looking to match large LR towers.

At the risk of derailing this thread, although the conventional wisdom that identical LCR speakers are optimum makes sense as a general matter, I find myself wondering if it really makes as much difference if the LR speakers are large towers. In other words, given that the direction of bass frequency sources is difficult to perceive, is there really enough bass content in the center channel to make it worthwhile to match the bass response of large towers in a center channel? I have never tried identical LCR towers, so I don't know how much difference it actually makes. This is more or less a question for the guys who do have large LCR towers?
The answer depends on where you cross. I run all my speakers full range except the ceiling speakers crossed at 100 Hz with the sub feed set to 40 Hz, LFE + Main to all the rest. That gives the best sound and measurements by far. However that takes seven really capable speakers, so not for mass consumption. The rear backs are virtually full range. They have excellent response to 20 Hz pretty flat to 27 Hz and then only 12 db per octave roll off. The surrounds have an f3 of 52 Hz again with 12 db per octave roll off. So good output to 30 Hz. All are high powered speakers, and actively biamped or triamped except the surrounds and ceiling speakers.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I think that's a fair question, we can't all try lots of combinations to get an idea of this and without metrics it's just a dull ear game of opinions. Then again, I've mixed speakers and it didn't bother me in a theater setup. I'm primarily a stereo listener almost all the time on practically everything. I'm only even talking about this currently since a center only is a thing for multi-channel audio and movies and of that, for me, it's only going to be legacy DVD movies (I don't have Bluray, we stream, but it's mostly just stereo content).

But it does beg the question, do we need huge L/R mains in theater? Shouldn't a huge center be more important (just impractical for placement with screen options) and the L/R really are not needing to be monstrous as they're meant to be paired with subwoofers (again, assumed, for theater purpose). Depends on the room mostly and the subs probably.

Very best,
The answer is that you actually need capable speakers in all locations. The ceilings do not need a huge bass response, but they do need a very good response otherwise.

The center is a huge problem, as it can not be huge, but must have good output, be very neutral and a good bass response to the 40 to 50 Hz range.

When you create a high quality and perfectly balanced ambient field then you can impose the acoustic of the venue on your room, if it is an inherently good room. This is where the Dolby DD upmixer can produce exceedingly realistic results.
 
NINaudio

NINaudio

Audioholic Samurai
My center is similar in design to what @Pogre has. Same mid and tweet as my mains, but my woofers (5.5") are smaller than the ones in the corresponding towers (7.5"). It necessitated me getting new furniture that would accommodate it's weight.







I had strongly considered getting 3 identical towers across the front, but the wife nixed that idea.
 
Last edited:
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
My center is similar in design to what @Pogre has. Same mid and tweet, but my woofers (5.5") are smaller than the ones in the corresponding towers (7.5").





So hot! I love your Speakers! Your photo almost makes them look like they have a hint of purple to them.
 
NINaudio

NINaudio

Audioholic Samurai
So hot! I love your Speakers! Your photo almost makes them look like they have a hint of purple to them.
Thanks! It took me quite a while to decide on which finish I wanted. It was a tougher choice than the actual speakers themselves! :D
 
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