Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Thanks for those links. The two 'News & Views' articles from Nature and Nature Medicine were good. I was glad to see how investigators are trying to evaluate both T-cell and antibody responses. One of these days, I will try to explain the importance of both, in plain words. It's not easy.
I'm really curious about the reported differences between the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. I had thought they coded for identical spike proteins but perhaps this is not the case?
I also thought that both had identical code for the spike protein. But important differences between the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines probably reside as other differences besides the spike protein sequence – differences that result in how long the spike protein mRNA remains stable after injection. If one resists degradation better than the other, this can result in more potent or longer lasting immunity, even though both have the same code for spike. These differences can be mRNA sequences upstream or downstream from the spike code itself, as well as different components of the lipid envelope/nanoparticle.

I say 'probably' because I have no direct info on this. Modifications and additives that provide greater stability are almost always proprietary, highly guarded secrets in the vaccine industry. Moderna has been doing research on the stability problem for at least a decade. Pfizer teamed with the small BioNTech to use the results of their research.

The idea of using mRNA coding for a viral protein instead of using the viral proteins themselves (after laborious purification), was discovered in the mid 1990s – about 25 years ago. In trying to develop practical vaccines with mRNA, it was quickly found that the mRNA was rapidly degraded after injection. Over the last 2 decades, much effort has been put into finding ways to stabilize the mRNA. Much of this research was financially supported by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, led by Anthony Fauci. So, I bristle when I hear uninformed critics say this is new and untested technology. It isn't new or untested – it's the result of intensive and careful research & development for over 20 years.
 
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Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Thanks for those links. The two 'News & Views' articles from Nature and Nature Medicine were good. I was glad to see how investigators are trying to evaluate both T-cell and antibody responses. One of these days, I will try to explain the importance of both, in plain words. It's not easy.
I also thought that both had identical code for the spike protein. But important differences between the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines probably reside as other differences besides the spike protein sequence – differences that result in how long the spike protein mRNA remains stable after injection. If one resists degradation better than the other, this can result in more potent or longer lasting immunity, even though both have the same code for spike. These differences can be mRNA sequences upstream or downstream from the spike code itself, as well as different components of the lipid envelope/nanoparticle.

I say 'probably' because I have no direct info on this. Modifications and additives that provide greater stability are almost always proprietary, highly guarded secrets in the vaccine industry. Moderna has been doing research on the stability problem for at least a decade. Pfizer teamed with the small BioNTech to use the results of their research.

The idea of using mRNA coding for a viral protein instead of using the viral proteins themselves (after laborious purification), was discovered in the mid 1990s – about 25 years ago. In trying to develop practical vaccines with mRNA, it was quickly found that the mRNA was rapidly degraded after injection. Over the last 2 decades, much effort has been put into finding ways to stabilize the mRNA. Much of this research was financially supported by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, led by Anthony Fauci. So, I bristle when I hear uninformed critics say this is new and untested technology. It isn't new or untested – it's the result of intensive and careful research & development for over 20 years.
Really good info last couple pages getting up to speed. Thanks guys

Man one thing you guys brought up is China's culpability. It made me think what really could we do?

A country of over a billion they have nukes and they're military is getting stronger and stronger

Heck they are getting stronger and stronger in just about every way you can think education economics science technology. They'd be difficult to really stop now in a few years I don't even think it's possible.

Seriously even if the world found something out do you really want to risk another world war with a nuclear power?

What to do about China and the problems they pose to the world is a whole thread in itself but on the Covid side you guys just really got me thinking

I mean what could we really do sooner or later they're going after Taiwan and there's nothing we could do to stop them right now.

What makes us think we could stop them on an even larger scale conflict
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Two more things

Work amd school already requires vaccines for lots of stuff

I've heard some arguments saying it's not totally FDA approved @Swerd do you anything about those types of arguments

Personally it still blows my mind how many won't get vaccinated I mean countries definetly want to get back on track. Do we really think scientists would f this up when they roll it out. The backlash to vaccination would be catastrophic. They had to get this right as best they could and for the record I think they did

Also for the far right if Trump really did do the so called Operation Warp Speed why wouldn't you not want to take it? Didn't he by doing this endorse they're validity so to say by pushing for them?

Also stuff like the government will use the info to track you. That's ridiculous they don't need to. Everybody already has a tracking device it's called a dang cell phone

Some of the arguments against vaccines don't even make logical sense. This isn't the early 1900's where people were just trying to figure things out scientists have gotten pretty damn good at this in over a hundred years
 
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Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Second thing my dad just got Covid he got it when my parents went back to Red River a town of like 500 up in the mountains crazy figured he'd catch it here when they were staying with me for my mom's surgery

First we've all been vaccinated he's 78 with blood pressure issues and all it did was give him a minor cold. So thank you vaccines!!!!

Second

It was a breakthrough infection he thinks he got it meeting with the towns board members at a meeting

They all weren't wearing masks so vaccinated or not keep on the masks and some distancing until we can get past this Delta variant

Although I'm starting to get worried Covid like the flu might just be here to stay
 
Kvn_Walker

Kvn_Walker

Audioholic Field Marshall
I've heard some arguments saying it's not totally FDA approved Swerd do you anything about those types of arguments
It wasn't addressed to me, but I guarantee you a large chunk of those same folks will immediately find another excuse not to get vaccinated once FDA approval does happen. EUA is nothing more than today's convenient bogeyman.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Thanks for those links. The two 'News & Views' articles from Nature and Nature Medicine were good. I was glad to see how investigators are trying to evaluate both T-cell and antibody responses. One of these days, I will try to explain the importance of both, in plain words. It's not easy.
I also thought that both had identical code for the spike protein. But important differences between the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines probably reside as other differences besides the spike protein sequence – differences that result in how long the spike protein mRNA remains stable after injection. If one resists degradation better than the other, this can result in more potent or longer lasting immunity, even though both have the same code for spike. These differences can be mRNA sequences upstream or downstream from the spike code itself, as well as different components of the lipid envelope/nanoparticle.

I say 'probably' because I have no direct info on this. Modifications and additives that provide greater stability are almost always proprietary, highly guarded secrets in the vaccine industry. Moderna has been doing research on the stability problem for at least a decade. Pfizer teamed with the small BioNTech to use the results of their research.

The idea of using mRNA coding for a viral protein instead of using the viral proteins themselves (after laborious purification), was discovered in the mid 1990s – about 25 years ago. In trying to develop practical vaccines with mRNA, it was quickly found that the mRNA was rapidly degraded after injection. Over the last 2 decades, much effort has been put into finding ways to stabilize the mRNA. Much of this research was financially supported by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, led by Anthony Fauci. So, I bristle when I hear uninformed critics say this is new and untested technology. It isn't new or untested – it's the result of intensive and careful research & development for over 20 years.
Mixing AZ/Pfizer/Moderna vaccines was approved at the beginning of June and I have not seen or heard of any side effects (beyond those associated with the individual vaccines), so far. However, although approved, I don't know how much mixing has occurred in practice. I know that a great number of people - including myself - received Astra Zeneca for the first dose, followed by one of the mRNA vaccines (Pfizer, in my case). But, I don't know anyone who received one of the mRNA vaccines as a first dose, followed by a dose of the other mRNA vaccine.

The policy is to administer two doses of the same mRNA vaccine, if availability is not a concern. If the same vaccine is not available when the second dose is due, the other mRNA vaccine is acceptable. It's clear that the motivation for this policy was to vaccinate Canadians the "fastest with the mostest", which has clearly been a success when you look at the numbers alone. I have not been able to find any statistics on the actual numbers of mixed doses, although I would expect that each provincial and territorial health department is compiling that data.

The only fallout I've seen so far is that most other countries are not recognizing mixed doses, which affects Canadians wanting to travel internationally. If longer term data show that the effectiveness of mixed doses is similar to unmixed doses, I would expect that problem to fall by the wayside. It's not a concern for me, as I have no intention to travel abroad anytime soon. In the meantime, I have friends grumbling about it...first world problems.:rolleyes:
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
You just go done talking about resistance. I gave examples of how his premise is filled with lies.
I never wrote anything about agreeing with his stance, though. Resistance is good when it's needed but sometimes, it's best to go along when public health & safety are concerned even if the person disagrees with the policies.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I've heard some arguments saying it's not totally FDA approved @Swerd do you anything about those types of arguments?
Technically, the FDA gave the vaccines temporary approval, after very large clinical trials reported their efficacy and safety results after 2 months of post-vaccination monitoring. This was the so-called Emergency Use Authorization (EUA). The EUA will become full approval, or be withdrawn, based on the results of safety monitoring for one year post-vaccination. But the results of all three clinical trials (Pfizer, Moderna, and Johnson & Johnson) have been so good that it would take a huge amount of delayed toxicity or adverse events to cause withdrawal of the EUA. So far, that has not happened.
… my dad just got Covid he got it when my parents went back to Red River a town of like 500 up in the mountains crazy figured he'd catch it here when they were staying with me for my mom's surgery

First we've all been vaccinated he's 78 with blood pressure issues and all it did was give him a minor cold. So thank you vaccines!!!!
Glad to read that your dad had a mild case of Covid-19. And yes, the vaccines really do work. They're not the magic bullet that makes the virus disappear in a puff of smoke, but they do work.
Although I'm starting to get worried Covid like the flu might just be here to stay
Yes, I think you're right. In one form or another, this virus will be around for a very long time. It will keep mutating and evolving – hopefully becoming even more infectious, but less lethal.
Also for the far right if Trump really did do the so called Operation Warp Speed why wouldn't you not want to take it? Didn't he by doing this endorse they're validity so to say by pushing for them?
Correct again.

Before the vaccines were tested long enough for EUA, the right-wing complained how slow those FDA bureaucrats were working. So Trump claimed, falsely, that he shook things up with Warp Speed. Truth is, the FDA intended all along to push the EUA as soon as possible. Those three clinical trials began in August 2020. In late November the Pfizer and Moderna trials were done. The FDA granted EUAs for them in December. The EUA for the J&J vaccine came a few months later, March or April 2021. That is fast. The previous record for development, testing, and approval was 5 years for an Ebola vaccine.

As you can see, the right-wing has taken both sides. First they wanted the FDA to abandon any efforts at rational testing of the vaccines (or other anti-viral drugs – remember hydroxychloroquine?). Then, after Trump decided to oppose vaccinations because Covid-19 might keep the November election voter turn-out low, they used the temporary nature of EUA as an excuse to avoid vaccination. As @Kvn_Walker pointed out, as soon as the temporary EUA becomes a full approval, they'll trump up some other ridiculous reason to oppose vaccination.

I think opposing vaccination is selfish and foolish – even unpatriotic. During the Revolutionary War, George Washington ordered the Continental Army to get immunized against small pox. This was in 1777.
… Despite the mortality rate [of early versions of smallpox vaccinations], Washington did curb the spread of smallpox, which had plagued the Continental Army since the American Revolution had begun in 1775. In January 1777, Washington had ordered mass inoculation of his troops, but a year later at Valley Forge, smallpox broke out again. An investigation uncovered that 3,000–4,000 troops had not received inoculations, despite having long-term enlistments. So, Washington ordered inoculations for any soldiers vulnerable to the disease.
 
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Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Technically, the FDA gave the vaccines temporary approval, after very large clinical trials reported their efficacy results and safety results after 2 months of post-vaccination monitoring. This was the so-called Emergency Use Authorization (EUA). The EUA will be changed to full approval, or withdrawn, based on the results of safety monitoring for one year post-vaccination. But the results of all three clinical trials (Pfizer, Moderna, and Johnson & Johnson) were so good that it would take a huge amount of delayed toxicity or adverse events to cause withdrawal of the EUA. So far, that has not happened.
Glad to read that your dad had an easy-to-manage case of Covid-19. And yes, the vaccines really do work. They're not the magic bullet that makes the virus disappear in a puff of smoke, but they do work.
Yes, I think you're right. In one form or another, this virus will be around for a very long time. It will keep mutating and evolving – hopefully becoming even more infectious, but less lethal.
Correct again.

Before the vaccines were tested long enough for EUA, the right-wing complained how slow those FDA bureaucrats were working. So Trump claimed, falsely, that he shook things up with Warp Speed. Truth is, the FDA intended all along to push the EUA as soon as possible. Those three clinical trials began in August 2020. In late November the Pfizer and Moderna trials were done. The FDA granted EUAs for them in December. The EUA for the J&J vaccine came a few months later, March or April 2021. That is fast. The previous record for development, testing, and approval was 5 years for an Ebola vaccine.

As you can see, the right-wing is taking both sides at the same time. First they wanted the FDA to abandon any efforts at rational testing of the vaccines (or other anti-viral drugs – remember hydroxychloroquine?). Then, after Trump decided to oppose vaccinations because Covid-19 might keep the November election voter turn-out low, they used the temporary nature of emergency use approval as an excuse to avoid vaccination. As @Kvn_Walker pointed out, as soon as the temporary EUA becomes a full approval, they'll trump up some other ridiculous reason to oppose vaccination.

I think opposing vaccination is selfish and foolish – even unpatriotic. During the Revolutionary War, George Washington ordered the Continental Army to get immunized against small pox. This was in 1777.

Thanks for the information and the follow up. Really appreciate it
 
Kvn_Walker

Kvn_Walker

Audioholic Field Marshall
We all in good hands with Dr J Biden.
The previous first lady's claim to fame was stripping and soft porn. Don't hate on somebody who took the time to get educated. If you're gonna troll, try harder.
 
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Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
We all in good hands with Dr J Biden.
Look I'm not the biggest fan of this administration so far but what constructive purpose does this post do? This is exactly the tone deaf kindoff response that caused me to move from conservative to independent.

Any administration would have struggled in this pandemic were not the only country that's struggled with this pandemic.

Trump easily lost his 2nd term due to how he handled the pandemic.

Unfortunately this has been politicized but it's a virus it's a health issue. It's really bigger then party lines right now. Nothing anyone any administration can do is going to be perfect against this thing it will replicate and spread as best as it can all we can do is do our best to adjust to it.

And please don't start in on it was planned or Trumps election was stolen or any of the other bullsh$t that some conservatives seem to have fallen into.

It's embarrassing and it's the reason we lost the damn Senate race last year. I still have conservative values been conservative my whole life. Independent I still will lean that way. But these type of responses like yours especially about the Damn pandemic make it really hard to feel good about being conservative right now.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Look I'm not the biggest fan of this administration so far but what constructive purpose does this post do? This is exactly the tone deaf kindoff response that caused me to move from conservative to independent.

Any administration would have struggled in this pandemic were not the only country that's struggled with this pandemic.

Trump easily lost his 2nd term due to how he handled the pandemic.

Unfortunately this has been politicized but it's a virus it's a health issue. It's really bigger then party lines right now. Nothing anyone any administration can do is going to be perfect against this thing it will replicate and spread as best as it can all we can do is do our best to adjust to it.

And please don't start in on it was planned or Trumps election was stolen or any of the other bullsh$t that some conservatives seem to have fallen into.

It's embarrassing and it's the reason we lost the damn Senate race last year. I still have conservative values been conservative my whole life. Independent I still will lean that way. But these type of responses like yours especially about the Damn pandemic make it really hard to feel good about being conservative right now.
Some men feel extremely threatened by educated women. I guess he is very envious of a mother completing a doctorate at age 55 while he himself amounts to nothing in his impotence.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
I think opposing vaccination is selfish and foolish – even unpatriotic. During the Revolutionary War, George Washington ordered the Continental Army to get immunized against small pox. This was in 1777.
Interesting you mentioned this. I've noticed a few anti-mask/antivaccine types displaying the Gadsden "DON'T TREAD ON ME" flag (1775). I find myself wondering how many of them know that George Washington ordered immunization of his troops and also quarantined his troops (the effectiveness of the quarantine was doubtful, which apparently drove Washington to order innoculation despite the 5-10% fatality rate).


>>>Variolization still had a case fatality rate of 5 to 10 percent. And even if all went well, inoculated patients still needed a month to recover. The procedure was not only risky for the individual patient, but for the surrounding population. An inoculee with a mild case might feel well enough to walk around town, infecting countless others with potentially more serious infections.

When Washington weighed the risks at Boston in July 1775, he feared that a large-scale inoculation would sideline his troops, or worse, lead to a full-blown epidemic. So during the Siege of Boston, Washington opted for a strict quarantine of both sickened soldiers and civilians. Civilians showing smallpox symptoms were held in the town of Brookline, while military cases were sent to a quarantine hospital located at a pond near Cambridge. “No Person is to be allowed to go to Fresh-water pond a fishing or on any other occasion as there may be a danger of introducing the small pox into the army,” wrote Washington on July 4, 1775, his second official day as general.

The quarantine did its job, isolating the sick long enough for the British to surrender Boston. But as the fight for independence moved elsewhere, smallpox followed the American army like an unshakeable curse. . . . By the time America officially declared its independence on July 4, 1776, the effectiveness of quarantine was thrown into doubt and there was no easy way of calculating the risk of a mass inoculation of the beleaguered American troops. . . .
By the following winter, Washington and his troops were camped in Morristown, New Jersey, where the threat of smallpox was as dire as ever. America’s stoic general waffled back and forth on whether to inoculate or not, even making the mass inoculation order and then rescinding it. Finally, on February 5, 1777, he made the call in a letter to John Hancock, president of the Second Continental Congress.

“The small pox has made such Head in every Quarter that I find it impossible to keep it from spreading thro’ the whole Army in the natural way. I have therefore determined, not only to innoculate all the Troops now here, that have not had it, but shall order Docr. Shippen to innoculate the Recruits as fast as they come in to Philadelphia.”<<<


Quarantines are obviously not new, and fear of innoculation is also not new:

>>>Members of the English colonies as well as English officials were proactive in establishing quarantine guidelines in order to protect the public. One of the earliest recorded examples of this was a quarantine established in 1647 by Puritans in order to prevent the spread of disease from ships coming from the Caribbean. In 1731 an act, entitled "An Act to Prevent Persons From Concealing the Smallpox", was passed. This act made the heads of households mandatory reporters for smallpox; these individuals were required to report smallpox in their house to the selectmen of the Massachusetts Bay Colony. Infected households would then be indicated with the placement of a red flag. . . . At the time of its introduction, almost all colonists were extremely wary of this new medical procedure. It was difficult for them to understand how the infection of an otherwise healthy individual could have a positive outcome. However, inoculation saved many lives and may have protected the Continental Army from destruction. The smallpox inoculation program paved the way for the global public health system that is responsible for the control and eradication of many deadly diseases, including but not limited to polio, measles, and diphtheria. <<<


Apparently there is a controversy (as if we need more) about the meaning of the Gadsden flag:

 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Some men feel extremely threatened by educated women. I guess he is very envious of a mother completing a doctorate at age 55 while he himself amounts to nothing in his impotence.
I'm not going to label the person I don't even know him. He could be quiet successful for all I know. What I do know is he came onto this thread in the most confrontational way possible so I totally understand your reaction and others. You come at people swinging be ready to get swung on back

And I agree I think it's impressive the things she has done with her career a doctorate at 55 is very impressive. I really don't understand the personal attack against her he did as if this is all somehow her fault but it's whatever.

Too much insulting not enough conversation these days. We all gotta come together and I'm going to do my best to try to be a part of that.
 
Epsonfan

Epsonfan

Full Audioholic
Look I'm not the biggest fan of this administration so far but what constructive purpose does this post do? This is exactly the tone deaf kindoff response that caused me to move from conservative to independent.

Any administration would have struggled in this pandemic were not the only country that's struggled with this pandemic.

Trump easily lost his 2nd term due to how he handled the pandemic.

Unfortunately this has been politicized but it's a virus it's a health issue. It's really bigger then party lines right now. Nothing anyone any administration can do is going to be perfect against this thing it will replicate and spread as best as it can all we can do is do our best to adjust to it.

And please don't start in on it was planned or Trumps election was stolen or any of the other bullsh$t that some conservatives seem to have fallen into.

It's embarrassing and it's the reason we lost the damn Senate race last year. I still have conservative values been conservative my whole life. Independent I still will lean that way. But these type of responses like yours especially about the Damn pandemic make it really hard to feel good about being conservative right now.
Nice MSM talking points follow the herd Mitch.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Nice MSM talking points follow the herd Mitch.
Let's keep this to the point shall we? You want to start a thread on why some conservatives don't follow Trump put it up on the steam vent I'll gladly jump on board it would be a healthy conversation to have

Otherwise since this thread is for info about the virus and you seem to have nothing but insults to offer STFU you pu$$@y and stay the f$xk off this thread
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Yes, I think you're right. In one form or another, this virus will be around for a very long time. It will keep mutating and evolving – hopefully becoming even more infectious, but less lethal.
Do you have any thoughts on Muller's Ratchet vis-a-vis the coronavirus? Muller's Ratchet seems like a comforting notion, but I seem to recall seeing studies that both support and contradict it (I realize you were not alluding to Muller's Ratchet in your post)(unless perhaps I read it wrong?).


I ran across a paper about a "bottleneck hypothesis" but I have not read the paper yet and I'm posting the link merely as an FYI in case you're interested.

>>>If they undergo new mutations at each replication cycle, why are RNA viral genomes so fragile, with most mutations being either strongly deleterious or lethal? Here we provide theoretical and numerical evidence for the hypothesis that genetic fragility is partly an evolutionary response to the multiple population bottlenecks experienced by viral populations at various stages of their life cycles. Modelling within-host viral populations as multi-type branching processes, we show that mutational fragility lowers the rate at which Muller’s ratchet clicks and increases the survival probability through multiple bottlenecks. In the context of a susceptible-exposed-infectious-recovered epidemiological model, we find that the attack rate of fragile viral strains can exceed that of more robust strains, particularly at low infectivities and high mutation rates. Our findings highlight the importance of demographic events such as transmission bottlenecks in shaping the genetic architecture of viral pathogens.<<<

 
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